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Culling 'side product' hatchlings

Culling hatchlings:

  • is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life

    Votes: 155 74.5%
  • 1 + when they are 'side products' and end up in pet shops, overflowing the market

    Votes: 5 2.4%
  • 1 + when hybrid hatchlings can be mistaken for pure, threatening the mass market with their genes

    Votes: 9 4.3%
  • 1 + 2 + 3

    Votes: 24 11.5%
  • is ok when..... (see my post)

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • is never a good thing to do, even a deformed/week hatchling should only die by its defect

    Votes: 13 6.3%

  • Total voters
    208
Roy Munson said:
I don't like culling. I don't like thawing out culled hatchlings and feeding them to kingsnakes. But I cull what I want, when I want, for whatever reason I want. I've culled snakes with minor kinks that refused their first couple of meals. Sure I could have kept working with them, but I didn't feel like it. And I dispose of the culls in whatever way I see fit. I've fed them to kings, I've thrown them into the bushes, and I've thrown them into the river-- whatever I felt like doing at the time. These are all my decisions to make, and only my opinions count in the matter. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my decisions. Most people do what they want anyway, and they keep quiet about it. :shrugs:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Roy Munson again.

I'm going to have to start spreading a bit more reputation around, just so I can give it to you when I need to, Dean. That is extremely well stated.

I think it would be a safe bet that 95% or more of the active members of this forum have never recieved pleasure from culling, and have never done so without a reason. But I would also wager that their reason is somehow "unacceptable" to a few, and deemed "trying too hard" to a few others.

It is an extremely personal decision that takes into account one's OWN beliefs, reasons both medical and financial in nature, goals, needs, desires, situations, and so many other variables that a "complete list" could never exist. This is why an opinion is an opinion, and should not be weighed or viewed as "right" or "wrong" in this situation(and quite often, so many other situations in this hobby). Nobody should feel the need to be ashamed of their decision, nor should they feel they need to justify their decisions to another member of the forum. It should simply be understood that the individual performing the culling has deemed it as necessary according to their needs.

Culling an animal you have created, cared for, hoped for, and loved is never an easy task. Why make it so much more difficult for anyone by questioning their motives, and accusing their actions? :shrugs:
 
This is an interesting debate and lively for all the right reasons.

We ought to be careful that we can justify to ourselves what we do, because that's the best we can ever hope for. Any course of action in this situation will at some point be objectionable to someone else. I fully support what both Dean & tyflier have posted.

Since this debate began, I have my first ever candidate for euthanasia on my hands and this is not a decision that I can make lightly. The first inch of it is kinked and rigid - sadly it survived hatching and now I have to deal with it. After much thought, I've decided that it will end its short life on my Kingsnake's next feeding day.

Breeding is something that most of us do by plan/design/choice. The law of averages dictates that anyone who breeds for long enough, will eventually have to make this decision for whatever reason. Whatever the decision, as long as you make it with a clear conscience and ensure that any despatch is painless, then you've done the best you can.
 
Wow, should sticky this post right here, and keep it out in the open for everyone to read...I love it!

tyflier said:
Statements like this are exactly what bothers me about this topic...

Why is it that you feel everyone must be able to justify their practices according your personal criteria? Why is it not simply accepted that culling is culling, regardless of the reason or the animal being culled? Why must every situation be analyzed against your personal criteria, lest it be considered "wrong"? Do you not sense the extreme arrogance that this statement implies?

The bottom line is, regardless of whether you are stating "your personal opinion", your implications are that anyone who cannot justify their actions by YOUR criteria, is wrong. That is not how "ethics" work, as have been stated in this topic over and over again.

Everytime someone has posted, stating THEIR criteria, you have replied stating how it is different from yours. Why is yours right, and all different opinions wrong? Why can it not be accepted for what it is...a personal choice, and simply let go?

Nobody is implying that your criteria is wrong. People are simply stating the criteria they follow in a given situation. And everytime someone posts that...there almost immediately follows a condesension towards the reply because it does not follow your criteria.

