Does sale of puppies at a pet store turn you off?

[The Nothing]

not a fan of petshops with dogs
but
i will absolutely refuse to go to anyplace with Birds

 

[tricksterpup]

I have to disagree with most of the posts here. One of the shops I go to sells puppies and kittens. They bring them home every night with them but they sell them none the less. They are fed top of the line foods while they are in the store. They get these dogs and cats from local breeders as well. Most of their animals are from local breeders as well.
First check your local shop before spouting off lines like this. Not all shops are the way you are claiming.
And if you want to compare something, many of the larger breeders of snakes here and a few of the big ball breeders could be consider snake farms as well.

 

[Hypancistrus]

And if you want to compare something, many of the larger breeders of snakes here and a few of the big ball breeders could be consider snake farms as well.

Snakes are A-okay without us in their lives. Their emotional lives are quite uneventful. A puppy on the other hand needs to be socialized to live with people from DAY 1, lest you end up with a neurotic, sometimes dangerous dog. You really think they get that living on a farm, in a rabbit hutch, or old stall, or wherever it is the "farmer" decides to put them?? That is why I cannot support puppy mills of any kind- dogs are far too intense a creature, too complex a creature, to be raised in a cage.

If you are equating snake farming with dog farming, and saying they are the same, then I don't reckon there's much we can say to one another.

And as for local breeders who would sell to a store, with no care as to where the pup ends up... well, I don't have much of a use for them either. They are a step above the puppy mills, in my eyes.

 

[SWINGRRRR]

I have to disagree with most of the posts here. One of the shops I go to sells puppies and kittens. They bring them home every night with them but they sell them none the less. They are fed top of the line foods while they are in the store. They get these dogs and cats from local breeders as well. Most of their animals are from local breeders as well.
First check your local shop before spouting off lines like this. Not all shops are the way you are claiming.
And if you want to compare something, many of the larger breeders of snakes here and a few of the big ball breeders could be consider snake farms as well.

Sir, I would agree that we disagree. That is awesome that, that shop is like that. But you must concede that, that is a rarity.


(Sorry for using "that" so much.)

 

[Drizzt80]

I don't know which way to swing in this discussion, but would prefer to ask a question of a different 'color':

By purchasing a puppy from a private individual, what assurances are in place that this puppy is taken care of any more or less than a puppy in a pet store?

Regardless of the answer, I would point out that a pet store's wares are on display for you to see whenever you walk in the door. "Problems" would (and are) difficult to "hide". A private individual could "clean up" in the expectation of visitors. A private individual may not allow you to see their breeding facility . . . and wouldn't necessarily blame them if it's their own home. A private individual could very easily hide many of the "problems" that people have with pet store care.

Now, my words may indicate I'm arguing against getting a puppy from a private individual, NOT AT ALL! You probably do have a better chance of finding a well raised puppy from a private individual, BUT you also have a pet store's wares in the open during business hours and can't prove or disprove "problems" in a private individual's sale.

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another really. :shrugs:
D80

PS. I have seen AKC registered dogs for sale in pet stores for as long as I can remember!

 

[aameenah]

Just have to chime in. We sell puppies and kittens at our store, but they're from local accidental litters that would otherwise end up in shelters. We get some interesting mixed breeds and the rare purebred, but so do shelters.
While I absolutely commend keeping your business away from dodgy operations, take a chance and ask them where the animals come from, what the adoption procedure is like etc before blowing it off as "It's a petstore and therefore must be evil'"

 

[kathylove]

I have to agree against making blanket statements against all petstores selling this or that. It is true that I don't think selling a puppy or kitten in the proper way would usually be profitable to a pet shop. But that doesn't mean it is ALWAYS true.

Many years ago I produced some litters of Persian cats, mostly for fun. I had a male (still have him, but my last beloved 16 year old female died just recently, as you may remember from a recent thread). For several years I got to enjoy raising kittens in the house, knowing that as purebred Persians they would always find a great home. I did not want people coming out to my house (we are in the middle of nowhere anyway), so I always sold my family raised kittens to a woman I knew who ran a shop. She gave me a fair price and sold them for quite a bit of money in her shop. I always theorized that anyone who would spend that much money on a kitten probably wanted it pretty badly, and it would not be a disposable pet, such as the free puppies and kittens in the classified section of the newspaper.

