Contributing...

[CAV]

I'm the "champ of the masses" when it depends on feelings it seems...

I stand corrected, you are obviously a legend.

There are many boards out there giving paying members extra rights, no problem with that, I just reacted on the fact that "we" lost rights that others didn't.

First of all, I just don't understand why you think the ability to edit a post is your "right". I see it as a "privilege" (and a questionable one at that). This "privilege" was taken away from ALL members of this forum due to repeated abuse. At a later date, the propietor of this site decided to "give paying members extra" capabilities. According to your own words, you feel this is perfectly acceptable. Sooooo.......what are you complaining about? :shrugs:

Makes no sense.......

 

[Serpwidgets]

I understand Menhir's attempt to make the distinction between wordings. I can agree with that on some level, and I think there's been some over-reaction to that.

I'm not sure whether "rights" was meant in the way we all seemed to take it: "it is my God-given right to post here." (Which it isn't, it's private property, owned by Rich, so he is the one who grants rights for others to do things here.)

Personally, I'd love it if the site went to a "only paying members can post" setup. You can't really do that when a site is starting out. But now that it's well established, it would be nice if there were some nominal fee to keep out a large majority of trolls and such. (I consider $2 a month nominal, as a 12 year old I got more of an allowance than that, back in the olden days when two bucks would actually buy something.)

When I do the math I see:
A- the number of hours I have to work to pay $25 for one year of using this site, versus:
B- the number of hours Rich puts into setting up and maintaining this site every year.

I'm sure that B is many times greater than A. So IMO even if the site costs Rich nothing but his own time, he still deserves every penny of my contribution.

Freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me. And if you don't put in your buck-oh-five, who will?

 

[carol]

Really this is starting to pan out to be a huge discussion on something as simple as how things are worded. It would be just as easy for others to accept how it is worded now than for yet others to accept the wording should be changed. It's turning into the pot calling the kettle black.

It is really reminding me at the on going "drama" where I work. I am a Office Manager at a Sporting Clays Range. For those who don't know what that is, it's pretty much golf with flying clay targets instead of balls, and shotguns instead of clubs. When people start taking themselves seriously on Sporting Clays they like to "see" a pair of "view targets" so they have an idea where the clays will fly at each station. At most ranges you get a "free" pair of view targets at each station.

Recently we had quite a few cost increases and we had two choices. Raise Round prices all together or charge for the previously "free" view targets. Of course the backbone of our business.... Paid Members that get privileges and reduced rates decided they would just rather not take the view targets. Heck, they are there a couple of times a week and they have all the stations memorized.

Now when the people who only stop in and give us business once or twice a year and usually only shoot 50 clays spread out over 16 stations come in with a "thrown clay count" of 82 because they took views at each station... they are absolutely furious for getting charged for 82 Clays. "Its just not fair, because I don't shoot here enough to know where the targets will be going".

If I ask they rather we allow "free" views but raise Round prices all together, they strongly say "yes"! And if I ask if it would be OK to give a discount if they didn't take views, they say "yes".

So in summary, it is not OK for people who don't take views to pay less money than people who do. But it is OK to raise the price for everyone and give people who don't take views a discount. I swear to God I have made this statement to many men and they look at me and say "That is exactly right!". :headbang: It's at that point I think of doing very evil things with my Shotgun.

Should the cheese go on top of the burger, or underneath??? Heck it all goes to the same place, don't it?

 

[oldhand]

It come's down to 2 main things from what i can see.

1, Being able to edit your own post's, post in the classifieds section, and have the choice of a sub members form

2, Being happy with the free membership and not having the "added features" above.

First of all, I just don't understand why you think the ability to edit a post is your "right". I see it as a "privilege" (and a questionable one at that). This "privilege" was taken away from ALL members of this forum due to repeated abuse.

Very Good point it is a privalege

When I do the math I see:
A- the number of hours I have to work to pay $25 for one year of using this site, versus:
B- the number of hours Rich puts into setting up and maintaining this site every year.

I'm sure that B is many times greater than A. So IMO even if the site costs Rich nothing but his own time, he still deserves every penny of my contribution.

Also a very good point, rich puts a lot of hard work into this site behind the scenes, as does a lot of members, with the sub forums and whatever else (ansawing questions, doing the genitic's ect ect)

I did it because I was getting worn down by emails asking questions. Same questions just about every day from a multitude of people. So I got the idea that maybe setting up a message board would at least allow me to answer such questions ONLY once, and the rest of the people would read that answer, saving my getting yet another email asking that very same question. Then as people participated in the forum itself, I soon saw that many of the questions were being fielded by other people, which helped me out quite a bit. It got to the point that when people asked me questions, I simple asked them to check out CornSnakes.com to see if they could find their answers there.