I just don't understand what makes ANYONE think they are "more right" or "more justified" than anyone else in this particular situational topic. It's arrogant, it's uncalled for, and it simply does not make sense, to me...
 
My very first breeding meant having to euthanise a beautiful hatchling, because it had herniated its' gut and more was coming out over the few days of its' life. I didn't take the decision lightly, but also didn't feel I'd have to justify what happened to anyone on here who's opinion I care about. I felt those people would understand perfectly well the mixture of feelings involved in such an event. Enough said.
 

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Diamondlil, I had the same thing happening here and fed off the hatchling to my king, I felt sad, like you did.

Since some posts have been made I did not see yet, I allso add to the discussion again.

@tyflier; discussion is about comparing ones opnions and the reasons and ideas about it. Discussion is not a simple act of stating ones opinion and then saying 'I agree' or I disagree' , that's more like voting. So if I tell what my criteria are , I'm not saying they should be yours or anyone elses. I just need to have more information about the 'case' to be able to form an opinion about it, according to my logic/criteria.

The fact why I do not accept that killing is killing whatever the motive, is that I do not agree on that because I have additional criteria, regarding the motives for it. I think stating that my posts are arrogant because I ask people for their motives, is uncalled for, since the whole thread is about motives for culling hatchlings. Besides that, it is how discussion works IMO as I stated above.

Motives do matter, come on... forcing a door to get in to rob the people on the premices is wrong, forcing a door to get in to provide medical care to someone is ok... you say; forcing a door is forcing a door, case closed. Can you seriously hang on to that?

So, everyone uses his or her own criteria/logic to 'judge' right or wrong. If my criteria/logic says culling hatchlings because they do not meet my breeding project criteria is wrong, it also implicates that it is wrong for others to do... which does NOT implicate that I judge anyone doing it as a bad person. To me it is just not logical at all to say; Hey, I can't do it, cause I think it is wrong, but if anyone else disagrees and culls because of looks, I won't judge the action. For me that would be like saying; Hey, I do not steal bikes because that is wrong, but if others do and can justify themselves according to their own criteria/logic, I don't mind.... Hell, terrorists can justify themselves according to their own mindset, should we let them do whatever they feel like doing? I know, extreme example but same logic....
 
Blutengel said:
...@tyflier; discussion is about comparing ones opnions and the reasons and ideas about it. Discussion is not a simple act of stating ones opinion and then saying 'I agree' or I disagree' , that's more like voting. So if I tell what my criteria are , I'm not saying they should be yours or anyone elses. I just need to have more information about the 'case' to be able to form an opinion about it, according to my logic/criteria.

The fact why I do not accept that killing is killing whatever the motive, is that I do not agree on that because I have additional criteria, regarding the motives for it. I think stating that my posts are arrogant because I ask people for their motives, is uncalled for, since the whole thread is about motives for culling hatchlings. Besides that, it is how discussion works IMO as I stated above.

Motives do matter, come on... forcing a door to get in to rob the people on the premices is wrong, forcing a door to get in to provide medical care to someone is ok... you say; forcing a door is forcing a door, case closed. Can you seriously hang on to that?

So, everyone uses his or her own criteria/logic to 'judge' right or wrong. If my criteria/logic says culling hatchlings because they do not meet my breeding project criteria is wrong, it also implicates that it is wrong for others to do... which does NOT implicate that I judge anyone doing it as a bad person. To me it is just not logical at all to say; Hey, I can't do it, cause I think it is wrong, but if anyone else disagrees and culls because of looks, I won't judge the action. For me that would be like saying; Hey, I do not steal bikes because that is wrong, but if others do and can justify themselves according to their own criteria/logic, I don't mind.... Hell, terrorists can justify themselves according to their own mindset, should we let them do whatever they feel like doing? I know, extreme example but same logic....
Come on...you have NEVER ONCE in this ENTIRE TOPIC said, "OK...that's your opinion." I do not "judge" other people's personal actions, and I don't expect you to judge mine.(for the record...that was YOUR choice of words)

Every single post that had a different opinion from yours was immediately followed by a reply from you to the effect of "but why? why couldn't you have done this or that or something different? why not simply avoid breeding? Why not cut back on your projects? why not spend more money and get homo. adults? why not do...."

