Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[Okeetee_Corn_Snakes]

Jaxom, I am really sorry to hear what happened. I hope things turn out.

When I worked in a petstore I was always told to either leave the fish in the empty sink to suffocate or put them in a net and smack them against the wall. First of all even though they may only be fish I don't wish to see any creature suffer. For sure they were suffering in the sink and if you didn't hit the net hard enough the fish would still be alive. I preferred, as gruesome as it sounds, to simply sever their spinal cord. It ensured a fast kill and less suffering at any rate, even if it was not on my top ten favorite things to do.

However, because I am able to understand this I think I will be OK when it comes to hatching my first clutch. I don't ever intend to sell unhealthy. deformed or underweight snakes, though this does not mean I will give up on a hatchling the first time it refuses a meal.

I am still indecisive when it comes to hybrids. I have seen some truly stunning hybrids out there and before I owned my own snake I even dreamed of breeding to get some different results. My thoughts now have changed and I am unsure of what I want to be doing with cross breeding. I do not even know if its right to do. I had an offer to breed my male ratsnake with a corn and oddly, I felt kind of disturbed at the idea. Besides they make ugly mean little snakes :grin01:

I still have a lot of thinking to do so for now I will stick with my ghost project. =)

 

[Shade]

How do you figure? How, exactly, is it more humane to suffocate an air breathing animal than to allow it to simply fall asleep and never wake up? Unconsciousness through CO2 saturation takes as long if not longer than unconsciousness through freezing of an ectothermic animal. And I don't care what anyone says...choking to death MUST hurt...suffocation cannot possibly be painless, no matter what anyone would like to think. You're brain is active and aware of what is happening until unconsciousness is achieved. Even after unconsciousness IS achieved, brain activity continues for 1 to several minutes.

We aren't talking about mammls or other endotherms, here. We're talking about snakes...ectotherms...unable to produce their own body heat. They fall asleep and never wake up...simple as that. As far as the snake is concerned, it is going into winter brumation, just like any other winter. The only difference is this time it doesn't wake up.

So how is that worse than being conscious and unable to breathe, and feeling your lungs burn from the freezing vapor of CO2 entering them??? I would really like to hear your explanation...

For these very reasons, I do not use a CO2 chamber for my mouse culling. I use cervical dislocation, which immediately ceases all brain function and pain senses, due to a quick severance of the spinal cord...

Just one more thing...have you ever actually USED a CO2 chamber? Regardless...are you aware of how long snakes are able to hold their breath for? Watch your snake when it is relaxed one night...count how many times per minute you see your snake breathe. Then tell me how long you think it would take for that snake to inhale enough CO2 to suffocate and lose consciousness, and eventually die...

An article was posted here a while ago that basically said ectotherms are merely paralyzed during the freezing process. They're awake and can feel the ice crystals forming and all that fantastic stuff before they die. Search for the post and you might find it.

 

[SnakeAround]

An article was posted here a while ago that basically said ectotherms are merely paralyzed during the freezing process. They're awake and can feel the ice crystals forming and all that fantastic stuff before they die. Search for the post and you might find it.

I have read that too.

I have also heared that killing mice by just putting them in a large plastic bag and close it, is humane since they get slowly intoxicated by carbomonoxide (right word for CO?) and just fall asleep. I also know from First Aid course that getting intoxicated by too much CO is not painfull and you do not panic, that is why it is not easy to recognize.

 

[tyflier]

HUGE difference between between carbon monoxide poisoning and carbon dioxide vapor suffocation.

Here's the breakdown...CO2, or carbon dioxide, is a liquid under pressure, and boils(or vaporizes) at roughly 26*F...lower than freezing. This means that the vapor you are exposing these animals to is at a temperature of roughly 26*F. If a snake can feel ice crystals forming during freezing, you will certainly not convince me that suffocating them via a freezing vapor is less painful.

In other words...regardless of what the article you are referring to says, freezing your lungs with a freezing cold vapor is definitely going to cause pain....LOTS of pain. The bottom line is...how do we know for certain which is "less painful"? We don't...plain and simple. All of this is based on conjecture.


So what are the options for euthanizing a snake? Freezer, CO2 chamber, some other form of suffocation, cervical dislocation, beheading, strangulation...all viable options, and NONE of them are proven to immediately cease and desist all brain function.

So, given the chance, I will do what I feel is the right thing. How do I justify what I feel is the right thing? I look at it this way...

When the temperatures reach a low degree, these snakes seek shelter and brumate through the winter. Mountain kingsnakes, some species of boa(rosy and rubber off the top of my head), and other colubrid species are known to live and survive in high elevation areas, where freezing temperatures and snowfall occupy six months of the year. If a snake can fall asleep, and remain sleeping through a sub-zero winter, and wake up no worse off(except a little hungry) come spring, than how can putting it in the freezer be so painful?

What I mean is this...there are snakes to be found in this area at around 10,000'. At this elevation, the temperature rarely exceeds 85*F, even in the heat of August. During the winter, nighttime temps at this elevation are less than 0*F(which is colder than the average freezer)...yet snakes survive to thrive in the following spring. If ice crystals were going to form before the death of the snake, it would be a reasonable assumption that they would form during this time.

IMO...the formation of ice crystals must happen at a point in time after death. I am not a biologist, but I know that snakes survive below freezing winters with 25'+ of snow and 100 MPH winds. Sure...they seek shelter in the dens of mammals and rodents. But an ectotherm is an ectotherm. I do not think that the burrow of a ground squirrel can maintain a temperature above freezing if both the ground water and ground soil are frozen and the animal is not producing body heat. The snake will be at the same temp. as it's environment, and if the ground is frozen...you do the math...

I just don't buy it...regardless of what someone else's opinion(yes...an article is usually an opinion) is...

 

[suecornish]

If you go into the cave systems, Crystal Caves or Carlsbad, the caves stay at a temp of 52-54 degrees no matter what the temps are outside. Maybe it is the same when the snakes brumate at high alt.; the outside temps may be 0 or below but their burrow stays in the high 40s or low 50s. The other thing is the freeze we use produces a lot of moisture and that causes ice crystals. I don't think the level of moisture is the same naturally as it is in our freezers.

All I know is that the AVMA states freezing is inhumane; flash freezing a deeply anesthised (sic) snake is okay but not putting them in a freezer.

 

[tyflier]

There is a BIG difference between Carlsbad Caverns and a ground squirrel burrow...

Somehow, I doubt that a marmot burrow at 10,500', buried under 22 feet of snow, and surrounded by frozen ground is quite the toasty environment you are assuming it to be. Maintaining a temperature of between 40-50*F...or even 33*F...would mean that the ground didn't freeze. And since the ground freezes, the temperature must be lower. That's quite basic, really. The ground freezes because the water molecules in the soil are freezing. Water freezes at 32*F. So if the ground of the burrow is frozen in the winter, the temperature of the burrow cannot be higher than 32*F.

What statistical data or evidence is provided by the AVMA to "show" that snakes feel the ice crystals forming and are aware of it? I want to know what snake said, "OW!! This Hurts! I can feel ice crystals forming!!" It would have HAD to have been hooked up to some sort of monitoring system, and then frozen to even BEGIN making a reasonable collection of data. Even so, it would be an interpretation of chemical reactions, that may or may not be reacting to what we believe them to be reacting to. A quickened heart and respiratory rate could just as easily be a reaction to the heart rate monitor as it is a reaction to the formation of ice crystals, and there is no irrefutable way to prove otherwise. Assumption and conjecture, based on pre-concieved ideas of what "we" are expecting to see...

Don't forget that CO2 euthanasia is the only accepted "humane" euthanasia that can be performed at home, according to the AVMA. Unfortunately, a bullet in the cerebral cortex is quicker and less painful. Decapitation is quick and painless(the definition of humane). Cervical dislocation is guaranteed painless(severed spinal cords cannot transmit pain indicators) even though the now-dead body still reacts violently. But suffocation by breathing a freezing vapor is "accepted" as "humane"...

Doesn't that strike you as even slightly odd?

You're forgetting that the bottom line is this...all of the articles and research and developement of "humane euthanasia" is based on conjecture and assumption...what we "think" is not painful. Just because a body doesn't react in a violent manner is no guarantee of a painless death. Starving to death is quite the opposite of violent. The victim appears to simply lie down and go to sleep. However, it is an extremely painful torture to endure. Likewise, a violent reaction does not always indicate pain. If you snap the neck and spinal cord of a mouse, the body will continue to twitch for several seconds if not a full minute afterwards...but brain activity and pain sensations are ceased immediately.

If you shoot someone in the face with a 12gauge shotgun from point blank range, I can guarantee you that that individual did not feel even a split-second worth of pain...guaranteed. Yet if you inject them with a sequence of chemicals designed to induce a comatose state followed by a slowing of the metabolism to a point that the body stops working(an accepted form of humane capital punishment), it is considered "humane", by the exact same group of doctors that SWEAR a comatose person can hear, smell, comprehend and recognize people and conversations throughout the length of the coma.

