Hard lump in the belly?

[Kim_Hansson]

Hi there guys. I have two snakes (adult females) that I got some big troubles with.

During the last fall I felt that they both had two hard lumps on their bellies that didn't came out with their other feces. They both ate very well though and seemed fine in every other aspect. However their state got worse, soon they started to lose weight and looking skinny, although they were fed properly. Their feces also started smelling really bad.

I first suspected constipation and I have tried baths and massage. The lumps then got softer but the day after it was hard again.

I have looked for maggots or other types of worms in their feces, nothing.
I also tried some worm-medicine for cats and dogs.

I have also tried small quantity probiotic yoghurt.

Any ideas for diagnosis and treatment?

 

[torsten]

Try taking it to a reptile vet.

 

[Nanci]

I'd suspect crypto...

 

[Lennycorn]

I'd suspect crypto...

Really??? I hope not.
I was thinking the line of a ..slug.

 

[Nanci]

Both snakes, foul smelling feces, losing weight??? The only thing they aren't doing is regurgitating.

 

[Pasodama]

With the belly lumps, loss of weight, and foul feces ... I would tend to agree, with Nanci, and suspect Crypto. Not 100% guaranteed, that this is what it is (without testing), but it is one of the things at the top of the, short, suspect list.
Like Nanci said, the only thing missing (or not mentioned) are any regurges ... though, if missing, does not mean that Crypto would not be suspect.

The snakes should be taken to a vet.

Also, testing for Crypto would be a very good idea in order to diagnose it, or rule it out. Only thing is that this requires at least three testings being done at three different times (less if diagnosed positive before the three testings are done).
It would require at least three tests, with negative results, in order to be relatively safe to assume that a snake is Crypto free.

 

[Nanci]

I think I would want to get a stomach lavage to test for it. Shedding it in the stool is very random.

 

[Kim_Hansson]

Hi there again! Thanks for all the replies! Now, I will start lookin' around for a vet that's familiar with herps. Not so easy in my small country.
However, lets say they have crypto. I just googled it and I couldn't find any advice on treatments.
What would you recommend? At the moment I'm just thinking I should spray some water down their throat. Just to give them some fluids....

Appreciate all answers!

Kim H
Sweden

 

[Snakexperience]

Did they breed last year?

Arjan

 

[bitsy]

There's no home cure for crypto - it's something that all reptile keepers dread appearing in their collections. A vet is essential and sadly, you shouldn't expect a happy outcome if the crypto testing comes back positive.

For now, the safest thing is to assume crypto until proven otherwise. Keep the affected animals in absolute quarantine. If you have any other reptiles in the house, assume that they too have been infected and keep them quarantined as well. Don't allow any new reptiles into the house and don't let any of yours go to new homes. Crypto spreads very easily.

Unless you supect dehydration, there won't be any benefit to spraying water down their throats.

 

[danielle]

Crypto can not be cured and if this is the case the snake should be put to sleep immediately. If the snake was roomed near other reptiles infection is likely. Crypto is every reptile lovers wort nightmare and can take down an entire collection. However, other parasidic infections share the same symptoms so find a vet and definitely quarantine not handling the snake at all.

 

[Kim_Hansson]

Hi there again. Well that sucks.... big time. I checked the snakes again this evening. On of the females was bred last year. The other is a virgin girl.
The snakes has been held in my big snakeroom and was removed during last fall when the trouble start and I decided that they wouldn't be brumated. However as I said I have kept them in my big snakeroom until last fall.
I just recently raised the temp in my snakeroom and I offered the brumated snakes food for the second time last night. Two of my males refused to feed both of the times. They doesn't have any lumps or "triangular" shaped bodies. So I don't have any reasons to suspect any other infected animals in the big snakeroom. I have now got my hands on the number to a good herp-vet and I will call him first thing tomorrow.

I surely hope there's no more infected snakes in my big snakeroom (30+ animals). I will check how much the tests cost. Maybe it's worth investing in testing all of them.

But, does anyone know how they get crypto from the start? Can it be the water? In the food items?

If I should discover my whole collection infected I'll burn the snakeroom to the ground and move to freaking Siberia to study mooses!

 

[danielle]

Honestly one positive means all positive almost everytime. I have feared crypto my whole reptile keeping life one reason i don't buy from shows unless the breeder and I arrange something before hand and I am just picking up early in the day, lol. Crypto is insanely contagious and can be picked up almost anywhere, but if this lump has been going on for almost a year I doubt it crypto which kills fast almost before you know what is going on. Usually also you will find very liquidy stools with some blood tinges often with a very foul smell and not a normal once a week poo.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Honestly one positive means all positive almost everytime.

Not always. And some snakes appear to be able to live with crypto, spreading it to others... while others do what you said, healthy to dead in about a month.

Will agree that crypto is often deadly and a much feared disease in reptiles. I lost my 2nd baby corn to crypto.

I hope your story turns out to be better.

 

[Pasodama]

Am hoping that, by some chance, it turns out to be something else.

However, if it is, indeed, Crypto ... there is no cure (as has been mentioned by someone else).

Perhaps, one day, there will be a cure or a successful treatment plan (where, if not total elimination, Crypto can, at least, be controlled). There are some researchers working on it.

The vet can advise, on a course of treatment (if Crypto is diagnosed and you wish to treat), but the snake usually, & eventually, dies regardless.
IOW There really isn't a good treatment plan at this time. So, actually, the best thing is to euthanize (especially if there are other snakes in the home/facility).

BTW If a stomach lavage is performed (vs. another procedure for testing), the snake should be fed a few days prior to the lavage (not a week, or more, prior). This makes diagnosis easier &/or gives a better chance of diagnosis.

The belief that Crypto always kills rapidly is a fallacy ... IOW it is just not that "cut & dry".
First, a snake can carry Crypto without ever becoming symptomatic, nor succumbing to it, but will shed oocysts, off & on, during its life (a carrier that, while never affected itself, will spread Crytpo).
Second, although some snakes can become symptomatic much sooner, other snakes can carry Crypto, for years, before becoming symptomatic (meanwhile, shedding oocysts, off & on, that can spread Crypto to other snakes).
Third, those that do become symptomatic may have symptoms that are easily missed, for some time, before more noticeable symptoms arise (&/or before the snake goes into a steady decline).
Fourth, some will die quickly, or (once symptomatic beyond just a belly lump/swelling) will deteriorate, very rapidly, before dying ...while others will have a little longer period, of deterioration, before dying.

As for the the belly lump/swelling ... it can be present somewhat shortly before, or it can be present for a long while before, the snake becomes more symptomatic (&/or begins to deteriorate).
To make matters a little more tricky, some snakes, with Crypto, don't develop the belly lump/swelling (thus, can mimic another illness &/or a different protozoa induced illness).

Separating the "suspect" snakes from any other snakes (preferably in a different room), until such time as they can be diagnosed (or Crypto can be ruled out), is good advice and it is great that you have done so.
To go a little further ... make sure that they are the last snakes to be fed, or to have water changed, or to have their vivs cleaned, etc.
Wearing disposable gloves, while attending to these snakes (or handling them), would be beneficial (wash hands, afterwards, although gloves were worn) and, if disposable gloves are not used, ... certainly wash hands (including under nails), very well, afterwards (be sure to turn the faucet on, with a clean paper towel or other disposable item, prior to washing hands).

 

[Pasodama]

Maybe it's worth investing in testing all of them.

That could be a rather costly endeavor (if not a forbidding one). Especially with a large collection where each snake must be tested three different times, with a negative result each time, in order to be reasonably sure that each tested snake does not have/carry Crypto.
'Course, I am not sure how much testing costs where you are at.

But, does anyone know how they get crypto from the start? Can it be the water? In the food items?

Feces is a good culprit but ... it can be anywhere (water, ground, etc., etc.).

 

[Kim_Hansson]

Again, thanks for all of your informative answers! Ijust got of the phone with the vet and he will send some testing-gear to me. I'm hoping for a quick delivery.

Thanks again! I'll keep you updated...

 

[Pasodama]

Just wanted to make a clarification on something else that I did not comment on earlier.
That would be a statement made, by another poster, that stools will have a bloody tinge.

Stools, from Crypto affected snakes, can be anywhere from being liquidy, to being mucous-like, to containing mucous substance ... and there can, also, be near normal appearing stools, once in awhile, too. Also, another possible occurrence, is that a stool can, sometimes, contain what appears to be partially digested food as well.
However, while it is true that a Crypto affected snake will/can have abnormal stools, blood (or a bloody tinge) is not always present. So, if no blood (or bloody tinge) is present, one should not assume, based on that alone, that it is not Crypto.

As an added note (which has been mentioned): While these type of stools are symptomatic, of Crypto, it is, also, symptomatic of other conditions/protozoa. IOW While Crypto may be a suspect to be considered, these type of stools, alone, does not, automatically, mean that Crypto is the culprit.

The other thing, that I wanted to comment on, is that ... if a snake is tested, and the test turns up positive (on the first or second testing - before all three testings are done), then, yes, Crypto is present and no further testing need be done after receiving a positive result.
However, while Crypto is fairly contagious (or very contagious if good husbandry practices/hygiene is not practiced), it does not, automatically, mean that ~all~ snakes, in one's collection, has Crypto (if one or two snakes is found to have it).
With that said, though, some folks do not wish to take the chance (considering that Crypto is Contagious) ... So, if one snake proves positive (for Crypto), will put down their entire collection (not only to not take a chance but ... also because testing all snakes, to see which ones may have Crypto or not, can be quite costly).

 

[Pasodama]

Ijust got of the phone with the vet and he will send some testing-gear to me. I'm hoping for a quick delivery.
Thanks again! I'll keep you updated...

What kind of testing gear is this? Is it for a cloacal/stool sample, or a different sample (such as a regurge), that you, then, send back to the vet for testing?

Just remember that, if this test turns up negative, you still need to test at least two more times (not immediately "back to back" and not using the same sample, for each test, of course).

I am praying for a good outcome, for you, and really hope to hear some good news.

 

[Lennycorn]

Again, thanks for all of your informative answers! Ijust got of the phone with the vet and he will send some testing-gear to me. I'm hoping for a quick delivery.

Thanks again! I'll keep you updated...

Please keep us updated on this.