Why? Because I wanted to. Because he, she, or they wanted to. Because they were my snakes and I couldn't possibly care less about YOUR opinion of the matter. Because it is none of your business how, why, when, or for what reasons I choose to cull any animal that belongs to me.

I have absolutely no problem with an exchange of opinions. But the bottom line is quite simply...you are asking everyone to explain themselves to you, and nobody needs to do that. And even when people HAVE done that, you have continued to announce for the whole world to see that you disapprove of their actions. You stated, in your own words, that you want "...to have more information about the 'case' to be able to form an opinion about it, according to my logic/criteria." Why do you feel the need to be a "judge" for any instance? Why do you "need more information" to form your own opinion about it? It isn't your snake, it isn't your action, it doesn't involve you, even remotely, so why be a judge of it? Judging the action or the person doesn't matter...nobody asked you to be the morality supervisor over the culling hatchlings.


Nobody cares if you disapprove. I certainly don't. At the very least...no one SHOULD care if you disapprove. I'm done with the topic. I am really sick of trying to explain myself to you and I won't do it anymore. Don't ask me for my reasons. You want my answer? Read the topic. I have clearly and definitively laid out every answer that I am going to give you. I certainly can't be expected to reasonably and rationally respond to such blather as the completely unrelated comparison you give above. That doesn't even come CLOSE to being a relative example...burglaries and terrorists are equal to culling a captive bred hatchling that belongs solely and entirely to me and impacts you in no way, shape or form whatsoever? That's pretty ridiculous, don't you think? It's not like anyone plans on coming to your house and culling YOUR hatchlings by THEIR criteria, are they? Please...get realistic about the conversation if you intend to continue it... :rolleyes:
 
I never said I do not judge other peoples actions, because I do judge other peoples actions, especially in a discussion. I feel the need to 'judge' other peoples opinions because that is the idea of discussion.... talk about ones opinions, their motives and what you think about them. If people care about my opinion, that's fine, if they don't they don't but that doesn't mean we cannot talk about it... to me it seems like you do not see the difference between discussion and justification. I certainly do not feel like people want me to justify my opinion/actions, cause I know it is an discussion and I do not need to act according to anyone elses opinion if I do not agree and I do not get punished if I do not. We are not in court and I do know that I am not a judge, nor is anyone else.

I do understand that in no way anyone on this forum needs to justify themselves to me or anyone else here, but we can talk about motives cause that is the interesting part of it. Just measuring opninions can be done in a poll... If people want to join the discussion but are not willing to tell their motives/logic behind their actions/opinion, what else we can discuss?

I know that actions of terrorists are not even close by far to culling your own hatchlings, but I just can't understand how people can ignore motives in any case. To me actually motives are more important in less heavy discussions like this one then in case of terrorists... they do things so bad that no motives can justify it... LOL just broke down my onw example.

I do see that we will never agree and if I am right we already agreed to disagree months ago, so let us stick to that now if you are fed up with discussing the way I discuss, cause discussing the way you do is not my cup of tea either (not to be taken bad) :)
 
I have no problem with discussing one's opinions, motives, and morals regarding any given situation. I DO take issue with the judgement of those morals, motives and opinions.

In other words...you don't have to agree with someone, their actions, or the motives/morals that dictate those actions. But does anyone need to continue to question and seek justification about another person's actions? Should any person feel the need to justify themselves against another's standards?

You feel that justifications and an exchange of moral opinion is the basis of conversation...weighing mine against yours. I disagree with this.

