Disappointment: First '07 Hatchling

[Roy Munson]

That sucks so much. I'm never breeding snakes. I'd be out slitting my wrists now.

Well, I'm not going to lie; this situation has given me a bad case of the blues. I just wish that some good ones would hatch out soon and lift me out of the funk.

 

[SnakeCreations]

Ahhh Dean....

I'm sorry to hear this sad news. Sure bites the big one.

-Tonya

 

[dionythicus]

I'm so sorry that this is happening! Is it possible that the parents are closely related and this is genetic? I hope that something in this clutch hatches out ok for you.

 

[Roy Munson]

Yeah, it sucks, Tonya. (Your new username keeps throwing me off!)

I'm so sorry that this is happening! Is it possible that the parents are closely related and this is genetic? I hope that something in this clutch hatches out ok for you.

It's very possible. The parents are both '05 Serpenco pewters. They were ordered separately, but that doesn't really mean much. I probably won't pair them next year. If I decide to make more pewters, I'll try to steal Joe Cala's super-pewter from him next season. I liked this season's pairing because both parents are very dark pewters, and I was hoping to produce more like them. Oh well.

 

[Noe..gr]

Don't worry about it Dean!When something goes wrong I always have the impression that something real good would follow to set things straight! :wavey:

I bet now Murphy owes you good luck!!

 

[toyah]

How many more are left to hatch? If they're all (or a large number are) like that ... it's going to be environmental, not genetic. So I guess even if it's horrible news this year, at least it means you can pair the parents together next year.

 

[Roy Munson]

Thanks for the encouragement, Makis. My pewter x blizzard clutch that was laid on the same day is just starting to pip. There's one charcoal head peeking out of an egg, and it's not a dome-head. If he comes all the way out and he's kinked, I'm going to start throwing things.

How many more are left to hatch? If they're all (or a large number are) like that ... it's going to be environmental, not genetic. So I guess even if it's horrible news this year, at least it means you can pair the parents together next year.

I don't know if that conclusion can be decisively drawn, Toyah. I don't think you can rule out incubation conditions or genetics, no matter what comes out (or doesn't) of the seven or eight good-looking eggs that are left.

I had eight other clutches in the incubator, all in identical containers (no holes) with identical conditions (i.e. same perlite to water ratio). One clutch went completely bad early. One clutch has a couple eggs that look iffy. The other six look perfect. One of the suspected causes of the dome-head condition that I read about is excess moisture. A few of the clutches had drops of water condense on the container lid, but I wiped them down once a week. That was early on anyway. Since then, there has only been the fogging that usually indicates proper humidity. However, I'm going to go even drier than I did this season with next year's clutches.

:shrugs:

 

[cornmorphs]

seems a shame to let him go when he is generally healthy looking really.
looks kinda cute

 

[Roy Munson]

seems a shame to let him go when he is generally healthy looking really.
looks kinda cute

Well, generally I think hatchlings like this should be culled on principle. But even though I've been working on becoming a heartless #@$%^*)&, I'm not there yet. A member here whom I can trust not to breed this snake has asked me for it. If I can get it to eat 2-3 times, it'll get its chance to be a pet. It really is a cute little thing.

If that member hadn't PM'd me when he did today, the snake would be euthanized by now.

 

[Nanci]

I had a dome-head cleft palate puppy once. I wanted to euthanize it, but the vet tech wanted to take it home. I guess if you're positive the animal isn't going to be bred, it's ok to let it have a chance. Especially when there is something to be learned- will this snake outgrow the condition and go on to live a normal point? But is _that_ a moot point, since, even leading a normal life, it shouldn't be bred, I guess. Genetic defect or premature birth- that is the question.

Nanci

 

[toyah]

I don't know if that conclusion can be decisively drawn, Toyah. I don't think you can rule out incubation conditions or genetics, no matter what comes out (or doesn't) of the seven or eight good-looking eggs that are left.