So you see, I never really set up this site as an advertising funnel for myself at all. But heck, after it was established, I felt that putting my sponsorship logo on it wasn't going to be too bad of an idea. And the section I have for more direct questions and the photo gallery also seemed much more logical to have them here rather then setting up yet another section on my SerpenCo.com site, don't you think?

Best point of all. This forum was setup as a relief from the many emails and questions, of which many people can also answer the same questions, thus making it an on-line community with good advice.

As it is up to Rich, i think he is doing the right thing in giving members the "option" of contributing a set fee,and getting privileges for doing so. Like i said earlier i would pay it to help keep the site going if it came to that, but as it is i don't actually need the extra features now, so i opted out, but to keep the site going i would pay for it as it's the biggest and best corn snake forum on the web, but thats just my humble opinion.

And yeah with my history i can say this as i think I've earned the right now.

No offence meant to anyone, just pointing things out as i see them from all sides.

 

[JTGoff69]

Like Menhir said to begin with "If you don't like the rules, go elsewhere!"

No one who contributes to this site does so for the extra "perks" of editing or sales. Those perks weren't available when contributing was first an issue. I make sure my posts are proofread, and I don't sell any snakes right now. Others are paying an extra $25 for their own forums that they can do with as they please.

My reasons for contributing to this site are simple:
The knowledge I've gained from other's expertise.
Helping others that have less knowledge than myself.
Talking to others about a subject I'm passionate about, and gaining knowledge from them.
Rich's knowledge and patience with all of us , (newbies and breeders alike), AND the fact that this all comes to us for FREE.
Where else can you get this kind of info for free or free advertising??? Any magazine will charge you at least $25 a year for nothing more than what they deem worthy to print. Have a question?? Pray that it gets answered! Want to sell your animals?? More than $25 I'm sure. Advice from the top breeders in the world? PRICELESS............. I make $7 an hour, but can afford to be a contributor, so can you.

 

[carol]

I also want to state for the record, for those who have a hard time seeing the difference between an interesting debate and "being mad" at someone. I am truly sorry if I in anyway made those who do not make the $25 contribution feel like they don't contribute anything to this site. Sure there are many non paying contributors that contribute tons of time and knowledge to this site. Saying such a thing would be like saying that the $25 is the ONLY thing "paid" participants contribute. I just don't want to have to pay another $25 after my already $50 dished out just so I can say I paid for being able to advertise instead of getting a perk for contributing.

 

[Taceas]

Jen, that was rude and untactful? Sheesh..you're a tiger when you get mad.

After reading this for over an hour and reflecting on it I've got a few things to add among ths myriad of posts that really say what I feel. So to reiterate a few things..

I've always had the utmost respect for members, monetary contributors and not. But that respect has always had to be earned, I don't just give it out freely. There are a few of you out there I know COULD contritubute money whether it be for a contributor status or just simply donating to the site. I see your butts on here enough using all of Rich's services and personally I'd feel guilty doing so without giving back. And I did...thats why I contributed.

I donated to this site long before we even had the contributor thing and had spiffy medals. Its definitely NOT about the medals or the special powers we have of being able to edit or sell animals. Its about showing my utmost respect to Rich and his kindness for providing an alternative to Kingsucks.com back in the day when even I got restricted from performing my right of free speech. Freedom exists around here, and Serp said it best about paying for your freedom. I've paid for mine.

I don't pay because I'm required to, I pay because I want to. I pay to keep this site up and running, full of benefitial features, and a place for me to plunk my butt down at the end of the day and spend quality time with quality people who are passionate about corn snakes like I am.

I think you (Menhir) were just seeing it from a slanted perspective as a multitude of things changed at once. I doubt that was intentional in any way in Rich's mind or actions.

I can see why he implimented changes into editing functions, and I can see his rationale into only having contributing members being able to do it. Generally speaking we're the least likely to go out and cause a ruckous and then change our posts in the middle to prove that we were right. It just seems to go with the mentality of the people who want to give back I guess. When you've paid your dues, you don't want to stir up trouble on something you care enough about to support.

I can also very clearly see why he is only allowing paying members to be able to post for sale ads. Its eating into his business and I believe he's entitled to institute a fee to advertsise your for sales. Quite a few people on there never have and probably never will give much to the site via honest posts or sharing of information. They were free-loaders, simply put. And to me, if this were my site, I'd be rather irked as well. Making your livelihood from something everyone else was selling as well could have quite an impact, and to charge for that service is by no way wrong or prejudicial from my perspective. Since you're not selling any animals besides local sales perhaps, I don't see why that would even be an issue really.

