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F/T to Live?

Sending you a PM, Beth.

Nanci, we don't, but they all gain weight, eat well, and go to the bathroom fine.
 
In my experience, in all species of animals I have kept as pets- dogs, cats, horses, snakes, lizards, human children- while you _can_ sometimes see live worms in droppings, it is far more likely that you will see no visible signs of parasitic worm infestation without a microscopic examination of a fecal sample.
 
You're right Nanci. But there should be symptoms. Unfortunatly I have the feeling this chat is going to decline into some kind of attack on a personal level, so I'm out.
 
Thanks Nanci

That was a good read.

Seem to me and many more here, that f/t feeding is the best route to go!!
 
While it is understandable that most would choose to feed live to an animal who would otherwise starve, it seems senseless to do it except as a last resort.
 
Carinata said:
This forum's got some crazy ideas conjured up. In the wild how many snakes do you think die from one well placed rodent bite? If your snake dies because a live rodent bit it once, you're feeding it food items that are way to big. As I've stated, I feed a lot of live food to Ball Pythons, and I've never seen a snake get bit, much less injured. the rish of live feeding lies not with the fact the rodent may bite your snake, but the fact that the caretaker is blatant idiot and leaves live mice/rats in with their snake for too long resulting in the snake getting nibbled on.
I don't support live feeding for animals that take F/T because of the extremely minimal risk that is posed to the snake. I do support live feeding for picky snakes like Ball Pythons, and rare snakes that don't take rodents in the wild. My female Cat-Eyed Snake eats live, and I couldn't be happier! She's eating and that's what matters at this point, she's feeding. Now I've spent a lot of time thinking about this whole debate and I relized something.......crickets. If you feed live crickets you should not say anything about live feeding because a live cricket can inflict just as much damage as a rodent can. I've seen lizards torn to shreds by live crickets. We never think twice when we feed those. It hasn't been sensationalized, so people don't pay attention to it. I personally don't feed many crickets, because I've found a species of roach that AFTs take with ease, but when I do feed crickets I won't leave them in overnight because they will bite the hell out of your lizards. That's just some food for thought.
Click to expand...

Comparing feeding live rodents to feeding live crickets isn't really a good argument at all.

First of all, virtually NO insectivorous reptile will eat prekilled insects. And I think every anti-live person here is fine with it if done responsibly for snakes that absolutely refuse prekilled, which realistically, is RARE. So there's that. Then there's the fact that invertebrates don't feel pain, vertebrates like mice do. Add that to the fact that crickets will rarely be able to inflict any wounds on a healthy reptile in a decent enclosure. However, a rat can inflict a potentially deadly wound on even the healthiest snake.... because accidents happen. It's actually really common for wild snakes to have scars on them from food that fought back.

And I also wanted to say... don't ever take your own personal experience as the end all be all fact. I have fed live as well to ball pythons. I have personally seen balls get bitten by rats, non life threatening wounds but still, a bite that could get infected. So don't you dare imply that snakes never get injured by food because you've never seen it. Because they do. Even if you are right there, even if the food is well fed, even if the animal is healthy. Nobody, no creature, is perfect and even the best snakes can be killed.

To the OP, I think someone already said it but generally corns will start striking and constricting when they are on fuzzies/larger. Some never constrict f/t because they know they don't have to, others go all out. I have no doubt that your snake would, eventually and out of instinct and not personal pleasure, strike and constrict a mouse. Killing it slowly, painfully, and avoidably. It's safety will be at risk, no one can deny that. The mouse will be in an unimaginable amount of pain and fear, also something no one can deny. A situation that can easily be avoided with compassion from you, the owner. Compassion for your snake, compassion for the mouse.
 
Here's my stance;
Live feeding should only be used when an animal will not eat F/T either at all or without regularity. I know they can cause injuries, but the risks are minimal if supervised. As far as crickets, don't tell me that they are perfectly safe, because I've seen crickets do some damage when left with lizards too long. The only reason I argue for live feeding, is so that people don't think that only keepers that don't care about the animals feed live, as that is not the case.
 
Carinata said:
the rish of live feeding lies not with the fact the rodent may bite your snake, but the fact that the caretaker is blatant idiot and leaves live mice/rats in with their snake for too long resulting in the snake getting nibbled on.
Click to expand...

David, I was going to try to not reply to this thread, but this quote really got me... You are calling people idiots and stating that the reason that their snake got bit was because the mouse was left with the snake for too long.

There are many people out there that have lost snakes, not because they left the mouse with their snake for a long time, but because the mouse turned and brained the snake while being constricted.

Stating that "the risk is because they are idiots and leave a live mouse in the pen" is in itself an idiotic and inexperienced answer.

You may not have ever had a snake get bitten by a mouse, but I have. It only took a split second and I am extremely lucky that it did not brain her. And, this was with a snake that had been fed LIVE her whole life! So, how about you do a little more research and try to learn this time, because I personally am tired of hearing about your "Thousands of snakes fed" experience... The excuse for your ignorance is old, learn some at the place that you work, don't just use it as a "I am so cool because this is my job" thing.

Look at me, I have 20 + years with RES turtles, but in no way do I claim that my knowledge is better than everyone else's. Look at the ones here who have decades of experience on you when it comes to reptiles. None of them rub it in your face to try and get their point across. In fact, many of them are extremely respectful, no matter how obnoxious you reply to them.

In fact, many of your responses to Nanci have been rather obnoxious as well. She posted scientific facts, and you came back at her with a "Well where I work" type answer. You are not the know all end all on these types of discussions.
 
Is this not a forum where I can speak my experiences? Aaron, I am going off of personal experience. I really appriciated Nanci's posts, and actually enjoyed the nice debate. I am not the be all and end all and I have never claimed to be.
 
You're right, this is a forum in which you can speak about your experiences. But do not use them in the context that your way is best. You do it all the time, and everyone who has been here long enough to know you, knows it.
 
Well for the record that's not at all what I mean. I am in no way saying I'm some sort of expert. We learn something new everyday. It may seem like that but it's certainly not the case.
 
Carinata said:
Is this not a forum where I can speak my experiences? Aaron, I am going off of personal experience. I really appriciated Nanci's posts, and actually enjoyed the nice debate. I am not the be all and end all and I have never claimed to be.
Click to expand...

Well I think people have issue with your using your own personal experience as evidence for things all the time. Personal experience is fine, but it in no way completely proves or disproves anything. Example: "My grandmother smoked practically her whole life and never got cancer... cigarettes don't cause cancer in my experience." Is sooooort of like what you're saying here. Or at least implying. In your defense your are pretty much agreeing with everyone that live should be used as a last resort.
 
Duh!!!! I don't feed anything live unless it won't usually take frozen. I don't enjoy feeding live, it's a pain in the ass. I also don't call my personal experience law, it's just personal experience.
 
pheonix said:
I have a young corn snake that is presently on fuzzies. I breed my own mice but i don't have enough colonies, nor do i want more, to provide the perfect LIVE size every 5 days...So what i would like to do is feed her f/t until she get's big enough for adult mice. Right now she doesn't constrict her meals, and i have tried tugging on the mouse to make it seem like it's alive with little luck. I'm wondering if when she is ready for full grown mice, if she will be able to constrict and kill them properly? (i realize i could just keep her on f/t, but i like to watch them eat naturally thanks guys!
Click to expand...

Try tongs or your hand and make the thawed rodent do a zombie dance you should see or feel the snake coil. My .02 don't worry about it and feed f/t.

Nanci said:
In my experience, in all species of animals I have kept as pets- dogs, cats, horses, snakes, lizards, human children- while you _can_ sometimes see live worms in droppings, it is far more likely that you will see no visible signs of parasitic worm infestation without a microscopic examination of a fecal sample.
Click to expand...

Ditto

VickyChaiTea said:
Comparing feeding live rodents to feeding live crickets isn't really a good argument at all.

First of all, virtually NO insectivorous reptile will eat prekilled insects. And I think every anti-live person here is fine with it if done responsibly for snakes that absolutely refuse prekilled, which realistically, is RARE. So there's that. Then there's the fact that invertebrates don't feel pain, vertebrates like mice do. Add that to the fact that crickets will rarely be able to inflict any wounds on a healthy reptile in a decent enclosure. However, a rat can inflict a potentially deadly wound on even the healthiest snake.... because accidents happen. It's actually really common for wild snakes to have scars on them from food that fought back.

And I also wanted to say... don't ever take your own personal experience as the end all be all fact. I have fed live as well to ball pythons. I have personally seen balls get bitten by rats, non life threatening wounds but still, a bite that could get infected. So don't you dare imply that snakes never get injured by food because you've never seen it. Because they do. Even if you are right there, even if the food is well fed, even if the animal is healthy. Nobody, no creature, is perfect and even the best snakes can be killed.

To the OP, I think someone already said it but generally corns will start striking and constricting when they are on fuzzies/larger. Some never constrict f/t because they know they don't have to, others go all out. I have no doubt that your snake would, eventually and out of instinct and not personal pleasure, strike and constrict a mouse. Killing it slowly, painfully, and avoidably. It's safety will be at risk, no one can deny that. The mouse will be in an unimaginable amount of pain and fear, also something no one can deny. A situation that can easily be avoided with compassion from you, the owner. Compassion for your snake, compassion for the mouse.
Click to expand...

and Ditto

Outcast said:
David, I was going to try to not reply to this thread, but this quote really got me... You are calling people idiots and stating that the reason that their snake got bit was because the mouse was left with the snake for too long.

There are many people out there that have lost snakes, not because they left the mouse with their snake for a long time, but because the mouse turned and brained the snake while being constricted.

Stating that "the risk is because they are idiots and leave a live mouse in the pen" is in itself an idiotic and inexperienced answer.

You may not have ever had a snake get bitten by a mouse, but I have. It only took a split second and I am extremely lucky that it did not brain her. And, this was with a snake that had been fed LIVE her whole life! So, how about you do a little more research and try to learn this time, because I personally am tired of hearing about your "Thousands of snakes fed" experience... The excuse for your ignorance is old, learn some at the place that you work, don't just use it as a "I am so cool because this is my job" thing.

Look at me, I have 20 + years with RES turtles, but in no way do I claim that my knowledge is better than everyone else's. Look at the ones here who have decades of experience on you when it comes to reptiles. None of them rub it in your face to try and get their point across. In fact, many of them are extremely respectful, no matter how obnoxious you reply to them.

In fact, many of your responses to Nanci have been rather obnoxious as well. She posted scientific facts, and you came back at her with a "Well where I work" type answer. You are not the know all end all on these types of discussions.
Click to expand...

Oh my gawd Ditto

Carinata said:
Is this not a forum where I can speak my experiences? Aaron, I am going off of personal experience. I really appriciated Nanci's posts, and actually enjoyed the nice debate. I am not the be all and end all and I have never claimed to be.
Click to expand...

In my experience however limited one can get a real thrill watching rodents giving birth and eating their young, what a thrill. There are arguments to be made for mothers eating their young, afterall.:eek:
 
A disclaimer on my previous post, I don't like feeding live or think it is cool, nor do I enjoy wathching rodents eat their young. One should not give advice based on their own experience and call it law or the rule or come across as if they know of what they speak.
 
So you shouldn't give advice with confidence? For example, I feed B. lateralis roaches to my geckos. I find they grow quicker than with crickets and they are one of the few insect items AFTs will actually eat. Most times B. dubia roaches are not active enough to entice them, and mealies and supers are not always easy to get them started on. I am confident in the fact that I tell people Lats are good feeder bugs. Should I not tell people that?

As I stated, I post my experience because I feel like you can read 100 books, but there's nothing like good old hands on experience. I am not trying to start drama, get into fights or anything else, I simply am relaying my experiences. Now as I've said 100 times before, I only like to feed live to snakes that won't take frozen.
 
beautifullywild77 said:
ummm wasn't this post about corn snakes and feeding f/t or live mice? I mean i could be wrong.. just saying
Click to expand...

Actually I believe the original post was asking if a Cornsnake that had fed on F/T it's entire life, would still have the muscle mass to kill a live rodent.
 
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