So in reality, the answer of "humane culling" is not a question of what TRULY is painless...it's a question of what we percieve to be painless. If we see a creature lie down and "fall asleep", we percieve that to be painless. If we see a creature react in a violent manner, twitching, convulsing, bleeding from the nose and mouth...we assume that to be a sign of pain. In reality, quite the opposite is very likely true, as in the above examples.

What it comes down to is how we, as the taker of a life, feel about the manner in which that life is taken. I do not expect to alter or change your ideas, thoughts, and convictions regarding euthanising animals in a humane manner. That is a choice only you can make. Please allow me the same courtesy. I do not care what anybody else's opinion is on the matter, doctor, vet, herpetologist, or Joe Schmoe. All opinions are equal, as far as I am concerned, and all are reasonably valid. I choose to do things my way, with a clean and clear conscious, as I hope you are able to do in your own future. Someone else may choose a different manner, and I will not be the judge of their decision, for they and they alone are the ones that need to live with that decision.

One last thing...I don't make any money or recieve any endorsements for my statements about my idea of "humane euthanasia"...the AVMA does. :shrugs:

 

[suecornish]

I agree. We each must do what we are comfortable in doing.

Humane "killings" only come about when humans do it. Why is it humane to put an animal down, out of it's suffering, when if a human was in the same situtation the medical profession does everything it can to keep that person alive regardless of the pain that person is suffering.

I can understand why I would not feed a live mouse to my snakes. First and foremost my snakes may get injuried and, second, I could not stand the squealing of the mouse; but, mind you, I watched a snake eat a frog in the wild and the frog was squealing like a mouse and it did not bother me. Why? Because I was not the one feeding the snake.

Animals when they hunt in the wild, say lions. They take down their prey and start eating them while the prey is still alive. Is that humane - we don't bother ourselves because it is in the wild.

Everything we do is based on our feelings, thoughts, upbringing and faith AS WE understand it. I would probably feed my culled hatchlings to Queenie without first killing them because if Queenie was hunting in the wild she would eat them alive. I probably would not cull because a hatchling is not the right morph or looks odd pattern wise.

I am the first one to admit my views are strange. I want my burial at sea. No embalming. Shroud me, put me in a sailboat, tow me past the international line, open all the seacocks and let the boat sink to the bottom. I'll become fish food. After all, I have eaten my share of fish food, it is only right and fair that I should return what was given.

 

[Ssthisto]

Don't forget that CO2 euthanasia is the only accepted "humane" euthanasia that can be performed at home, according to the AVMA. But suffocation by breathing a freezing vapor is "accepted" as "humane"...

Why exactly do you keep referring to CO2 vapour as being "freezing" ?

I use CO2 from a welding supply canister. The gas that comes out of that canister is not freezing cold - it is cool to the touch, but not freezing, unless I leave the canister running for quite a long time. And if you've got your chamber set up correctly, with the canister venting into a holding container and tubed to your animal's container, the gas will warm up even more before it reaches the animal.

I do not personally advocate the use of dry ice for CO2 - which is where the freezing vapour COULD come from - unless of course you were doing it in a separate chamber to the animals as described above. But even then you cannot accurately measure the rate and flow of CO2 to the chamber like you can with a regulated canister.

 

[tyflier]

Why do I refer to CO2 as "freezing"? I'll tell you why...

First and foremost-Dry Ice, or the solid state of CO2, sublimates(or vaporizes) at negative 109*F. That is one hundred nine degrees farenheit below zero. In other words...just slightly cold.

Secondly-Under normal atmospheric pressures, there is no liquid state for CO2. However, under High Pressure situations(higher than 4-5 atmospheres), it can be maintained in a liquid state. This is why CO2 cylinders are high pressure cylinders...to maintain a liquid state. In order for this liquid to be useable as a gas, it must vaporize. The boiling point of liquid CO2(vaporization temperature) is negative 78*celcius. I don't know what that is in farenheit, but it is pretty freaking cold, and is definitely below freezing. If you turn on a CO2 tank, it will freeze any liquid on the outside of the tank. Have you ever played paintball? The tank gets frosty and ice chips will come out of the bolt chamber if you are using CO2 with an auto-firing marker. The liquid MUST cool to a temperature that is below freezing in order for this to happen. A CO2 tank will freeze regardless of the ambient temperature. I have frozen them in 90* heat.

Finally-in order for CO2 to be lethal to mammals, it must be dosed at 50,000ppm. In order to achieve 50,000ppm, an area must be saturated with CO2. There are only 2 ways to do this in the home with any sort of control or surety...vaporization of pressurized liquid or sublimation of dry ice. Any other method may not successfully saturate the chamber with 50,000ppm.

Yes...you can use a mixture of white vinegar and baking soda to create carbon dioxide gas...but this is NOT a guaranteed(nor recommended) method for accumulating the necessary 50,000ppm for a lethal saturation.

So, based on the physical properties of CO2 vs. the necessary requirements for fatal saturation, the two recommended home methods will create a freezing vapor. Both of the "humane" methods of CO2 euthanasia create a vapor that is WELL below 32*F...

As a point of referance, propane liquid under pressure will vaporize at -46*F. If you were to breathe this vapor, it would instantly freeze any skin or tissue it comes in contact with. You would suffocate and die...and it would be extremely painful. I have gotten frostibite in August from vaporizing propane, and CO2 is much colder...

 

[suecornish]

Why do I refer to CO2 as "freezing"? I'll tell you why...

First and foremost-Dry Ice, or the solid state of CO2, sublimates(or vaporizes) at negative 109*F. That is one hundred nine degrees farenheit below zero. In other words...just slightly cold.

Secondly-Under normal atmospheric pressures, there is no liquid state for CO2. However, under High Pressure situations(higher than 4-5 atmospheres), it can be maintained in a liquid state. This is why CO2 cylinders are high pressure cylinders...to maintain a liquid state. In order for this liquid to be useable as a gas, it must vaporize. The boiling point of liquid CO2(vaporization temperature) is negative 78*celcius. I don't know what that is in farenheit, but it is pretty freaking cold, and is definitely below freezing. If you turn on a CO2 tank, it will freeze any liquid on the outside of the tank. Have you ever played paintball? The tank gets frosty and ice chips will come out of the bolt chamber if you are using CO2 with an auto-firing marker. The liquid MUST cool to a temperature that is below freezing in order for this to happen. A CO2 tank will freeze regardless of the ambient temperature. I have frozen them in 90* heat.

Finally-in order for CO2 to be lethal to mammals, it must be dosed at 50,000ppm. In order to achieve 50,000ppm, an area must be saturated with CO2. There are only 2 ways to do this in the home with any sort of control or surety...vaporization of pressurized liquid or sublimation of dry ice. Any other method may not successfully saturate the chamber with 50,000ppm.

Yes...you can use a mixture of white vinegar and baking soda to create carbon dioxide gas...but this is NOT a guaranteed(nor recommended) method for accumulating the necessary 50,000ppm for a lethal saturation.

So, based on the physical properties of CO2 vs. the necessary requirements for fatal saturation, the two recommended home methods will create a freezing vapor. Both of the "humane" methods of CO2 euthanasia create a vapor that is WELL below 32*F...

As a point of referance, propane liquid under pressure will vaporize at -46*F. If you were to breathe this vapor, it would instantly freeze any skin or tissue it comes in contact with. You would suffocate and die...and it would be extremely painful. I have gotten frostibite in August from vaporizing propane, and CO2 is much colder...

PLEASE, please, tell me you are a science or biology teacher?

 

[tyflier]

PLEASE, please, tell me you are a science or biology teacher?

Nope...just a CA and NV state certified Propane Service Technician with experience in gas plumbing for propane, natural gas, and CO2(residential, commercial, and OPS{Operation Pipeline Safety...Federally regulated underground pipelines}. I'm also a certified Propane Appliance Repair Technician, qualified CA State CDL Hazardous Materials Transporter, and a part-time paintballer.

One thing I have experience with is liquified gases, low temperature boiling points, and getting "burned" by below-zero liquids...

You should see the looks on people's faces when I inform them that I plan to "freeze" their propane tanks and it is 100*F outside...and I am successful at it....

 

[suecornish]

One thing I have to say about you - you are knowledgeable. I always learn something reading your posts. Sometimes I don't understand them but after a couple of readings they sink in. The older I get it seems the dumber I get.

I'd give you rep but there is something about my login that is messed up and it tells me I am not logged in whenever I try to rep someone. So, consider yourself repped by me. :crazy02:

 

[jaxom1957]

How is it that a thread that hasn't has a new post since June 19 gets listed as "updated" every day?

 

[tyflier]

How is it that a thread that hasn't has a new post since June 19 gets listed as "updated" every day?

People see it and vote, but don't post...

 

[jaxom1957]

People see it and vote, but don't post...

Aha! I guess I can quit browsing the pages, trying to find who edited their post to bump it :laugh:

 

[mommyof2]

I voted it's only ok if the snake's deformed or weak. I read the first and last few pages of this thread and scanned through the rest. Maybe(probably) I get too emotionally involved in this sort of thing(and have no idea the thinking needed to be a big time breeder), but the way I see it, all animals deserve a chance....even the ugly ones.

I think about it like this. I always wanted a little brown haired baby girl that could wear dresses while working on the car(I was/am a tomboy, so I'd love to have a daughter the same way). When I had my first child I had that in mind. Ended up with a little blond baby boy who likes video games more than outdoor stuff, and a blond haired little girl who is ALL girl! I'd never dream to kill them because they're "not what I wanted or planned for". I know snakes aren't humans and it's a little different, but in my opinion every life brought into this world is a miracle and should be cherished. I'm not religious, but I still know that there's a lot of complex stuff at play when a baby of any kind is made.

The "have no chance at a decent life" part could be argued as well. I'm not quite sure where I stand on that one. If I ended up with a deformed snake that ate and acted ok, or maybe even one that was ok, but required more care than the others, I'd probably try to find someone with more means to take care of it. I doubt I could bring myself to killing a healthy snake just because it looks funny. Some of the deformed ones end up having the best personality. I've never had a deformed snake, but I've had a dog missing a leg, couple cats with various problems, and a guinea pig that never got bigger than the palm of my hand. Best animals I ever owned.

To wrap up this book I've now wrote(sorry everyone)...I can't change the world and I know that "needless" killing will go on in any species regardless of what I have to say about it. This is just my opinion regarding the subject.

 

[CaseyUndead]

I voted for number one.. I think it's horrible that someone would breed animals and then just kill the ones they don't want, if the animal is capable of living a full healthy life.

I don't breed anything... but i think that if someone isn't prepared to take care of ALL the babies(and they should realize beforehand that not all of them are going to necessarily be exactly what they want) Then they don't need the responsibility of bringing new lives into the world.

 

[tracy0416]

So if we can somehow bypass the ethics of breeding and owning wild animals then we have no right to judge someone based on their culling practices. Until you can ethically justify breeding these animals you really have no place arguing the ethics of culling.


Joanna

Very interesting take on the issue. However, giving life and taking it away are 2 completely different things. And, just because someone can ethically justify breeding doesn't mean they have, or do not suddenly have, another right automatically bestowed upon them = the right to judge others.

I think that's an over simplification.

Respectfully,
Tracy

 

[tracy0416]

I think it's morally wrong to create animals and then kill perfectly healthy specimens that don't meet your expectations. That is disgusting. If you don't have an outlet for them- or should I say, don't bother to find an outlet for them- you shouldn't be breeding. Each one is a living, breathing creature; a normal has just as much value, in life, as a Cinder. It's inhuman to think otherwise.

Nanci

Ya, what she said... (If I could rep you I would.)

I'm a little shocked actually. I didn't realize people culled because they didn't get what they wanted or for fear of "contaminating" the gene pool.

Isn't there a sterilization pill or operation we can give snakes that may "contaminate" the gene pool?

Is culling the only option? If so, why the hell hasn't someone so "dedicated" to corn snakes fought for, or worked on developing, another option besides killing the animals.

Sterilization seems the more humane/kind/spiritual/thoughtful option to me. Isn't it possible yet?

 

[Ssthisto]

Isn't there a sterilization pill or operation we can give snakes that may "contaminate" the gene pool?

Yes, it is possible to spay/neuter a snake.

However:

1. It's expensive - and if you did it to every hatchling before you sold them, it'd double-or-more the cost of each hatchling to sell.
2. I wouldn't want to be the one to try doing it on hatchlings - they're so tiny that you'd run the risk of losing as many as you successfully had "fixed". At that point you might as well have culled them.
3. Who wants to pay double-or-more the cost for a hatchling that can't even reproduce, in the end? People who pay good money for snakes are often doing it because they intend to breed; Joe Bloggs who just wants a snake as a pet probably doesn't want to pay the extra for a spayed/neutered snake.

I deliberately breed my mice, multimammates and rats.

And yes, I deliberately breed them knowing that half (at LEAST) will be culled. I actively KILL over half of my rodent offspring - because they don't look like what I want to grow up as my future breeders.

The fact that the culled remainder go to feed my snakes is incidental.

And WHEN I breed corns, house snakes and rainbow boas... if there are some that, for legitimate (to me) reasons, should not be allowed to grow up, they will be culled and will go to feed to my king snake.