Anyway, I am happy to support the site for many reasons none of which include the medal or ability to edit posts or have for sale ads. I'm sure that for some people its about looking cool, but I doubt that's the reason why the majority of us have contributed to this site. I'd be lost in the evenings without this site and the people. If you don't want to contribute, you don't HAVE too. No one is twisting your arm. Most of the people who have it in their signatures are merely encouraging people to help support the upkeep of the site, nothing more.

 

[dwyn127]

Since being very new at all of this I know I have very little to offer verbally; you can see that if you look to the left at how many times I've posted here. But if it showed how much time I've SPENT here the # would be a whole lot bigger, in fact, my wife says I'm obsessed with cornsnakes; what does she know!
I paid $25 dollars and I STILL feel like I'm on the take! Heck, I paid that for an Amel. (Hurley, stop laughing!) I've met people on this website who have taken the time to answer questions for me through e-mail and PM's. One member, DAND, (don't mean to embarass you) even went out of his way to meet me personally to probe a snake, then we stood in a parking lot for over an hour BS'n. I know he didn't do it because he has a coin next to his name.

So outside of Dave, I don't know any of you, but after reading your posts all this time I kinda feel like I do. Contributing $25 for the priceless information I've received makes me feel like I belong a little bit more.

Hvae to admtit it thuogh, the eidt feautre is qiute heplful.

And by the way, my ego's not that healthy not to admit it...
...I do like the coin! :devil01:

 

[Menhir]

Are you saying that since these "privileges" have become paid services that I should have to pay again?

If that is what I wrote, then I should stop writing english. I never said and never meant that.

I stand corrected, you are obviously a legend.

Oh, you got the german guy another time through playing with your native language - I'm really proud of you!

First of all, I just don't understand why you think the ability to edit a post is your "right". I see it as a "privilege" (and a questionable one at that). [...] At a later date, the propietor of this site decided to "give paying members extra" capabilities. According to your own words, you feel this is perfectly acceptable. Sooooo.......what are you complaining about? :shrugs:

OK, "rights" both means rights and privilege in German - sorry for that. Especially in boards and so on you use "rights" for everything you are allowed to do or allowed to use.

I'm about this point since all of my posts and it seems I'm not able to bring that into good words. Perhaps shorter:
I have no problem with people paying for service or donating for whatever they want. I have a problem when paying for a service gets the touch of "you have to give something back" and so gives other people the feeling that they do not! And back to the "champ of the masses" point. When I talk about feelings it's hard to give you a fact or a quote, that may be also understandable for you. That's why I talk about such things with other friends using the board. If they feel the same, I may think that I'm not the only one feeling so and it may be right talking about that.
So, and back to the starting point, the remark to newbies that they CAN CONTRIBUTE to GIVE SOMETHING BACK has a different sound to me then paying for a service or being here at the board for a year and deciding to donate.

Let's take this for example:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=158582&postcount=28
That are exactly the postings I mean - doesn't say, "just contributing members can edit" and I would still go with "as a Contributor you can buy special privileges such as...." no - it's always under the point "giving something back" and that means money in that case and thats the point according to my previous postings that I don't go with.
When someone gets to hear that, that joined in June05 with 42 Postings - how much do I have to give back then? :shrugs:
I don't want to talk again that this feeling was there before "privileges" where cut and therefore it now got me to write these things cause I did several times already...

 

[A_Mc]

I feel as if I have to put my .02 in, so please bear with me....

I am fairly new to this forum, but not new to snakes. I honestly didn't know this place existed before I linked over from the Serpenco site. Most of my animals had come from local shows or stores, with a few coming from Reptibid. I was searching one night to add to my collection and found Fauna...That seemed like 'just too much' information (I didn't care about pythons, boas, or 'legged herps').

When I got here, I was AMAZED at the wealth of information, pictures, advice and truly friendly people....I spent hours reading old posts and looking up various things. Until then, I had been pretty isolated in my hobby (my friends think I'm weird..LOL). But here is a place with like minded people that (for the most part..) know what they're talking about. I have learned so much by just searching posts!! In addition, I have purchased some great snakes, and met some really wonderful people.

My decision to contribute was not because I wanted to post ads or edit. I will admit that I kind of like the coin--I think it's pretty and looks nice.
I contributed the meager $25 because I felt a little guilty. I was using this place as a neverending source of information and enjoyment. I have given advice, answered questions and posted pics, but I didn't feel like I was giving as much as I was getting. :shrugs: That is MY HUMBLE OPINION.

I will gladly pay the $25 every year...and more if needed...to help out with the expenses of this site. If this site is 'not that expensive' to run, then consider it the cost of a magazine subscription...I certainly get more enjoyment and info out of this than I do reading whether or not Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are boinking. (I hope that's an acceptable term) :sidestep:

I honestly don't feel like this is an advertising platform for Serpenco....but, if it is, WHO CARES??? This is Rich's site...he can sell his boogers on here if he wants to. :eek1:

If it's about feeling left out, or having something taken away, how would people feel if Rich said..."Forget it, no more Cornsnakes.com" and scrapped the whole thing?

I will personally donate my ability to edit posts to anyone that really wants it?? You can even have my ability to post ads....Please leave me with my coin.......I kinda like it.

Better yet....How about I just give someone $25 so they can get their membership and end the bickering???

oh yeah... :-offtopic I ended up contributing on Fauna, too.........

 

[Menhir]

Sorry, I read through the last postings again and the more I read it the more I think that my intention was misunderstood - I at least hope that it's because I can't explain good enough what I mean. Such things are even hard to discuss via Internet in my native language and it's even harder for me in English.

First of all, I shouldn't have linked Joe's posting. It is not THAT posting that gave me the feeling I described nor do I think that it was the intention of Joe to say so. It's just a sum up of what I've read the last few months and this is one little stone. I'm quite sure that many people stating this did not think or feel the way I did and that's why I didn't want to quote anyone in the start. Is this understandable? I hope so.

I started the thread with the position, that "contributing" to the site means, that I'm a donator that keeps the site alive. On that base, I argued why I do not think that this is all to keep it alive and that we HAVE to give something back. I don't speak of WANTING to give something back, I mean HAVE to.
Is that clear so far? :crazy02:
OK, after I read Rich's postings and others about the whole sale thing I come to the conclusion that it's OK to let people pay for that. Perhaps I didn't describe that clearly enough. So, that made me change my mind from contributing is "keeping the site alive" to contributing is "buying and using a service" that goes over the service a "normal" user can use. And now the point where I think you got me wrong is, that I don't see a problem in earning money or letting people pay for a service. At the start I was arguing against saying people keep the site alive and earning money with that - which seems to be NOT the case here - at least not after Rich posted his clear and honest opinion to that.

Now, when I accept the contributing as buying an extra service, I don't see a reason that I contribute if I don't want or need the service. On the other hand, if I want to contribute to the site cause I have the feeling to give something back, I can still use the donation button for that. And the whole point that I criticize AFTER your explanations is, that people should more distingush between a donation to keep a thing alive and a contribution for extra service and also for making the site (perhaps) slightly profitable for the owner. And for MY feeling, that got lost a little bit. I know this from the whole Linux and freeware world where authors clearly declare some things as a free donation to get a little money (making it slightly profitable) or that they NEED money to keep a thing alive.

I really like this site a lot and it's definitely my favorite board for corns. If someone decided to make this site for paying members only, I could decide for myself wether I want to pay or not - to be honest, I would even pay - I'm not that all for free anarchie guy! The thing is, the more coins I see and the more often I read "we have to give something back" the more I feel that I'm exploiting someone because I use this board for such a long time (never attached pictures, never sold snakes) and contributed anything than my knowledge. If the Contributing thing would have been declared as a service, and under that point of view I think that many of your arguments are very true in the aspects of selling snakes and so on, I wouldn't have any problems with that and I'm quite sure so would do others.

I try to give as much to others as I can do for free and cause I'm a student, I have to think of every Eur I "waste" - and waste is everything next to my studying and eating. So I always try to give other things, my knowledge, my time and so on. And from sitting there it simply didn't feel good, that I'm in the exploiting position. Isn't that understandable in some way?

I'll try to get this to an end now. It was nice to talk about it, nice to hear the arguments of Rich and the (BAD!) coin people :crazy02: I hope no one felled offended that decided to contribute, I should say that I find it great that you are willing to donate money. When I read your statements, I'm sure you pretty much donated the money and didn't think of having a coin or using that special service. I hope I didn't gave you another feeling.

I for myself will accept the coin thing as a service and so try not to feel pushed to contribute to the site cause I'm exploiting it - that's at least what I can take with me from this discussion.

Thanks for your replies and greetings
Michael

 

[mbdorfer]

Better yet....How about I just give someone $25 so they can get their membership and end the bickering???

