Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[SnakeAround]

"The fact that the culled remainder go to feed my snakes is incidental."

This is exactly what makes it 'right' for me in this case... your snakes need food anyway, so you can feed them the mice you don't like as breeders... Should you just cull the mice you do not like and throw them away, without trying to give them a good home, your actions would not fit within what I think is ok.

 

[tyflier]

"The fact that the culled remainder go to feed my snakes is incidental."

This is exactly what makes it 'right' for me in this case... your snakes need food anyway, so you can feed them the mice you don't like as breeders... Should you just cull the mice you do not like and throw them away, without trying to give them a good home, your actions would not fit within what I think is ok.

The ends cannot justify the means. If it is OK to cull for one reason, it is OK to cull for any reason. There is not one person among us that has the right to accuse another of "wrongdoing" because of a personal decision that we all must make at one point or another.

I do not have to agree with your reasons for culling to respect your decision as a necessary end. My reasons for culling may be different than someone else's. That does not make one set of self-imposed limitations any more right than another.

This topic has come back up after a long(and, IMO, deserved) hiatus, and is already starting to lean towards the self-righteous. There is no one on this forum that actually keeps snakes, for any reason, that does not cause the ritualistic destruction of another life simply for their own pleasure. By that virtue alone, a stance of "live and let live" should be taken in this instance.

This topic is a viscious circle in which one side will never change the other's opinion, simply because everyone does what they feel is necessary towards their own ends...all of us. I hope it doesn't get ugly...

 

[Ssthisto]

"The fact that the culled remainder go to feed my snakes is incidental."

This is exactly what makes it 'right' for me in this case... your snakes need food anyway, so you can feed them the mice you don't like as breeders... Should you just cull the mice you do not like and throw them away, without trying to give them a good home, your actions would not fit within what I think is ok.

Out of curiosity, where do the following actions fall in 'rightness' ?

1. My reptile food freezer's broken down while I was on holiday and ruined about 75 frozen chicks and 40 frozen mice. Is discarding them 'right'? Those mice and chicks still died and I'm throwing them away...

2. I decide to cull the baby snakes I don't intend to keep as breeders (for whatever reason) ... and feed the culls to my monitor, tegu and king snake. I'm culling the snakes for EXACTLY the same reason I was culling the mice - and doing the exact same thing with them. Is that wrong?

 

[diamondlil]

My 2nd pippie has a herniated area that is still not improving, so I'm going to have to face a decision soon. I'll give it until the weekend and if there's still no change for the better I'll euthanise. Then I'll probably feed it to Skeeter my kingsnake.
I won't feel any better about euthanising it whether I bury it, throw it in the bin or feed Skeeter. Raising any animals means a chance of needing to cull and there's no way around it. Sometimes a decision has to be faced.

 

[jaxom1957]

My 2nd pippie has a herniated area that is still not improving, so I'm going to have to face a decision soon. I'll give it until the weekend and if there's still no change for the better I'll euthanise. Then I'll probably feed it to Skeeter my kingsnake.
I won't feel any better about euthanising it whether I bury it, throw it in the bin or feed Skeeter.

I only have kingsnakes because I have to cull corn snake babies, either for kinks, failure to thrive, whatever. At least if I give the carcasses to the kings, they weren't wasted in a landfill.

 

[SnakeAround]

Out of curiosity, where do the following actions fall in 'rightness' ?

1. My reptile food freezer's broken down while I was on holiday and ruined about 75 frozen chicks and 40 frozen mice. Is discarding them 'right'? Those mice and chicks still died and I'm throwing them away...

2. I decide to cull the baby snakes I don't intend to keep as breeders (for whatever reason) ... and feed the culls to my monitor, tegu and king snake. I'm culling the snakes for EXACTLY the same reason I was culling the mice - and doing the exact same thing with them. Is that wrong?

1 they cannot be used to help another animal thrive so discarding them is 'right'... they have no use at all though it is a pitty it happened..

2 if you read my previous post, you'll know that using animals as food for other animals is 'right' IMO... BUT...; should you ONLY keep the teju etc for its use as a living waste bin (instead as a 'pet' or animal for breeding purposes) I'd say IMO it is not right... or at least far more towards not right...
Creating life to enhance a species within your standards, with the sole purpose to end it if it does not fit your standards, to me is 'wrong'. Throwing it in a living waste bin does not change that... these living waste bins had not even been there if not for discarding life you created, so there existence is abundant, hence is the culling of the unwanted baby's..

Creating life to enhance a species within your standards, and to feed your beloved other animals if this life does not meet your standards, to me is way different... these animals need to be fed anyway.