Well no, you wouldn't be able to rule it out completely - but the balance of probabilities is that if an entire clutch or the vast majority of a clutch is affected then it's more likely to be environmental than if only, say, a quarter or so of a clutch is affected. They're such nice adults you mated that it would almost seem a shame to rule them out completely from breeding if the statistics suggest non-genetic ...

 

[desertanimal]

Well no, you wouldn't be able to rule it out completely - but the balance of probabilities is that if an entire clutch or the vast majority of a clutch is affected then it's more likely to be environmental than if only, say, a quarter or so of a clutch is affected. They're such nice adults you mated that it would almost seem a shame to rule them out completely from breeding if the statistics suggest non-genetic ...

I still don't think you can draw this conclusion. To the contrary, if it turns out to be only one clutch in the incubator with these problems, the evidence would clearly lean TOWARD genetic incompatibililty. If it turns out to be multiple clutches (god forbid) only THEN would it lean toward environment. And in fact, the other clutches being incubated in the same environment will shed light on this issue (which is one GOOD thing to come out of this nasty turn of events for Dean).

You're assuming, here, that genetic abnormality due to inbreeding only acts like a recessive Mendelian trait, and that's not a safe assumption. There are plenty of traints that aren't Mendelian at all; there are lots of genes that influence more than one trait, and lots of traits that are influenced by more than one gene (like human eye color). And, there's lots to inbreeding depression that we don't fully understand, and shouldn't dismiss out of hand. There's good clear evidence of inbreeding depression in plants (as a continuous effect, not as a 1:3 ratio like you're suggesting), and I know of one story (from a geneticist who worked with these people) of a couple completely unable to produce viable zygotes due to HLA incompatibilty. Something ridiculous like 17 miscarriages. I'm not well-versed in these issues, but I do know enough to know that we're not necessarily only talking about simple recessive Mendelian traits when we're talking about the negative effects of inbreeding. Sure, if all inbreeding is doing is bringing together deleterious Mendelian traits, then you're right about your numerical expectations. But that's really not all there is to inbreeding. To be honest, if I were Dean, I'd be praying that it IS something about inbreeding. Because if it's something about incubation environment, he's got a lot more clutches in that metaphorical basket to worry about. But I don't think he has reason to worry. He's incubated just fine before, and Joe's clutch was fine. So at this point, the most probable conclusion is that it's some incompatibilty issue between the parents. The story could change, but I sure hope it doesn't.

 

[toyah]

You can't draw any conclusion, you can only play the odds. There are so many things that can cause problems in clutches - maybe at a particular point during egg production the female had a small amount of a particular trace element in the water that she reacted badly to, or there was something in the air that affected her, or a mouse she ate with some sort of issue that caused her not to produce the eggs in an ideal way ... anything could be a cause. Just because something only affects one clutch doesn't mean it can't be environmental, it can't be ruled out.

I am assuming that whatever genetic abnormality this is, if it's genetic, is acting as a recessive trait as that is what the evidence is pointing us towards, unless one or both parents also suffers from this condition. Recessive traits causing unwanted problems are more common than dominant genes causing unwanted problems, simply since it's easier to select against a dominant. I hope it's not a recessive genetic abnormality in Serpenco pewter lines though, as if it is I expect we'll see a lot more of them over the next few years.

Inbreeding depression tends to cause smaller clutch/litter sizes and impaired fertility, right the way down to being sterile - that doesn't seem to fit this scenario - and plus I'd not expect inbreeding depression to cause deformities, in fact it would reduce deformities since you can't get the buggers to breed! (I'm currently working with a line of rats that's not been outcrossed in 25 years ... it's not easy to get babies out of them - inbreeding depression is on the front of my mind at the moment!). If the parents are related, it would make something like HLA incompatibility a longer shot too as that is more likely in genetically very different animals, isn't it?

I guess at this point it's all academic while we wait for the rest of them to hatch. I hope you can take good news from the rest of them either way Dean, but either way, I'm sorry about the babies you've hatched so far, and I hope they live happy lives, however long they are.