I feel that the basis of discussion is the free exchange of ideas without anyone feeling the need to justify those ideas. I can just as easily sit down and have an intelligent conversation with a racial supremecist as I can a snake lover. The reason for that is because I never feel a need to judge that person against my own actions. My opinion is, has been, and always will be, that as long as you do not harm another living person or creature needlessly...do whatever you like with your own body and your own possessions. And I can apply that same notion to just about any conversation and be satisfied with the outcome of the discussion...

People have given you their opinion, stated the reasons behind those opinions, and expressed their moral motivation to support those opinions. That should be enough to make quite a good conversation. There is no need to continue saying "I don't agree with that because of my own opinion". Everyone that has read the topic is well aware of wether or not you will agree with the opinion they post. There is no reason to constantly and continually inform every person that posts that their actions are not justifiable by your standards. If you want to continue to read other people's opinions...fine. Everyone already knows what your opinion, and my opinion, are on this subject. I don't come on here after every post that is contrary to my own opinion and tell that person how their opinion is different than mine, and why. I don't need to, and it's uncalled for. It's called being judgemental, no matter what words you use to describe it...
 
To be honest, I did not feel sad for what I did. I felt sad it was necessary. As I said before, I don't care if anyone thinks badly about me, I justified my actions to myself. If every single poster on here had told me I was a monster for ending the snake's life instead of letting it die naturally, I'd tell them as politely as I could where to stick their opinions
 
What an individual breeder decides to keep or cull from their own clutches is their own personal business. In the example of jungle corns, if the breeder only wanted to perpetuate the look of a hybrid that showed the characteristics of both the kingsnake and the cornsnake, culling those that too closely resembled either species, that is just fine by me. Doing so in hopes to prevent the possible mistaken identity of these hatchlings and therefore possibly "contaminating" the pure species is a very good thought, IMO. It may not be 100% effective, but it's got better potential than many of the current practices.

A comparison to a dog breeder culling puppies that don't fit a breed standard has been made. An example of this that I am personally familiar is with "lemon" colored German Short-haired Pointers. Way back when that breed was being created, a then well-known pointer breed was used in the mix, and that breed could produce light tan-colored pups. However, over time, that color was not allowed by the breed standard of the GSHP. But as occasionally happens, you get throw-backs. These puppies are culled by the breeder to prevent them from potentially reproducing and perpetuating that color. Yes, the breeder could sell it as a pet-quality dog with the stipulation of it being neutered/spayed so it can't reproduce. But how do you guarantee that happening? You could have a written contract, but unless you spend the time and effort to keep track of that pup and verify the owner does as the contract says, it's just a piece of paper. OK, you have it neutered/spayed yourself. Now you have invested more time and money in a pet-quality dog. How are you going to be reimbursed for that time and money? Raise the price of the dog? But who is going to spend even more money on a neutered/spayed pet-quality dog that doesn't fit the breed standard when they could get a breedable dog that does fit the breed standard for an equal price? And with snakes, you don't even have the viable option of getting them neutered/spayed.

And now lets use pure cornsnakes in an example. I'm a middle-of-the-road breeder, currently capable of producing about 200-250 hatchlings a year. I currently can produce a wide range of morphs, but most of them are middle- to lower-end morphs. Since I am the mother of 2 elementary school children and have a full-time job to help support my family, the time I have available to raise 200+ hatchlings, and sell them, is limited. In previous years, I was able to wholesale them all. Unfortunately, I no longer have that outlet and I have had to sell them myself. I am unable to attend shows because of my job and family so have had to depend upon the internet for sales. I had a difficult time trying to juggle my work-load when I had the maximum number of hatchlings still in my possession. I am seriously considering culling many of the least sellable hatchlings in order to not only reduce my work-load as well as my expense in simply raising those hatchlings, but to also be able to provide more time and effort in the remaining hatchlings. There are more than enough normal, amel and anery cornsnakes on the market. My 50 - 75 will not be missed, and my kingsnakes will be well-fed as a bonus.

In the case of just having to many snakes rather then cull them why not just post an add on craigslist to get ride of a bunch? Maybe at dirt cheap prices.
 
Quite frankly it does not matter to others what my terms to cull are, it is my choice and at times it may seem insane to the most resonable people.. Of course, I won't get drawn into a debate where I must justify my actions to any one, because it will never be seen as correct..

Whether people believe it or not, this is a dead horse debate that takes place any wheres there is a site dealing with animals and such..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
I don't have a problem with anyone questioning any motives if they think they are immoral.
I still agree with most of the people here that say "my reasons are my own".. I just don't see why anyone thinks it's wrong for blutengel (sp?) to question our reasons? Or to judge them even, the judgement is over the practice, not the person..
We don't have to take offense, and we don't have to argue back any longer than we want to. That's why I've stayed out of this long debate, for the most part.
Honestly, I'd worry more if she didn't feel inclined to argue the point considering her feelings on it, right?

*I'm not directing this to anyone in particular.
 
In the case of just having to many snakes rather then cull them why not just post an add on craigslist to get ride of a bunch? Maybe at dirt cheap prices.

Dirt cheap pet = Disposable pet. It's more humane to cull them and feed them to kingsnakes than to hand them over to the people who are looking for "dirt cheap" snakes (imo). What's so bad about producing a little surplus for the kings anyway? There are keepers and breeders of cobras (and other snake-eaters) who raise colonies of corns for the sole purpose of feeding them to other snakes. We corn enthusiasts may not LIKE the idea, but the rodent enthusiasts are probably not our biggest fans either...
 
...I just don't see why anyone thinks it's wrong for blutengel (sp?) to question our reasons? Or to judge them even, the judgement is over the practice, not the person.....
It seems to me that it is very difficult, at best, to morally judge a person's actions without morally judging the person for committing those actions. If I look at something that you do, and cannot fathom how a reasonable person could do such a thing...doesn't that make it difficult for me to consider you a reasonable person? If I look at something that you do as a general practice, and question the morality of that action...don't I automatically question the morals of you, who performs the action?

I really don't see much of a distinction between judging a person's actions and judging a person, when you are talking about a moral judgement. I cannot judge a pedophile's actions without judging them as a person. I cannot judge a repeat DUI driver's actions, without judging them as a person. I cannot judge a chronic gambler's actions without judging them as a person. There thousands more examples of judging an "immoral action" being inseperable from judging an immoral person. The actions are committed by a person. If I disagree with the actions, I inherantly disagree with the person. The two are nigh inseperable, IMO...

And thus...the reason I take offense to the "judgement" of a person(or their actions) in such a personal matter...
 
Dirt cheap pet = Disposable pet. It's more humane to cull them and feed them to kingsnakes than to hand them over to the people who are looking for "dirt cheap" snakes (imo). What's so bad about producing a little surplus for the kings anyway? There are keepers and breeders of cobras (and other snake-eaters) who raise colonies of corns for the sole purpose of feeding them to other snakes. We corn enthusiasts may not LIKE the idea, but the rodent enthusiasts are probably not our biggest fans either...
Excellent points, all.

And might I second a point that's been made, but not been made much of. As a buyer I would buy from Dean BECAUSE I think he won't go to unnecessary lengths to get a snake to eat. That's also why I feel comfortable buying outo f the egg from big breeders, because I know they can't possible have time to work with problem feeders. As a purchaser, I know I'll get breeding stock that will, in all likelihood, both be and produce reasonably good feeders.

In future as a breeder, I won't give away a poor feeder or one that takes great lengths to get eating to ANYONE, because I can't be sure that it won't be bred, and I don't want to contribute to there being poor-feeding CB snakes. I think it very important that CB snakes be much easier on the keeper than WC, because I am very interested, ethically, in minimizing the number of snakes taken from the wild to support hobbies like ours, so I become very interested, ethically, in ensuring that CB stock is more attractive to the average hobbiest than WC stock. Therefore, poor feeders will never have the chance to leave my house alive. At the moment, my threshhold for a poor feeder is one that won't take a rodent in some form or another. I will offer lizard scented pinkies and I may offer live if I can find one easily, but I won't ever offer a lizard. And under no circumstances would I ever force-feed a hatchling, either. I don't want those traits, or any genetic contribution to those traits, however small that might be, entering the market. Part of captive breeding is purifying selection for desired traits, and in my book, a good feeding response is pretty high up on that list.
 
It seems to me that it is very difficult, at best, to morally judge a person's actions without morally judging the person for committing those actions. If I look at something that you do, and cannot fathom how a reasonable person could do such a thing...doesn't that make it difficult for me to consider you a reasonable person? If I look at something that you do as a general practice, and question the morality of that action...don't I automatically question the morals of you, who performs the action?

I really don't see much of a distinction between judging a person's actions and judging a person, when you are talking about a moral judgement. I cannot judge a pedophile's actions without judging them as a person. I cannot judge a repeat DUI driver's actions, without judging them as a person. I cannot judge a chronic gambler's actions without judging them as a person. There thousands more examples of judging an "immoral action" being inseperable from judging an immoral person. The actions are committed by a person. If I disagree with the actions, I inherantly disagree with the person. The two are nigh inseperable, IMO...

And thus...the reason I take offense to the "judgement" of a person(or their actions) in such a personal matter...

But if I'm critical of 'Bill' the cohabber in a thread, it's not because of the 'Bill' part. He might go ahead and argue with me FOR his practice or just leave it alone for various reasons..

Or I'm wrong about judging 'Bill' and I should just quietly watch as he tells people, "It's great! Saves lot's of space!! The snakes love the company!" Why should I be quiet? Cause it would be the same as a personal attack against 'Bill' since he does cohab?

Let's not be so sensitive. This is either a worthwhile conversation to have or it's not...
 
But if I'm critical of 'Bill' the cohabber in a thread, it's not because of the 'Bill' part. He might go ahead and argue with me FOR his practice or just leave it alone for various reasons..

Or I'm wrong about judging 'Bill' and I should just quietly watch as he tells people, "It's great! Saves lot's of space!! The snakes love the company!" Why should I be quiet? Cause it would be the same as a personal attack against 'Bill' since he does cohab?

Let's not be so sensitive. This is either a worthwhile conversation to have or it's not...
Not quite. You're also not criticizing or "judging" the action of co-habbing. You're judging the action of giving people false information about co-habbing...but not the co-habbing itself. "Bill" is providing half of the information, and making it seem as though the information he is providing is "accepted husbandry", and quite simply it isn't.

You absolutely do NOT have to condemn "Bill" or his co-habbing ways to inform people that it is not accepted husbandry practice. It is very easy to say, "Bill, it is generally accepted that co-habbing shouldn't be done for the following reasons...., and because of those reasons, it is recommended that beginner keepers not participate in co-habbing." And never once did I judge "Bill's" actions, nor "Bill" himself. And anyone reading the topic is left to decide for themselves when, how or if they will ever co-hab their snakes, with all reasonable information supplied in a polite and non-condemning manner.

That is a HUGE difference from what is happening in this thread. If "Bill" is informing people of how and why he chooses to co-hab, and people start trashing him because they disagree with his ways, or even just simply start repeatedly asking him to provide them with valid reasons as to why he does it...I'm likely to say something. In fact...if you search all posts made by me, you'll find that I HAVE found myself in similar situations, and HAVE defended the "co-habber" from the throngs that "attacked" them, simply because it is a personal choice that everyone must make.

Just because something isn't generally accepted, doesn't mean it is patently wrong. As long as "Bill" isn't providing false or misleading information about co-habbing...he shouldn't have to defend his right to do so, nor should he have to defend his choice to do so. Same thing applies here. Just because this community generally frowns upon culling of offspring for anything other than physical deformities, pain, or lack of "fruitful and healthy life" doesn't mean it is patently wrong. And anyone who DOES participate in it should not have to defend the manner in which they do it, nor the choice they have made TO do it.

