Don't Tread On Me!!

[SkyChimp]

oops!

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/Snakebite Photos

 

[Pruddock]

As long as you go to the hospital and aren't stupid about trying to just "wait it out", you shouldn't have any extensive damage if you are an adult. My grandparents little Shelty was bitten on the nose and suffered very minimal effects after being taken to the vet. Still...the original post was that all of this makes keeping one of these beautys not worth the risk. Agreed? lol :cheers:

 

[SkyChimp]

I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate.

OK, I thought you were saying the venom has a coagulating effect. Then we agree.

My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff.

But it does cause necrosis - not in all cases, certainly, but necrosis is a serious risk and definite possibility. Take a look at page 7 and 8 of the link I posted. In addition to the compelling photographic evidence, the necrotic properties of the venom is supported by Ernst & Ernst (Snakes of the United States and Canada) and Conant (Snakes of the Agkistrodon Complex: A Monographic Review).

Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils).

Both are nothing more than generic terms for all sorts of cocktails. I guess my point was that necrosis is not merely an incidental side effect of envenomation (though it can be in the manners I listed), it is more likely a direct result of tissue-destroying proteins subcutaneously injected into the body.

They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:

It is, indeed, fascinating. We can diddle over details, but we both agree the stuff that comes out of these snakes ain't honey. Its vile stuff and it it can do a lot of damage to the body.

 

[Pruddock]

Take a look at page 7 and 8 of the link I posted.

The pictures shown on page 7 are from a Cottonmouth and cottonmouth venom contains serious myotoxins, copperhead venom does not. The most potent copperhead venom has been attributed to the trans-pecos and northern copperheads, but they still do not contain myotoxins -- a.k.a no enzymes that directly break down tissue on a large scale. The only pictures I saw from a copperhead that involved some sort of serious necrosis were in children, and I stated that an adult will not see these types of side effects because our immune systems are more highly developed and respond better (mine probably not as my little bro stated earlier...I'd probably pop like a balloon lol ).

Both are nothing more than generic terms for all sorts of cocktails. I guess my point was that necrosis is not merely an incidental side effect of envenomation (though it can be in the manners I listed), it is more likely a direct result of tissue-destroying proteins subcutaneously injected into the body.

I never said that necrosis was an incidental side effect. It can result as a side effect due to edema just like any type of serious swelling. All necrosis is, is dead cells. If cells can't get the nutrients they need, they die. I agree, most necrosis is due directly do to myotoxic and cytotoxic venoms -- (a.k.a tissue destroying enzymes) :cheers:

 

[SkyChimp]

The most potent copperhead venom has been attributed to the trans-pecos and northern copperheads, but they still do not contain myotoxins

Myotoxin is specifically listed as a component in the literature I have. In fact, A. c. laticinutus has an additional myotoxin that causes myelin sheath necrosis.

I never said that necrosis was an incidental side effect. It can result as a side effect due to edema just like any type of serious swelling. All necrosis is, is dead cells. If cells can't get the nutrients they need, they die. I agree, most necrosis is due directly do to myotoxic and cytotoxic venoms

OK, I thought you were saying necrosis was primarily a result of complications of edema. Certainly tissue can die from "strangulation" caused by edema. However, according to the literature I have access to, necrosis is primarily caused by the direct action of toxins. Even where edema is succesfully treated, necrosis can occur.

The issue of serious necrosis with the Copperhead is probably more due tot he fact that deep envenomation is unlikely dut to the small fangs of the snake. As I understand it, only the large pit-vipers (I'm only taking about North America) are capable of a truly intramuscular envenomation.

 

[Nanci]

I would be nearly positive that's a Three-Toed. In Florida you are only allowed to possess two total boxies of the four subspecies, and you can't buy or sell them. I'm at my limit with an Eastern and a Florida.

I am reading this old book that a friend gave me, Venomous Reptiles by the Minters, and it talks about how Copperheads were (are?) used in religious ceremonies and he believed they were put in a sort of trance and didn't bite because, being passed from person to person, they never got to ciol themselves into a defensive posture. They used Timber Rattlers, too, who were reluctant to bite, but the more southern groups would use EDBs which were much less agreeable.