After several years of kitten raising, the vet said it was time to spay the females so they could rest as they aged, and so it has been a long time since I had kittens around. But I feel that there are probably many occasions that other passionate hobby breeders supply their local shop as I did. In some cases, the owners may themselves be breeders of some breed of cat or dog. These purebred kittens or puppies may well be overpriced, but they will make great pets for those who are willing to pay a premium price to shop in their local pet shop.

Please understand that I am not saying all, or even a majority, of kittens and puppies in shops come from local breeders who really care about their pets. I mostly agree that in most cases, petshops are not the place to shop for a dog or cat. I am just saying each shop is different and should be judged on its own merits.

BTW, what is a perspex cage?

 

[jub_jub_bird]

I can only go on my own experiences of shops over here which sell puppies, and as i said earlier, most of these places are appaling. There is only one shop i have been to which actually displays information regarding microchipping, neutering and vaccinations which must be arranged through the store, however they struggled to sell these animals as the sale price included for these pups (about double the normal price of a pup from another pet store but IMO worth it). Again as i said earlier many of the people who ask if we sell them are usually the ones which wouldnt pass a home check from a shelter.

The other shop i am thinking of also sells unwanted litters of puppies, but my worry is that this encourages people to 'accidently' breed their dogs. Again just my thoughts.

As The Nothing said, they, like many people dislike the sale of Birds in pet stores, and as we sell them i can tell you many people voice their opinions on this too. There are certain codes of ethics that many shop owners follow with regards to how their animals are kept and where their animals are purchased from, and also who their animals are sold to but there are many who could'nt care less. One quick visit to Mytoos.com will show you how unscrupulous (sp) some store owners can be. Thankfully selling unweaned and imported birds is illegal over here and there are a few shops like us which are realy raising the bar with companion parrots, by working with charities and proffesional breeders and EDUCATING owners.

sorry, again this is wandering again! But as i said before i would not support a shop which sold puppies purely for my own personal beleif that there are hundres of dogs destroyed yearly because they cant find them a home.

Perspex cages are like acrylic cubes. The ones i have seen are about 2ft square and stacked about 3 high. Not nice, although the shop near me has them in an open topped pen which the local kids like to throw stuff into (toys, food, wrappers, cigarrete ends) I live in such a lovely area lol!


Kat

 

[Daeraelle]

I live in a small town, so unless I want to drive to jacksonville, or unless I need supplies for the fish tank, I'm stuck buying at petland when I'm desperate. They do sell puppy mill puppies, but I order most of my supplies online, and reorder when I get low, but sometimes I run out before my shipment comes in. Then what am I supposed to do? Make my other animals suffer because I work 60 hours a week and I can't get to another pet store? I'm sure my $3 rat block purchase doesn't even keep the electricity on for two minutes. So yes, I'd buy from them. Maybe I'd never buy a PET from them. But supplies, yes. No, I don't make the bulk of my purchases there because I don't even like walking in there. But when my rats are on their last bowl of food and UPS hasn't shown up I have to do something.

I don't think buying supplies at a pet store encourages them to keep selling dogs. I don't buy my dog or cat supplies there, I have walmart. I manage a business, I keep an inventory. I keep track of what sells and what doesn't and how much my customers are willing to pay for it. Big screens make up the bulk of my sales, so I'm not going to go order 50 couches because I'm low on big screens. These stores know which purchase went to an animal (and exactly what kind of animal) and which purchases went to supplies. The problem is, their animals are so expensive, and they make such a turn around on them, even if they manage to get one or two sales it encourages them.

 

[Hypancistrus]

By purchasing a puppy from a private individual, what assurances are in place that this puppy is taken care of any more or less than a puppy in a pet store?

Regardless of the answer, I would point out that a pet store's wares are on display for you to see whenever you walk in the door. "Problems" would (and are) difficult to "hide". A private individual could "clean up" in the expectation of visitors. A private individual may not allow you to see their breeding facility . . . and wouldn't necessarily blame them if it's their own home. A private individual could very easily hide many of the "problems" that people have with pet store care.