 

[Eremita]

Man, Dean, I just saw this and I'm sorry to hear about your woes. Given how obsessive you seem to be about proper care for your animals at every stage, if this is incubation-related then I fear the community as a whole doesn't know as much about breeding these guys as we think. I would not be surprised if high-end breeders had to deal with more of these problems then average, but as this is my first year going through the process (vicariously of course), it's only a hypothesis.

Good luck with the other clutches; whatever happens with this batch, I'm sure there will be some amazing and healthy hatchlings to come this year.

-Sean

 

[cornmorphs]

Well, generally I think hatchlings like this should be culled on principle. But even though I've been working on becoming a heartless #@$%^*)&, I'm not there yet. A member here whom I can trust not to breed this snake has asked me for it. If I can get it to eat 2-3 times, it'll get its chance to be a pet. It really is a cute little thing.

If that member hadn't PM'd me when he did today, the snake would be euthanized by now.

nah thats cool, i do see where you are coming from

 

[Duff]

Hope you've gotten some good news since the last update. I had a small dome-head my first year breeding (first out of the clutch, so maybe a bit premature?) and he just never got going. He would eat sporadically, and seemed to be ok, but never really grew and did start to look like he was going downhill after close to a year. I eventually ended up culling him, because he just never really got on track or put on much of any size. He also had a bit of a stub nose going as well, so not sure if there was more wrong with him then your's. Here's hoping for better days ahead.

 

[JoannaD]

Well, generally I think hatchlings like this should be culled on principle. But even though I've been working on becoming a heartless #@$%^*)&, I'm not there yet. A member here whom I can trust not to breed this snake has asked me for it. If I can get it to eat 2-3 times, it'll get its chance to be a pet. It really is a cute little thing.

If that member hadn't PM'd me when he did today, the snake would be euthanized by now.

I completely understand where you are coming from. I am in the same boat right now and I am very disappointed in myself!

Sorry about these first two hatchlings. I hope all the rest are fine.

Joanna

 

[Roy Munson]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Hope you've gotten some good news since the last update. I had a small dome-head my first year breeding (first out of the clutch, so maybe a bit premature?) and he just never got going. He would eat sporadically, and seemed to be ok, but never really grew and did start to look like he was going downhill after close to a year. I eventually ended up culling him, because he just never really got on track or put on much of any size. He also had a bit of a stub nose going as well, so not sure if there was more wrong with him then your's. Here's hoping for better days ahead.

Thanks man. No more have hatched from the dome-heads' clutch, but I got a nice little charcoal out of the other clutch I've mentioned, and some other good looking ones were pipping this morning.

I appreciate your reply because there is very little info out there about dome-heads. You've also given me some hope, because the first two out of the pewter clutch were the dome-heads, but there are still good eggs that haven't pipped. Maybe these two WERE premature. It's also interesting to read an account from someone who tried to raise one. These accounts are VERY scarce. The surviving dome-head looks ok for now, so maybe he'll make it and I can ship him off to his "rescuer".

 

[carol]

I have seen this in clutches when some hatched premature, but I've always wondered if they hatched premature because of the dome head or did they have a dome head because they hatched premature. I've definitely hatched domed heads in clutches where the rest were fine and the following year the same pairing produced none. However, I've also heard of lines that produced a lot of them. "Back in the day", (LOL, well maybe only about 8 years ago) I remember Don S. telling me that a lot of the Rainwater Lavenders produced clutches with a lot of domed headed babies, or as he called them "helmet heads". I'm sure he incubated them just the same as all his others and would imagine he's got his incubation down to a science.

 

[jaxom1957]

I have seen this in clutches when some hatched premature, but I've always wondered if they hatched premature because of the dome head or did they have a dome head because they hatched premature.

With the trait showing up frequently in clutches that pip before their expected hatch date, perhaps it's not at fault in the deaths, but is a harbinger of other problems. It could be that most dome headed hatchlings die because the trait is but one sign of incomplete development. The failure of other organs or systems to mature before hatching may be the cause of death, even if the misshapen skull, in and of itself, isn't fatal.