Nanci

 

[Pruddock]

Yeah I know what you're talking about. The name of the church is the Church of Lord Jesus and they base all of their beliefs about snakes off of one verse, Mark 16:18. Jesus said, "They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." :cheers:

 

[Chase13]

I think you misunderstood coagulant because you just said the same thing. Coagulant, when referring to venom, means that the overall effect of the venom is the deterioration of the bloods ability to coagulate. Even pro-coagulants cause anticoagulation over time. They create blood clots that are broken down by the body's natural ability to destroy blod clots. These clots can only be broken down to a point though because the body runs out of these enzymes and the blood ultimately becomes unable to coagulate which results in minor hemorrhaging. My main point in bringing this up was that it doesnt cause necrosis like your original post claimed. I wasn't trying to step on your toes and I wasn't trying to sound superior by mentioning that I'm a BMEN major. The only reason I brought it up was because I have to study the body and I want to do research with venoms when I graduate so I'm forced to start studying this stuff. And you are right myotoxins destroy tissue, but it is more deep tissue like muscles and skeletal tissue. Myotoxins are therefore much more dangerous because they can lead to respiratory failure, heart failure, and basically any internal organs that are in the effecting range of the venom can fail because the muscle and tissue around them are being damaged. Cytotoxins are chalk-full of enzymes that are designed to start digesting tissue immediatly and cause serious damage to all cells in range of the venom. And you are completely correct about why copperheads are the least dangerous of the three sister species in the Americas (copperheads, cottonmouths, and cantils). They have a weak venom and with a very small venom load that is injected at a very shallow depth under the skin. Isn't this stuff just facinating!! :cheers:

 

[Chase13]

Here's a link to the snakebite photos on Venomousreptiles.org. There's a few Copperhead bite photos, some showing the graphic effects of a solid tag by the snake. Nasty stuff.

jk jk jk

 

[SkyChimp]

Pruddock, I have a simple solution. We need a volunteer. You have a brother around here somewhere. I have a sister that isn't much use. You let your copper bite him, and I'll catch a copper and throw it on my sister. If, in a day or two, things rot and fall off them, you buy me a beer. If not, I'll buy you one. Deal? :grin01:

 

[Pruddock]

Hahaha that really just reminded me of the guy who tested the small pox vaccine. Ever heard that one? He used it on his son and then through him into a room full of people who had been diagnosed. Talk about a leap of faith lol. Anyways I found what you're talking about and I agree. The Broad Banded has the myotoxin that attacks the myelin sheath of nerves and the only reason it doesn't inflict as much damage on adults is because it doesn't inject the venom deep enough to do serious damage. I knew about the ACL enzyme, but I never put that together with the latin name lol. My bad. All other species I can't find anything other than hemolytic enzymes. But I did come across this and it looks like copperhead venom could potentially become a cure for breast cancer. Thought it was interesting. Here it is if you wanna take a look.

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/snakvenpainp.html

 

[Chase13]

Pruddock, I have a simple solution. We need a volunteer. You have a brother around here somewhere. I have a sister that isn't much use. You let your copper bite him, and I'll catch a copper and throw it on my sister. If, in a day or two, things rot and fall off them, you buy me a beer. If not, I'll buy you one. Deal? :grin01:

 

[SkyChimp]

Thanks for that. This is a technology that is extremely fascinating.

I've seen some reports on the use of snake toxins to treat tumors. In some cases, the toxin actually makes things worse because it can dissolve the compounds that bind cancerous cells together allowing them to be distributed about the body. In order to destroy the turmor, it has to be directly injected. If that can be done, you could simply cut the tumor out. Inoperable tumors probably can't be injected. But advances are being made daily and since so much effort is being put into it, the idea must have a lot of merit.

I'm interested in the use of toxins to combat blood lipids and arterial plaque. Some research has been done into the plaque issue with some success. I'm not sure about the lipids issue, though.

I do know a lot of research is being done into using hemolytic venom to treat stroke victims. Some tests suggest medication made from venom allow up to twice the amount of time before a victim must be treated with clot-busting drugs before permanent damage is done.

And anyone you know that is on high-blood pressure medication should thank a snake. The first high-blood pressure medications were made using venom.

You would probably appreciate this site:
http://www.venomdoc.com/
I'm a member there, but I don't post a lot. Most of the stuff is over my head. But it's interesting to read.

 

[SkyChimp]

:roflmao: :roflmao:

 

[Nanci]

The first animals immunized against snake venom were pigeons, in 1887. Go pigeons!

Nanci