I do know that this threaed bump might lead to another discussion with all the same arguments but i hope some new views appear

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

I do know that this threaed bump might lead to another discussion with all the same arguments but i hope some new views appear

There are only two views if you break it down to the basics.


for culling
or against

If you cull for any reason then any reason must be acceptable.

If you are against culling, well, simple as that, you're against culling.

you can give long winded speaches about why this is right and that is wrong or why that is right and this is wrong but there are only two true views.


for or against

 

[jaxom1957]

2 if you read my previous post, you'll know that using animals as food for other animals is 'right' IMO... BUT...; should you ONLY keep the teju etc for its use as a living waste bin (instead as a 'pet' or animal for breeding purposes) I'd say IMO it is not right... or at least far more towards not right...

I bought my two kingsnakes specifically because I knew I would be culling hatchlings. I think kings are pretty, but I wanted to focus my collection on corn snakes and a pair of Baird's for variety. The kings will be "living waste bins". That doesn't mean that I don't care for them as pets and give them the same quality care I give all my animals. When I made the decision to buy "waste bins", I set out to find a pair that I thought were lovely in their own right, captive bred and healthy young specimens. I found an aberrant albino Cali male and Yumensis phase Cali female (thanks Mike for the ID!) that I know I'll enjoy having. I don't see how owing an animal is more right or less right based on ones motive for owning it, if one provides it with the same level of care.

 

[Ssthisto]

2 if you read my previous post, you'll know that using animals as food for other animals is 'right' IMO... BUT...; should you ONLY keep the teju etc for its use as a living waste bin (instead as a 'pet' or animal for breeding purposes) I'd say IMO it is not right... or at least far more towards not right...

Well, Domino (the tegu), Diablo (the monitor) and Orion (the king) ARE living wastebaskets by their own choice - but they're also beloved pets.

Heck, if I got a Cali king for the express purpose of breeding Jungle Kings with one of my corns (and to dispose of hatchlings that aren't up to my standards of health and quality) it'd still be a beloved, named pet.

 

[SnakeAround]

There are only two views if you break it down to the basics.


for culling
or against

If you cull for any reason then any reason must be acceptable.

If you are against culling, well, simple as that, you're against culling.

you can give long winded speaches about why this is right and that is wrong or why that is right and this is wrong but there are only two true views.


for or against

Now that is just a 'black and white opinion', IMO. This world would be much less complicated if only yes or no would be vailable answers. Fortunately we are intelligent enough to be able to add 'if' and 'only' to the discussion.

 

[SnakeAround]

I bought my two kingsnakes specifically because I knew I would be culling hatchlings. I think kings are pretty, but I wanted to focus my collection on corn snakes and a pair of Baird's for variety. The kings will be "living waste bins". That doesn't mean that I don't care for them as pets and give them the same quality care I give all my animals. When I made the decision to buy "waste bins", I set out to find a pair that I thought were lovely in their own right, captive bred and healthy young specimens. I found an aberrant albino Cali male and Yumensis phase Cali female (thanks Mike for the ID!) that I know I'll enjoy having. I don't see how owing an animal is more right or less right based on ones motive for owning it, if one provides it with the same level of care.

For what reasons do you cull? That is the other criterium for me...

 

[tyflier]

For what reasons do you cull? That is the other criterium for me...

Statements like this are exactly what bothers me about this topic...

Why is it that you feel everyone must be able to justify their practices according your personal criteria? Why is it not simply accepted that culling is culling, regardless of the reason or the animal being culled? Why must every situation be analyzed against your personal criteria, lest it be considered "wrong"? Do you not sense the extreme arrogance that this statement implies?

The bottom line is, regardless of whether you are stating "your personal opinion", your implications are that anyone who cannot justify their actions by YOUR criteria, is wrong. That is not how "ethics" work, as have been stated in this topic over and over again.

Everytime someone has posted, stating THEIR criteria, you have replied stating how it is different from yours. Why is yours right, and all different opinions wrong? Why can it not be accepted for what it is...a personal choice, and simply let go?

Nobody is implying that your criteria is wrong. People are simply stating the criteria they follow in a given situation. And everytime someone posts that...there almost immediately follows a condesension towards the reply because it does not follow your criteria.

I just don't understand what makes ANYONE think they are "more right" or "more justified" than anyone else in this particular situational topic. It's arrogant, it's uncalled for, and it simply does not make sense, to me...

 

[snakewispera snr]

Statements like this are exactly what bothers me about this topic...