I would walk away from that breeder so fast I'd trip. If a breeder is unwilling to allow me to inspect his or her premises and see the dam (female) there is no way on God's green Earth I am paying her a penny of my money. Responsible, ethical breeders are more than willing to allow you to see their premises- multiple times if need be. That being said, a dog breeders house does not necessarily need to be immaculate, but you can tell when the dogs are being well cared for, and when they're not.

It is definitely a buyer beware world. I checked my breeder out backwards and forewards. I called and talked to the president of the club she belongs to (got glowing reccomendations). I called and talked to the owner of my dogs sire and got glowing reccomendations. And just as much as I was checking HER out, she was checking ME out. It was like adopting a kid, the questionaire's and providing of referrences. I signed a lengthy contract stating, among other things, that if I cannot keep Riley at any time in his life, I must bring him back to her. When a responsible breeder produces a litter, they are producing that litter "for life."

I had another breeder call me who didn't want to know anything about me, only wanted to talk about money ($1800) and when I asked for health certificates she said I could only see those if I gave a non-refundable downpayment. When I asked her for references, she was offended and said she wouldn't allow me to "bother" her former clients. There is no doubt in my mind that that chick was in it for the cash (she raises 2-4 litters a year, both goldens and danes, another warning bell or two) and would probably sell her dogs to a pet store if she couldn't "get rid of them" privately. That is not the way dogs should be bred, at all, again, simply in my opinion.

I don't own cats, so I really don't know much about them or standards for breeding and raising them.

PS. I have seen AKC registered dogs for sale in pet stores for as long as I can remember!

AKC registration means very little. It just means that the sire and dam were both registered. Anyone who can write their name can register a dog. There's much more to buying a well-bred dog than simply checking to make sure they are AKC registered. In fact, for several breeds, some of the best dogs and dog breeders are NOT AKC registered- choosing instead to go with breed clubs. Examples I am thinking of include the Australian Shepherd and Jack/Parson Russell Terrier. Both of these breeds have super-large national breed clubs that also handle registration, and some breeders chose these to register their dogs over the AKC, often for political or philosophical reasons.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I live in a small town, so unless I want to drive to jacksonville, or unless I need supplies for the fish tank, I'm stuck buying at petland when I'm desperate. They do sell puppy mill puppies, but I order most of my supplies online, and reorder when I get low, but sometimes I run out before my shipment comes in. Then what am I supposed to do? Make my other animals suffer because I work 60 hours a week and I can't get to another pet store?

I can definitely understand this position. I am fortunate enough to have dozens of well-run stores to chose from. Therefore the choice to avoid the shoddy ones (like our local PetCo) is an easy one to make.

Sometimes I wish, though, that there was a chain store, or even just a LOCAL store that ONLY sold dry goods. No animal sales at all. But I guess it's hard to bring in business that way....

 

[Drizzt80]

I checked my breeder out backwards and forewards. I called and talked to the president of the club she belongs to (got glowing reccomendations). I called and talked to the owner of my dogs sire and got glowing reccomendations. And just as much as I was checking HER out, she was checking ME out. It was like adopting a kid, the questionaire's and providing of referrences. I signed a lengthy contract stating, among other things, that if I cannot keep Riley at any time in his life, I must bring him back to her.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the average puppy purchaser will not, and is not interested in, going through that extreme of a situation in order to acquire a new family member. And before anyone (might) state that those are the families whose dogs end up at the pound I would vehemently disagree. It doesn't take a contract to show love just as a contract doesn't ensure they are well taken care of. YES the chances are better, but . . . I just think it's painting with too broad of a brush.

AKC registration means very little. It just means that the sire and dam were both registered.

I am fully aware that registration means very little. My statement regarding the AKC was in reference to Bill's statement:

I also bred and showed CFA registered cats for many years. I have held offices and served on committees at very high levels in both organizations. Both of those organizations have strong policies against the sales by pet stores.

Good discussion. Personally, I think the majority of the puppy purchasing populace is very much "in the middle" regarding this topic. You're going to have the extreme that goes through an FBI background check to get their pet, and the extreme that will pick up a pet in a back alley. :shrugs: In between are pet stores and private individuals. 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another. As for animals that end up in shelters, I have seen both extremes as well. I've watched a family put a $1000 dog into a shelter because they no longer "had the time" and I've seen a family that could barely feed their children make sure their dog had a meal every day.