I'll go halves with ya :grin01:

 

[DAND]

Okay, since I've been so nice and "tactful" to everyone, I will post this rude and "untactful" post.

Jen,

I didn't think you had it in ya. I have a new found admiration for you.

One member, DAND, (don't mean to embarass you) even went out of his way to meet me personally to probe a snake, then we stood in a parking lot for over an hour BS'n. I know he didn't do it because he has a coin next to his name.

Aw shucks

 

[A_Mc]

DAND--I love the sig....(For a mere .06849315 cents a day you can have a shiny thingy too.)
:cheers:

 

[DAND]

DAND--I love the sig....(For a mere .06849315 cents a day you can have a shiny thingy too.)
:cheers:

Glad you like it.

 

[carol]

I have a problem when paying for a service gets the touch of "you have to give something back" and so gives other people the feeling that they do not!

I think the majority of people a mature enough to realize that the signitures that say "Become a Contributing Member" or "Give something back" mean monetary donations, and does not mean it is the ONLY contribution they can give to this site. I still have yet to find one that says you "HAVE" to? Can you refer me to anyones that says so? I think you don't understand peoples intentions. There are many people here who, like myself, post loads of pics, and are "server hogs", I think it is a good idea that they are reminded in other peoples sigs that they can help out for that. There may be a select few that are going to pretend they are great for it, but don't be mad at the system because of a few immature people. I really can only think of one thread we were talking about it, and we were joking around... maybe that fact didn't translate? (again that can be taken as a sincere statement or a jab, trust me, I'm sincere)

So, that made me change my mind from contributing is "keeping the site alive" to contributing is "buying and using a service" that goes over the service a "normal" user can use...
...that people should more distingush between a donation to keep a thing alive and a contribution for extra service and also for making the site (perhaps) slightly profitable for the owner.

You still need to understand this is nowhere near making the site profitable for the owner.

Boy I hope the Girl Scouts never come to your house. Answer me this... WHY can't it be both? Why can't it be a "contribution for keeping the site alive" AND "buying and using a service"? Trust me, there is no prejudice here, my mother immigrated from Germany when she was 8. But do they not have fundraisers in Germany? Raffles? Benefits?

Here in the US, it is very common to have Fundraisers that combine Contributing with getting something in return. For my son's school, twice a year they sell cookie dough and chocolates as a fundraiser, you contribute... you get cookies. Sure there are people who spend countless hours volunteering at the school, there are people who make large monthly donations to the school and you know what they do when you walk by and say "I got some Fundraiser cookies!!" ? By all means, they do not go off on a tangent saying "Are you implying that since I didn't buy cookies, that you contribute and I don't? Do you think you're box of cookies compares to my hours of volunteer work!?!". Actually what they say is "That's great! Whatever you can do to help, where do I go to get some myself?"

 

[Serpwidgets]

Keep in mind that people are usually speaking from their own perspective, toward other people who have the same perspective. A lot of newbies don't feel like they have a lot to contribute in the way of advice and all. (That's just a part of being "new" to something.) They feel like they are getting a lot of entertainment value out of this site, want to give something back, and the only way they are able to contribute (while still being newbies) is monetarily. :santa:

Also, it's not just the coins, the for sale posts, and editing posts... there's also a whole forum (The Insiders Club) that is accessible. (That's where all us "coin people" go to talk about how cool we all are and how uncool everyone else is. :dgrin: :duck: :sidestep: )

 

[Gronk]

Carol....

I, for one, really appreciate your well thought out and articulated posts on this subject, and others. I wish I could string thoughts together so well at times.

As for the "server hog" comment...Keep those pics coming, Ma'am !! Your animals are too darn pretty to keep under wraps !

 

[Menhir]

the majority of people a mature enough to realize [...]

Seems that I'm not, don't you think?

I always thought so, but less PRIVILEGES made me think different. Are such youth thoughts that hard to understand at a given age?

(That's where all us "coin people" go to talk about how cool we all are and how uncool everyone else is. :dgrin: :duck: :sidestep: )

You mean thats the cheap way of coolness compared to:

Some people would like to have the distinction of having Lavender Blood Reds.

...when I look at the viv next to me, seems that my graphic design is worth the 2500$. :flames: (sorry, I also have to do a little show cause I'm not in the CCC (nice alliteration the CoolCoinClub ~g~) :eek1: )

 

[carol]

...when I look at the viv next to me, seems that my graphic design is worth the 2500$. :flames:

Ya, that's a priveledge I'd definately love to have!

BTW, I certainly hope sigs are as powerful as you say they are, by this point many people will have thought they HAVE to visit my corner!

Cool!

(All said in fun of course)