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Don't Tread On Me!!

Pruddock

Gig 'Em Ags!! Whoop!!
Now, before all of you Crotalus Horridus fans go nuts...no Canebrakes this time. But this little guy was sayin the same dang thing to me! He was snappy and unhappy to be moved off his warm trail by this strange guy with the camera. Found him basking on one of the trails and decided to snap a few shots of him and move him out of harms way. Funny little snake. He was snappy, musky, and even kind enough to rattle his tail at me in the leaves after I'd moved him well off the trail. Anyways, enjoy another Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix. They seem to be everywhere here right now. Oh yeah, also another shy little box turtle off the side of the trail.
 

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More pics...Tried to get some ventrals in there too with the hook. I also loved how well he blended into his surrounding...I almost didnt see him when he was sittin out blatently on the trail.
 

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And the last two...enjoy :cheers: (the first pic in this set is my favorite :) )
 

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Nice pics! What's the turtle, a little musk turtle, or something else? Never mind, I see it's a boxie. Three-toed?

Nanci
 
GREAT! The head on that snake is gorgeous.

I've been hoping to get out, but it actually snowed here last weekend and it's been cold ever since. :shrugs:
 
Look at him! I was just reading that the way to quickly ID them is by the row of Hershey's Kisses! He's a perfect example!

Nanci
 
I'm pretty sure its a little three-toed. I've found two others like it and they all have the same shell. The little upturn at the sides of shell are what make me believe its a type of box turtle, and three toed is the only one that makes sense in this area and with that dull shell.
 
They really are beautiful snakes in this area and if keepin a HOT wasn't so dangerous I'd probably already have one by now :grin01:
 
Pruddock said:
They really are beautiful snakes in this area and if keepin a HOT wasn't so dangerous I'd probably already have one by now :grin01:

Oh come on now, don't be a sissy. A nip now and then from a copperhead, no problem. A little necrosis, maybe the loss of a finger or two, anaphylactic reaction, CroFab at $2,700 a vial - kid's stuff.
 
Payton doesn't do well with getting bitten. You should have seen him in 5th grade after being stung by a bumblebee on the lip. One of my favorite memories.
 
Ahh yes the infamous puffy lip...a favorite for most of marshalltown I reckon. Thanks for bringin that up Chase...preciate it bud. :headbang:
 
You can change that for a mere $25!!

I'd sure like to see the rest of that turtle.

I've only seen one Copperhead in the wild, and it was in the woods, in a dry area, in the summer, out on a single track MTB trail. Very small. But they aren't really a big snake when full grown, are they?

I see the best snakes when biking- I think they don't get any warning so are easy to sneak up on.

Nanci
 
Yeah Chase is my younger brother who's still up in all of the snow in iowa :grin01: and I'm down here in CS goin to school and herpin as much as possible. And, just as an observation as a Biomedical Engineer, copperheads have a very weak coagulant as a venom that really only produces localized swelling and pain. Now, obviously this differs from snake to snake and venom load to venom load, but the only way I can really see necrosis occurring is from the edema caused by swelling. The edema in turn makes it harder to cells to get the nutrients they need, but as long as you go to the hospital and are treated more for the symptoms than with the antivenom itself (which has been known to cause more problems than it solves) you should be ok. I do agree that you can have terribly debilitated fingers if you are bitten on the hand though. Usually the venoms that cause necrosis are serious coagulants and myotoxins and cytotoxins. Mostly cytotoxins though.
 
And in regards to the turle Nanci. I couldn't quite coax him out of his shell and all of the turtles I've found have been about the same way except for this guy I posted earlier. Here he is again.
 

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Pruddock said:
And, just as an observation as a Biomedical Engineer, copperheads have a very weak coagulant as a venom that really only produces localized swelling and pain. Now, obviously this differs from snake to snake and venom load to venom load, but the only way I can really see necrosis occurring is from the edema caused by swelling. The edema in turn makes it harder to cells to get the nutrients they need, but as long as you go to the hospital and are treated more for the symptoms than with the antivenom itself (which has been known to cause more problems than it solves) you should be ok. I do agree that you can have terribly debilitated fingers if you are bitten on the hand though. Usually the venoms that cause necrosis are serious coagulants and myotoxins and cytotoxins. Mostly cytotoxins though.

My understanding is that the venom is exactly the opposite - rather than coagulating, it is hemolytic with anticoagulant properties that cause hemorrhaging.

The venom contains proteins, most of which are enzymes. They are, among others:
- Proteolytic enzymes - break down tissue proteins (principal)
- Phospholipases - muscle and nerve toxins
- Hyaluronidases - dissolves intracellular material to speed the spread of toxin
- Collagenases - break down connective tissue

Copperhead venom is highly hemolytic with hemorrhagic properties caused by a fibrinolytic enzyme which break down the coagulant properties of blood. In other words - anticoagulant. Necrosis is apparently directly caused by myotoxins - though secondary effects such as infection, gangrene, and swelling can contibute.

As far as being weak, studies indicate the weakness may only be associated with mice, on which the LD50 is tested. LD50 (LD=Lethal Dose) is the average least amount of toxin needed to kill 50% of test mice. The LD50 for mice of Copperhead venom is 10.9mg/kg In comparison, the LD50 for mice for the Cottonmouth is 2.04 mg/kg. Cottonmouth venom is roughly 5X more toxic to mice than Copperhead venom. However, estimates are that the fatal dose for an average sized human for either is 100mg. In fact, it may actually be higher for Cottonmouth. For humans, there appears to be little choose from between the Copperhead and the Cottonmouth venoms.

The principal difference appears to be the ability to deliver the venom. On average, the venom yield is much smaller in the Copperhead than the Cottonmouth. Its ability to deliver the venom is also diminished.

Copperheads have fangs that range from 1.1mm to 7.2mm, dependent on length. Average venom containment is 40-75mg.

Cottonmouth fangs range from 2.7mm to 11mm. Venom containment is 80-170mg.

Copperheads, in comparison to other Viperidaes, have small fangs, small venom yields, are usually considered more docile and less likely to bite (though that is hardly characteristic of all animals). Accordingly, there are the least dangerous of the venomous snakes in the US. But the does not diminish the absolute potency of the venom with respect to human envenomation.
 
Here's a link to the snakebite photos on Venomousreptiles.org. There's a few Copperhead bite photos, some showing the graphic effects of a solid tag by the snake. Nasty stuff.
 
I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate. Even pro-coagulants cause anticoagulation over time. They create blood clots that are broken down by the body's natural ability to destroy blod clots. These clots can only be broken down to a point though because the body runs out of these enzymes and the blood ultimately becomes unable to coagulate which results in minor hemorrhaging. My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff. And you are right myotoxins destroy tissue, but it is more deep tissue like muscles and skeletal tissue. Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils). They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:
 
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