Do you see the difference? To me, and I admit that I may be biased, the difference is glaring between the situation you have "Bill" in, and the situation I have "Bill" in. IMO, the situation as I describe is MUCH more closely related to the situation at thand than the one you have him in.

All due Respect-
Chris
 
Dirt cheap pet = Disposable pet. It's more humane to cull them and feed them to kingsnakes than to hand them over to the people who are looking for "dirt cheap" snakes (imo). What's so bad about producing a little surplus for the kings anyway? There are keepers and breeders of cobras (and other snake-eaters) who raise colonies of corns for the sole purpose of feeding them to other snakes. We corn enthusiasts may not LIKE the idea, but the rodent enthusiasts are probably not our biggest fans either...

At least in that case they are getting used for something.
 
Not quite. You're also not criticizing or "judging" the action of co-habbing. You're judging the action of giving people false information about co-habbing...but not the co-habbing itself. "Bill" is providing half of the information, and making it seem as though the information he is providing is "accepted husbandry", and quite simply it isn't.

I think I do judge the practice and find it wanting, lol. And I don't think that's wrong. I don't know if I 'condemn' anyone.. If that's something that has happened in this thread I didn't see it.

Just because something isn't generally accepted, doesn't mean it is patently wrong. As long as "Bill" isn't providing false or misleading information about co-habbing...he shouldn't have to defend his right to do so, nor should he have to defend his choice to do so. Same thing applies here. Just because this community generally frowns upon culling of offspring for anything other than physical deformities, pain, or lack of "fruitful and healthy life" doesn't mean it is patently wrong. And anyone who DOES participate in it should not have to defend the manner in which they do it, nor the choice they have made TO do it.

Nobody has to defend themselves even if they breed their cornsnakes for meat and leather, IMO. But I would expect that if they want to put up a thread here describing it, it would probably be a lively one.

When you say "anyone who does participate" do you mean in culling or in the thread? I think if the conversation is about views on culling, and you join in and offer your views, you can expect to have them challenged. If anyone isn't ready to "defend the manner in which they do it" they aren't ready for the debate..

All due Respect
-

And to you! :cheers:
 
In the case of just having to many snakes rather then cull them why not just post an add on craigslist to get ride of a bunch? Maybe at dirt cheap prices.

The only problem with doing that is that people think that things which are cheap are disposable. I worry about selling my babies too cheap because I am afraid that the people who buy them JUST because they are not expensive will not be willing to make the appropriate outlays to house and care for them correctly. It's been seen plenty of times with iguanas, hamsters, geckos... if you pay $5 for an animal, you don't want to spend $100 to get its housing and you sure don't want to spend $500 if it's ill and needs to go to a vet.

If someone sees $5 for a bunch of baby corns, they might buy a load of them as feeders (which I actually don't object to - if I were going to sell them dirt cheap I would probably be offering them SPECIFICALLY to people who knew how to humanely euthanise them or to feed them to specialist animals that will only take live reptiles); they might buy half a dozen for their kid "in case one dies" and buy one cage; they might buy one and think that "oh, I don't need any special equipment, and crickets are cheap."

Yeah, you might get one or two GENUINE buyers, willing to learn and willing to make the outlay for the animal... but I'm betting the vast majority are going to be the same sort of crowd who win a goldfish at the fair and plunk it into a cheap fishbowl full of tapwater... and then complain that goldfish always die after a couple of weeks.

I would much rather humanely euthanise my 'unsaleable surplus' and use it as an additional feeding source for my own reptiles than run the risk that someone else is just going to let it die a slow death through neglect because *I* made the animal have little to no "value".

Though you get down to it, my two planned pairings at this point should not produce any little normals, I've got a one-in-four chance of producing pattern morphs in both pairings (bloodred in one, stripe in the other) and everything is expected to be Anery at a minimum. I don't have plans at this point to produce more than I think I can easily sell - though if my two first-timer girls pop out thirty eggs each instead of eight to fifteen, I might be singing a slightly different tune (and considering whether my tegus and monitor might not like the occasional little reluctant-feeder snack.)
 
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