Crypto...

[Nanci]

Well, the Understanding Reptile Parasites _does_ mention that treatment for crypto has become more promising in the last couple years...FWIW.

 

[Floof]

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

Danielle, that's why I was going to do another fecal before trying it... But, if there's a chance that crypto can hide for that long, I'll wait. My entire reason for breeding to begin with has been the hope to use the genetics portion for my culminating project (and the snakes themselves as "real" examples), but I'd rather do "hypothetical scenario" type things if there's still too much of a risk for the animals.

I've also been thinking about this "cure". I'm not sure I want these animals in my collection, no matter how "cured" they may be, but, at the same time, I don't want to give up and euthanize these guys if there's a real chance for them. I've been thinking about asking the vet if there are any research facilites currently studying potential cures for crypto in reptiles (especially any currently studying Ponazuril, since they're already on it). It seems like a really difficult thing to discuss via the phone, though, and that's if I can even get the vet himself on the phone. Does anyone know where online I might find that kind of information? :shrugs:

 

[danielle]

I feel so sorry for you in this situation because its obvious you are trying to do the right thing. I have heard of the treatment, but never as a cure. From what I understand it can reduce the load of crypto to such low levels it can't be detected, but is never gone kinda like meds for HIV now. The snake can still infect others and reinfect himself through fecal contact meaning for as long as he's around he's a threat to your healthy collection and even himself. I would ask your vet for the study he's basing his info off of and ask about what I just said to be sure your getting the full picture. I'm surely no vet but if it can't be cured and your collection now is negative the greater of the two evils is to have him put down to keep the rest of your collection healthy. If I had one snake I may try it, but since your serious about breeding in the future loosing your whole collection would be beyond heartbreaking. I hope you can get better answers from people more experienced maybe PM Kathy Love or Susan. Good luck

 

[dionythicus]

I don''t know what vet you've been going to, but please contact Dr. Adolph Maas....

http://www.avianexoticanimalhospital.com/Contact.html

He is THE reptile vet in the Seattle area, he works with the local zoo, as well. He is the one who did the biopsy on my boa to rule out IBD and I trust him explicitly. Call his office ASAP to get the best info.

 

[Floof]

I feel sorry for myself! Every time I even think about this whole mess, I start getting stressed and panicked. Not a fun feeling, especially when I feel like there are better things to stress over (like senior year in high school and all that jazz that comes with it).

I'm trying to hold of on really making a decision until I've gotten the infected snakes separated and the healthy ones moved out of the house, but, at the same time, I'm afraid of more snakes getting infected if I do that. Ugh. This whole thing sucks. I honestly don't think I can do anything "right" in this situation...

As for the study the vet is basing his info off, I don't think he has one. By the sounds of it, he's been doing "testing" himself. He didn't say anything about definitive research when he was telling us about the curative properties he's experienced, but I'll ask him if there are any actual research papers to read on the subject of Ponazuril.

I don''t know what vet you've been going to, but please contact Dr. Adolph Maas....

http://www.avianexoticanimalhospital.com/Contact.html

He is THE reptile vet in the Seattle area, he works with the local zoo, as well. He is the one who did the biopsy on my boa to rule out IBD and I trust him explicitly. Call his office ASAP to get the best info.

Actually, Dr Maas IS the vet I've been going to. Glad to see he's recommended here on CS.com, too.

 

[dionythicus]

Great. He will give you all the right info.

 

[Susan]

I've just looked at that particular product and am curious as to what your vet is dosing it at. It is available only as an equine product (15%) and needs to be compounded for off-label use in dogs and cats (5%), so the dose for reptiles might even be less. I also just looked at the cost...one syringe of 127 grams costs the vet $167.96, a box of 4 syringes is $671.84 (not sure if it can be purchased as a single syringe or not as my program isn't telling me and some products will only be sold by the box), so if you use the usual mark-up (100% or more), it's a bit pricey, especially if a vet is special ordering it for you which means you buy the entire amount, not just what you need. But for someone who might be treating an entire collection, it might be worth it. Has your vet mentioned any potential side-effects or other concerns with the use of Marquis (registered trade name - Bayer product)?

 

[Hypancistrus]

I'd be more than skeptical about a crypto "cure". If there were one you would think this would be all over the reptile world, but its not. I still wouldn't breed right now many fecals can be negative with crypto still being present lying dormant for a year or more in rare cases. Breeding offspring means the chance of infecting them and selling them into someones healthy collection which is not going to go over well with most people. If your serious about breeding your reputation is important, you'll have to disclose this info, and waiting will be better for you and your snakes in the long run to make sure you re selling disease free animals

I agree strongly with Danielle. I believe the rule is three negatives are required to prove conclusively that the animal is not infected. I also think the best way is to do the inspection of stomach contents, which is invasive and stressful for the animal. If there WERE a way to cure crypto, I am pretty sure it'd be all over the boards... Lord knows most of us are quite fearful of getting it into our collections.

The other thing that worries me is that you are moving healthy snakes out of the house. Where are you moving them to? Is the place you are moving them to shared by other reptiles? Given the extremely contagious nature of crypt... I would probably avoid moving ANY animals into a location shared by other reptiles.

You have responsibilities here not just to yourself and your animals, but to the community as a whole.

 

[Floof]

I've just looked at that particular product and am curious as to what your vet is dosing it at. It is available only as an equine product (15%) and needs to be compounded for off-label use in dogs and cats (5%), so the dose for reptiles might even be less. I also just looked at the cost...one syringe of 127 grams costs the vet $167.96, a box of 4 syringes is $671.84 (not sure if it can be purchased as a single syringe or not as my program isn't telling me and some products will only be sold by the box), so if you use the usual mark-up (100% or more), it's a bit pricey, especially if a vet is special ordering it for you which means you buy the entire amount, not just what you need. But for someone who might be treating an entire collection, it might be worth it. Has your vet mentioned any potential side-effects or other concerns with the use of Marquis (registered trade name - Bayer product)?

The dosage for the two animals in question is .03 ml (Sris--just under 200 g) and .02 ml (Jack--just over 100 g). My math is terrible, so that's the best I can give you. The vet told us it's safe... Apparently, he tested a 10x dose on one of his animals (or something like that--lord knows my memory is terrible) and there weren't any real ill effects. As for pricing, he sells it by the gram. 150 mg was just under $12.

I agree strongly with Danielle. I believe the rule is three negatives are required to prove conclusively that the animal is not infected. I also think the best way is to do the inspection of stomach contents, which is invasive and stressful for the animal. If there WERE a way to cure crypto, I am pretty sure it'd be all over the boards... Lord knows most of us are quite fearful of getting it into our collections.

The other thing that worries me is that you are moving healthy snakes out of the house. Where are you moving them to? Is the place you are moving them to shared by other reptiles? Given the extremely contagious nature of crypt... I would probably avoid moving ANY animals into a location shared by other reptiles.

You have responsibilities here not just to yourself and your animals, but to the community as a whole.

Thanks for the info about testing.

I'm moving the healthy ones to my grandmother's house. She doesn't have any herps of her own.

 

[Susan]

OK...he's dosing 0.01 ml per 100 gram snake body weight. But how many mg are in that 0.01 ml? You purchased 150 mg, but how many ml was that? And how often are you giving it and for how long?

 

[Floof]

Gee, for a minute there I completely forgot that "gram" and "liter" were two separate measurements. It must be 1 ml to each mg, because the receipt says 150 mg/ml. This is once daily for 45 days (though, apparently, it expires after 30 days, so we have to get it twice).

I'm not sure I, personally, will be doing the medication all the way through to the end, though, as I'm still nervous about having them ("cured" or otherwise) near my collection (in other words, I'm still looking in to euthanasia, research facilities, that sort of thing).