D80

 

[texastailfeathers]

As a general rule, I don't have a problem with pet shops selling puppies as long as they're kept in nice conditions and cared for properly. I'll use my local Petland for example...most of their dogs come from private breeders that raise less than 5 litters a year. I rarely see a dog stay in the store for more than 2 weeks. If no one has bought the dog within two weeks, they lower the price until someone buys it, and many times that means taking a loss.

As for breeders who don't let people see their facility, that doesn't always mean they have something to hide. Take bird breeders, for example. There are quite a few avian diseases that can wipe out an entire aviary in mere days. Therefore, it is a common practice to keep a "closed aviary", meaning that members of the general public are not allowed into the birdkeeping facility. My own aviary is like that.

Aside from the possibility of spreading disease, there is an increasing threat of theft for all animal breeders. Even a very small pack of dogs or a small flock of birds can be worth thousands of dollars. Add food, health supplies, medications, containment, etc, and the exposure increases drastically. A wise breeder does not allow just any stranger to see all of his/her animals and supplies. Don't forget the liability aspect either. If a dog/bird/snake bites someone, you're in big trouble. If that someone is a child...oh boy...as an insurance agent I can tell you that's something you never want to happen, and it's a possibility no matter how well-mannered you think your animals might be.

Even if you can't see a breeder's facility, you can tell a lot about their husbandry and general care by seeing the animals themselves. There are hundreds of diseases that don't show symptoms right away and you may not know if an animal is carrying such a disease, but you can usually tell if the animal has received good care. The animal should look and smell clean and should have bright eyes, a healthy mouth/beak, clean nostrils, energy and alertness...lots of very simple visual cues.

 

[Nanci]

I've bought pugs from private breeders in the past. One breeder, who I got a puppy, and a replacement from, was about 500 miles away. I drove down and was invited to stay overnight. This breeder, who had about 20 dogs, became like family. The other breeder required my (ex) husband and I to come to her home, about 350 miles away, and spent the weekend evaluating us before allowing us to purchase a puppy!

I'm all in favor of adopting pound dogs. But if you are/become seriously interested in competing in obedience trials, you _can't_ unless you have an AKC registered dog. Sure, you can compete at matches, but it isn't the same. I had an AMAZING Treeing Walker- probably the best obedience dog ever, and I couldn't show her. It was heartbreaking. I think but am not sure the same thing applies to getting a tracking degree.

But say you're Joe Public, how do you even know you're supposed to go find a breeder, and not buy from a petstore and support puppy mills? And there are a ton of backyard breeder puppy mills that seem legitimate, but breed the crap out of their dogs- and you'd never know unless you lived next door to them.

Nanci

 

[jub_jub_bird]

Surely the main issue with Pet stores selling puppies is the increased volume of dogs being bough on impulse?

I understand that this can happen with any animal in a pet shop, but surely there is more chance with dogs and cats...

Just an assumption I guess :shrugs:

Kat

 

[dionythicus]

I see both sides of this debate.

Mostly, tho', I have to agree with Tricksterpup. It would seem that snake breeders who wholesale to pet stores are in the same boat as puppy/kitten breeders who sell to pet stores. We've all seen the "OMG, my pet store has a 10 corns in with a ball python and a boa and they have no water or heat!". Well, where did those snakes come from? I don't care what animal a store sells as long as its well treated and the store knows the laws in their area so they aren't selling something that no one can legally own. I've seen that, too, with exotic species. I know of a pet store that takes fantastic care of puppies and kittens (purebred and mixed) and they are in roomy pens with sawdust and a lockable chain link fence around the top to prevent theft. They dote on those puppies and kittens. I know of one store that keeps them in wire cages and never touches them except to sell them. When we rescued a litter of kittens last year, I took them to the good pet store, rather than to the pound. As for the issue of adopting from the pound vs buying from a pet store, let me share with you what's happened here in Pierce County, WA. Here's what it costs to adopt from our humane society...


Elderly Cats (5 years and older, already neutered) $60
Cats previously altered $88
Kittens and Cats (less than 5 years) $98
Littermates (2 cats or kittens) $161
Elderly Dogs (Small, age 11 or older and Large age six and over) $76
Puppies (1 year and younger) * $156
Dogs (all other) $106
Purebred Dogs (Med or large) $250
Small Dogs (25# or less, six years or under) $350

I'm not paying $350 to "rescue" a small dog from the pound. No way in hell. Our humane society has really shot themselves in the foot with that one. Its still cheaper than buying from a pet store, but not by much.

It all comes down to what an individual considers important when getting a new pet. Money, health, background, etc. We all have to live with the choices we make, and waaay too many people still think animals are disposable.

 

[tom e]

AKC registration means very little. It just means that the sire and dam were both registered. .

Right! I once bought a "miniature pinscher" from a breeder who showed me papers and everything... Penny was the puppies name.. Well as she grew, we noticed that she was a little big in body with a small head and big barrel chest. She looked like she was enormously fat but it was all rib.
I started digging around and called the breeder of both her mother and her father.. and it turned out the father was a standard pinscher and the mother was a min pin!
And yet the guy was able to register the pups anyway!! Or at least made some pretty convincing forgeries... In no way did this affect our love of Penny of course though I was pretty mad at the breeder.

 

[tom e]

I don't think buying supplies at a pet store encourages them to keep selling dogs. I don't buy my dog or cat supplies there, I have walmart. I manage a business, I keep an inventory. I keep track of what sells and what doesn't and how much my customers are willing to pay for it. Big screens make up the bulk of my sales, so I'm not going to go order 50 couches because I'm low on big screens. These stores know which purchase went to an animal (and exactly what kind of animal) and which purchases went to supplies. The problem is, their animals are so expensive, and they make such a turn around on them, even if they manage to get one or two sales it encourages them.

Your looking at it the wrong way. If you're trying to vote with the dollar, as someone put it, you don't just not shop there. You don't shop there AND you tell the manager/owner why you won't. And most stores have made that process very easy for you to do with comment lines etc..

 

[Hypancistrus]

Surely the main issue with Pet stores selling puppies is the increased volume of dogs being bough on impulse?

Well... the main issue for me is where the animals come from (puppy mills, for the most part- notice I said MOST )...

But yes, I consider this a serious flaw as well. For everything I went through in GETTING Riley, I was knocked for a loop in actually CARING for him. And I have grown up with dogs, did my research, etc, etc.... I cannot imagine the horror that would be a family who impulse buys the cute puppy at the corner store, only to have it suddenly sprout sharp teeth, and a stream of urine and poo across their living room carpet....

 

[Daeraelle]

Your looking at it the wrong way. If you're trying to vote with the dollar, as someone put it, you don't just not shop there. You don't shop there AND you tell the manager/owner why you won't. And most stores have made that process very easy for you to do with comment lines etc..

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way. Do you really think the manager of that store is going to care that I won't shop there because he sells puppies? How much does a puppy sell for? $1000-$2000. How much do they pay for these puppies from puppy mills? A few hundred bucks. So, after food, they probably make $1000 pure profit at least. Someone that is going to boycott them for selling puppies is not a puppy buyer. They know this. So what is the boycotter buying? Probably pet food. Which doesn't make them much money at all.

I'm not going to buy a dog from them. Ever. I've been shopping there since it opened, because again, it's a mile away whereas the stores in jacksonville are 40 minutes away. I've never even thought about buying one of their dogs. I've also told them as soon as Petco opens I won't be doing business with them anymore because Petco has animal adoptions with dogs and cats from the pound and local rescue organizations. You know what? They don't care. They don't want to keep my business if I'm not buying their over priced animals.

Petland REFUSED the offers of the humane society, cats angels, and stars when they first opened. You want to know why they refused free animals to adopt out in their store for the spaying/neutering fee? Even though it would have brought business to their pet supplies they make crap loads of profit off puppy mill puppies, they don't make their living off cat nip and dog bones. Nothing I say is going to affect them or any other petland across the country. There have been mass protests and boycotts at other petlands all over the place. Did they change their puppy policies, where they get their dogs, or stop selling them? No.