Why is it that you feel everyone must be able to justify their practices according your personal criteria? Why is it not simply accepted that culling is culling, regardless of the reason or the animal being culled? Why must every situation be analyzed against your personal criteria, lest it be considered "wrong"? Do you not sense the extreme arrogance that this statement implies?

The bottom line is, regardless of whether you are stating "your personal opinion", your implications are that anyone who cannot justify their actions by YOUR criteria, is wrong. That is not how "ethics" work, as have been stated in this topic over and over again.

Everytime someone has posted, stating THEIR criteria, you have replied stating how it is different from yours. Why is yours right, and all different opinions wrong? Why can it not be accepted for what it is...a personal choice, and simply let go?

Nobody is implying that your criteria is wrong. People are simply stating the criteria they follow in a given situation. And everytime someone posts that...there almost immediately follows a condesension towards the reply because it does not follow your criteria.

I just don't understand what makes ANYONE think they are "more right" or "more justified" than anyone else in this particular situational topic. It's arrogant, it's uncalled for, and it simply does not make sense, to me...

HEAR HEAR,
This is a sensative and personal subject.
Something only justifiable in ones own mind.
Death is death so how can anyone hope to convince someone whos not involved.

 

[jaxom1957]

For what reasons do you cull? That is the other criterium for me...

Failure to thrive, to the point where death is inevitable. Kinking or other congenital defect that interferes with the snakes ability to process food or move about. Disease or injury that cannot be corrected or would require unreasonably high medical costs to correct. I would cull any snake that, IMO, could not be offered an adult life relatively free of pain or other burdens. That is a subjective criteria; how much pain or burden is acceptable is left to each breeder.

 

[JoannaD]

Failure to thrive, to the point where death is inevitable. Kinking or other congenital defect that interferes with the snakes ability to process food or move about. Disease or injury that cannot be corrected or would require unreasonably high medical costs to correct. I would cull any snake that, IMO, could not be offered an adult life relatively free of pain or other burdens. That is a subjective criteria; how much pain or burden is acceptable is left to each breeder.

To play devil's advocate - Who is the judge of "unreasonably high medical cost"? How do you know what is an unacceptable level of pain or burden to a snake?

I had a snake who had an unfortunate accident and had a broken spine. He never showed any sign of pain after the initial shock. He continued to eat and behave normally. When I smelled that he had a terrible infection we had him put down. Apart from the smell and the fact that the last 3rd of his body did not move normally you would have never known that there was something terribly wrong. How do you judge pain or burden in an animal that shows no signs of it?

 

[Ssthisto]

I had a snake who had an unfortunate accident and had a broken spine. He never showed any sign of pain after the initial shock. He continued to eat and behave normally. When I smelled that he had a terrible infection we had him put down. Apart from the smell and the fact that the last 3rd of his body did not move normally you would have never known that there was something terribly wrong. How do you judge pain or burden in an animal that shows no signs of it?

Potential prey animals are amazing at hiding injuries and pain from potential predators. That's why so many reptiles "look fine" ... until they drop dead.

 

[Demonique]

I got a PM recently from someone who bought four well started corns from me and she told me in so many words that the last one recently died, and she doesn't really know why. And that it had sticky fluid coming from it's mouth when found dead...

So, now all four babies are dead before I hear of this... Kathy's manuals sit collecting dust in pet chains everywhere cause people won't pick up the book, read it, and APPLY it!!!!

I was furious after I got this PM. Why did I bother sending these poor jewels to their torturous death?

And let me guess, she blamed you for selling her sick corns in the first place and wanted a refund...
She must have been doing something wrong to kill four poor little snakes like that

 

[jaxom1957]

To play devil's advocate - Who is the judge of "unreasonably high medical cost"? How do you know what is an unacceptable level of pain or burden to a snake?

"Unreasonable" is reached when I would rather have that dollar amount in my wallet than have the snake in my collection. This is not a democracy: as it concerns my snake and my wallet, I make the decisions, both monetary and medical.

 

[Roy Munson]

I don't like culling. I don't like thawing out culled hatchlings and feeding them to kingsnakes. But I cull what I want, when I want, for whatever reason I want. I've culled snakes with minor kinks that refused their first couple of meals. Sure I could have kept working with them, but I didn't feel like it. And I dispose of the culls in whatever way I see fit. I've fed them to kings, I've thrown them into the bushes, and I've thrown them into the river-- whatever I felt like doing at the time. These are all my decisions to make, and only my opinions count in the matter. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my decisions. Most people do what they want anyway, and they keep quiet about it. :shrugs:

 

[jaxom1957]

These are all my decisions to make, and only my opinions count in the matter. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my decisions.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roy Munson again."

Exactly :cheers: