How can we agree?

[carl3]

The idea of some sort of system for measuring corn snake quality can be objective if completed using a well thought out and reasonable process. I think it is much easier to write off this issue by simply stating that its too ‘subjective’ rather than approach it with a positive outlook. It could prove very valuable in the future. The numbers of corn snakes that will be produced in years to come will only increase exponentially. It is only a matter of time before someone puts a system in writing, and once that happens people may find it useful to follow.

I think its crucial to examine why we would want to reject the idea of a measurable system for identifying characteristics (not necessarily quality) among corns. Darin, you are absolutely correct…many people have different ideas about what quality is. However, this does not take away from the fact that corns have characteristics by which we identify or reference them. These characteristics could be measured using quantitative analysis not qualitative analysis.

Some reasons for rejecting the idea could be fear-related. For instance, some may realize that their breeding stock that they have worked hard to maintain and build up over years is only an average quality. But once again, its not quality that we should look to measure. Also, there are competition issues. At herp shows, when given a choice between two breeders of similar reputation and similar stature, a potential buyer would be quick to purchase from the dealer with which they could identify a greater quantity of characteristics that they desire.

I think it IS important to realize that quality or beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. So what makes any given corn snake better than the next? It’s you! You and your beliefs about what quality is or isn’t. That is why any created system of measurement can not simply be viewed as labeling corns as either good or bad quality. It must not refer to quality in any way. It is essential that it only deals in facts and data related to quantity.

Either way, any type of system is probably a long way off, especially since, as Darin pointed out, people can not even agree on names for morphs. But a system would eventually prove useful in identifying what you want in a corn snake.

:uzi:
:fullauto: :madeuce:
:twoguns: :rofl:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Trying to make a comlpete catalog of morphs in all their variety is like trying to make a catalog human faces. There's a saturation point, and beyond that it's too much information and becomes garbage. Instead, it would be more useful and more realistic to give an idea of what can vary, how much it generally varies, and then show general examples and let people extrapolate those variables from the base.

The problem with saying "a (insert genetic combo) should ideally look like this" is that corns don't hatch with their adult colors. With dogs, this is easier because they have been inbred and inbred and inbred and inbred to the point that the genetics are about as fixed as they can get. (That and so that they've now got over 100 known genetic defects which will never ever be bred out because nobody wants to lose money in the course of doing so.)

If you buy from a reputable dealer, some of them have an explicit guarantee, and many others will allow you to return something in exchange for the same morph if you're unsatisfied. South Mountain has this warranty:

After seven months, the colors and markings of your reptile may have changed due to maturing. At any time after seven months, if you are dissatisfied for any reason, you may return it for a replacement.

That's about the closest it is possible to get to "I want to be sure a blizzard I buy doesn't develop any yellow."

The other problem with the dog analogy is that in order to be fair, you'd have to go back and think of what it would be like if they had established the AKC when wild wolves were first beginning to be domesticated. If that had happened, and a standard was produced then, there'd be only a handful of dog breeds because everyone would have tried to stick to only that many "gold standards."

We've barely scratched the surface on the potential cons can reach. Heck, we're still all fixated on colors and patterns, and it doesn't seem like anyone is selecting for body shape, head shape, scale size, etc. These things have to be as variable as anything else, and I've noticed that one line in my collection has "longer" heads than the rest. I think this is interesting, and especially once I start to hatch entire clutches of the same color/pattern morph, this is one of the considerations I'll be making when selecting offspring. Will I have the "collie" of corns 30 years from now, with elongated heads? I dunno. But IMO it would kinda suck to have everyone ignore all the potential out there because they're all trying to make their cornsnakes look as similar to each other as possible.

BTW I do agree about quantifying certain aspects of color and pattern. I do that myself, internally, when looking at any cornsnake. It helps to become more familiar with them that way, since it keeps you looking at the subtle stuff and smaller details. But until we all have calipers and densitometers, or photospectrometers, or spectrophotometers, or whatever, we won't be able to do that type of thing. I'm just trying to imagine Rich Z doing that with each of 5,000 hatchlings.

(Where's that smiley with the eyes popping out, accompanied by the "arrroooga!" horn? hehe)

 

[Kat]

but I want an animal that lives up to the name.

You know... Even if I were to go out and find the ugliest normals I can get my hands on, and try to make an Ugly Phase corn, SOMEONE would think it was the most beautiful corn on the planet.

Oreo, if you want a book of standards, why don't you write one up? See if you can get people to follow it too. Maybe you'll find some people willing to breed to your standards if you actually have them written down.

But I guarantee you, that even if you can get your standards accepted by the majority of the cornsnake breeders, there will always be people who do their own thing. And there's nothing you, or anyone else, can do about that.

-Kat

 

[kathylove]

I think that most (or all) serious breeders do have an "ideal" or standard for each type of corn they breed. And in most cases, it is probably pretty similar to the ideal that MOST customers want in that type of corn. Although I may emphasize one trait of my okeetees or bloodreds, etc, more than another trait, and the next breeder may choose to work harder on a different trait, in many cases our mental picture of an ideal okeetee or blood may be very similar. Since we don't have breed standards such as the AKC, we describe our individual ideals on our websites and our customers decide which ideal they prefer. I (and probably most serious breeders) grade our own babies according to our iown ideal of that morph, and then charge accordingly, as do many purebreed dog and cat breeders. If customers disagree, they vote with their walllets.

Most of the time I agree with my customers, but sometimes I am surprised by their choices. For instance, I really expected that once butters were reasonably priced, people who liked really yellow snakes would opt for butters. And customers who bought creamsicles would start to ask for more orange animals, even though previously the yellow ones have always sold the best. After all, the orange color is now not represented as well by a separate morph as the yellow color is by butters. But no, people still want yellow creams. Like most business owners, I aim to please and will continue to produce yellow ones as long as people like them. If I really disliked the yellow ones, and the orange ones didn't sell, then I probably would just get out of breeding creamsicles altogether, rather than produce something that didn't sell. Or I could just keep a couple as pets. That is how the free market system is supposed to work.

On another, but related, note, I remember many years ago buying my Persian cats. The "peke-faced" (flat faced) Persian was all the rage in competition and that was what the show breeders produced. But people who were buying them for pets did NOT usuallly prefer the extreme look - they liked the "doll-faced" (rounder) version. So some breeders went back to producing those, even though they were not the ones winning the awards! (I have never shown cats, so don't know the details, but that was the way the scene appeared to me as a pet owner 10 years ago) So the free market system often rides to the rescue to give customers whatever they want, whenever possible. All that breeders have to do is honestly represent their bloodlines so that customers can decide for themselves.

 

[Shaky]

Way too complicated

While I agree with what everyone is saying, I think the point is being missed.
Someone way back when in the dog community just decided one day that certain standards were the ones he/she would judge by .
It doesn't matter who agrees, its who starts the thing.
Basically, like folks say, general standards are unwritten but already agreed upon. I believe that its just a matter of writing it all down and seeing if anyone joins up.
If the person doing the writing does a good job, the idea may take off.
If it takes off, then everyone's discussions won't mean much anymore. Breeders will align themselves with the written standards.
That said, don't look at me to start. What an immense pain. However, I'd join the group.

-Jack

 

[Darin Chappell]

Let's try to use a visual example here.

One of the most common recessive traits out there is anerythrism A. Could everyone please post their very best example of that trait from their collections? Now, just one post per customer, please, and ONLY what you think is the very best anery A example possible, without any little "extras" being expressed (no anery bloodreds need apply)!

I am willing to bet, without even the first picture showing up, that we will have a HUGELY diverse group of animals pictured here (assuming people actually respond to my request ), and that the ONLY verifiable commonality between them is that they are homozygous for anerythrism A!

I'm at work, so I'll have to post a bit later. Even so, please feel free to start posting those "perfect" anery A examples!

 

[carl3]

Kathy brings an interesting thought to mind....even if we did adopt some sort of standards or scale, it wouldn't necessarily be set in stone. As new morphs or variations of existing morphs appear, the scale could change. In fact it could be the main concept being such a scale being adopted...having it re-examined or re-evaluated once per year or sooner.

Plus, even if the market or breeders tend to breed what they believe customers want or prefer, maybe they could benefit from knowing what the majority prefer in snakes, assuming any such scale was created with input from and voted on 'by the people' or by the majority. lol....sounds constitutional...lol. Jake said it best. There are universal characteristics that MOST everyone commonly looks for in a corn. It is unwritten but already agreed upon. Its a matter of creating one by gaining input from the herp community and then seeing it possibly adopted or tried out.

Darin's request is an interesting idea, although I don't currently own an anery. I feel its still missing my point though... There will always be variation in corns. I don't think a scale should be used to create a certain type of corn or should it be used to identify the "perfect" anery or whichever morph you choose. I think it would just be useful to identify where on a scale such variation falls. Maybe a more vague scale would be appropriate, identifying a range of certain characteristics within a morph.

If you buy a morph off the internet, which is becoming more and more popular, it may narrown down what corn a looks like without relying on an edited/altered or poor pic....which may lead to disappointment. I'm not saying its common, but it may work to a buyers advantage. There are numerous advantages, and some disadvantages. While there are quality breeders out there with more than a 7 day live gaurantee; its still only a small percentage when compared to the amount of people selling crap (whether physical or genetic) with no gaurantee.

 

[Kat]

Part of the problem is that everyone's definition of crap is different. Yeah, healthy or not healthy is pretty definitive... but ugly or not ugly? Well... just check out the Photo Gallery thread on ugly cornsnakes. If we make it an industry standard that breeders are considered 'bad' for selling 'ugly' corns, then it creates a whole new mess. Can you imagine all the BOI postings? :blowhead:

XXX - Bad Guy -- Sells ugly snakes!

I bought my snake from XXX several months ago. He's since shed a couple times and his color is starting to come in. And, I can't believe it... XXX sold me an UGLY corn. What kind of person does that sort of thing? And now he won't let me return it. XXX is a bad guy, stay away from him at all costs. Don't let this happen to you!


Silly, imo. :laugh:

-Kat

 

[carl3]

Kat,
That already happens! People DO post about the quality of their snakes. I don't think it be any different nor would it take on a negative twist, but instead be more positive.

And there are people out there that sell UGLY corns....maybe they would be inclined to vary their breeding stock to work on improvement. Heck with all the unknown genetic mixes and normals het for everything, it might benefit the overall gene pool for captive bred corns.

If I were company XXX and I sold a corn that someone bought and came to me 6 months later saying that it shed several times and turned ugly...well I'd take care of customer service first THEN work on identifying if it was an isolated incident or if there were others with beauties turning into beasts.
-jason

 

[Alicia]

This whole idea is assuming that ALL corn snake breeders and sellers will be honest and adhere to these standards. That ALL the people setting these standards will be fair and objective.
In a perfect world.......:nope: no such thing.

I think the breeders that are serious and honest will ultimely set the standards and they don't need to be tied up with paperwork and red tape. There should always be room for "beauty in the eye of the beholder". No one should be run out of business because of someones opinion of the beauty of an animal. No one should be forced to change or buy certain breeding stock. That is the direction I see this headed.

I can easily see my relaxing and fun hobby turning into an Excedrin moment :headbang:

 

[carl3]

Alicia, you bring yet another good point...I don't see it ever being adopted or being seriously used...but its fun to talk about. It would be too easy for someone to slap a 'false' number or letter on a snake at their table in a herp show indicating its something its not. Things could very well become more complicated....but aren't they getting more complicated anyway, with multiple versions of hypos, anerys and whatever else.

As for being far and objective...well, nothing is entirely fair or objective...but systems set forth by the majority are at least more democratic, and more accepted....If we were in a perfect world, GW Bush would not be my president..lol.

"No one should be run out of business because of someones opinion of the beauty of an animal." -I don't think it would ever get that extreme.

"No one should be forced to change or buy certain breeding stock. That is the direction I see this headed." -I believe breeders already do this...how often do you hear about Rich, Don, or Kathy no longer putting emphasis on certain morphs b/c sales simply aren't there...no market for them. Therefore, customers dictate and determine the needs through supply and demand forcing a breeder to change when necessary.

I am not necessarily in favor of a grading system, but its fun to play devils advocate!

I'll buy you a drink, Alicia, If you hit your head too hard!
:cheers:

 

[Alicia]

LOL...........Just a diet Pepsi and a bottle of Excedrin please

I agree, this topic is food for thought and a lively debate. It wouldn't be very fun if we were all on the same side.

 

[CAV]

If we were in a perfect world, GW Bush would not be my president.

Only if that perfect world wasn't govern by a little piece of paper known as the United States Constitution.

 

[carl3]

May be if a system is ever created it could be called, "The Corn Snake Constitution"...lol

i'm sure the ammendments would be out of this world!

 

[oreo]

Who is missing the point

Ok Ok some of you are missing the point. I am simply stating that it would be nice to have a color judging guide to ACCURATLY describe a particular morph. Kathy does delve into this with her book in production now. I am sure all of you own it since your all experts here. I believe that there is a reference to the okeetee corn. There are a couple of pics that plainly show what a "muddy" one can look like and what her opinion of one should look like. The main reson behind this post was to raise the question as to find out if the top breeders could put a guide together on the subject and would you buy it? I would, I think I have been duped once or twice because I never saw a such and such and its variations in person. There isn't really many color photos that you know have not been "touched up" floating around. I actually haven't seen a great Lavender in person or maybe I have but can't tell because I have higher expectations that what it deserves. I asked Rich about purchasing some because I believe he probably has the best example of it. I could be wrong, MAYBE one of you has one better. But until I have a solid reference to what I should expect why should I take the chance? I did not intend for everyone to stricly follow a guide, but if you guys showed up at a show I was purchasing from I would like to see the lineage it came from. I do it and even if it isn't important to most people there is a few that really appreciate it.

 

[Shaky]

well,...

There is no better guide, IMO, than Serpenco's and South Mountain's photo galleries. They are great references as to what good specimens should look like.
They show the best examples of their lines, I'd think.
As far as showing pics of juveniles, you couldn't tell anyway.

 

[oreo]

Yet again I will clarify

Ok you can't take the internet to a show. I am not talking about pics of juveniles I am talking about pics of adults. Mainly to let people see what they should expect not demand. I really think people should have pics of the parents in question available to potential customers. Then that customer could look in the imaginary guide and debate wether they want what those parents represent. Most people are logical enough to figure out that there is no gauranty in life but a little extra confidence could be put forth. And if you dont think that those parent represent what you want dont buy the offspring. If you do like them buy them. Afterall something is only worth what someone will pay for it. I gladly pay for quality and regularly pass up what I dont like. I am just calling it like I see it. I wouldn't ever take someones word on a snake unless they are proven credible and I hate to say it, I am included.... Most of us are not the top scale name in this venue. Hats off to Rich, Kathy and Don and whoever else is under my radar with top shelf livestock.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Oreo,

I mean absolutely no disrespect here, but might I suggest that after you have been here on this forum a little while longer, you will see that there are a great number of people here from you can always buy with absolute confidence in regard to price, quality, and customer service. I fear that your relative newness to this forum may be a hinderance to your assessments of our little community.

I will simply state one last time, that I am not keen on the idea of the "top breeders" (regardless of who is chosen, or the method by which they were selected) setting up a field guide intent on displaying examples of what should be sought in any given morph. Everyone's ideas about what is acceptable is just too variable, and the only certain thing you can ask is what genetics an animal has in it.

Perhaps you should go to the websites of those people YOU deem to be top breeders, print off copies of the very best examples of a morph YOU choose, and then bind them together to carry them with you to a show? Then, at least, you know that you would be looking for the best examples that will make YOU happy with your selections.

 

[Kat]

One thing I've done in the past, especially if I'm selling hets at a show, is to print up pictures of the parents and have them available at the booth. It's easier and less risky than carting around the adults themselves (though I've considered doing that on occasion), and it gives people a bit more confidence in what you're selling than just having labels on delicups. When you only hatch out a small number of clutches per year, this is a feasable option and gives the buyers an idea of what sort of stock their snakes are coming from. Obviously, when I post stuff on the net for sale, I post pictures of the parents as well. People are FAR more apt to buy a snake they can see than one they can't.

But does showing pictures of the parents give people an idea of what they can expect the hatchlings to look like? Not really. Hatchlings vary so much. I've seen several ads for snakes from candycane parents that are advertised as amels from candycane stock... mostly because they themselves don't fit the candycane bill. I've bred a fairly blah normal to a nice lavender and gotten stunning lavender hatchlings. I've bred a nice blizzard to a really nice okeetee, and gotten semi-blah hatchlings.

I've got this nightmare vision of someone printing off a bunch of pics from Rich's photo gallery, going to a show, and arguing with breeders that they shouldn't be charging so much for the snakes they're selling because they don't 'measure up' appearance-wise.

Aaaanyway... I've made my point a few posts ago... right now I'm just rambling.

-Kat

 

[Alicia]

We can't

I'm not missing the point. I understand what your saying perfectly. I just don't agree with you

I think that anyone who wants to print out pics of there dream morphs should and don't buy untill you find what you want. Don't settle for less. Buy the best you can afford and ask lots of questions about the animal your interested in. If the breeder has pics all the better. I think that's wonderful if you can do it. The point I'm trying to make is that people should not be forced to do these things. My opinion is if your not comfortable with the answers you get, walk away. I don't think anyone will twist your arm and make you buy.

I don't think it's fair to assume that if your not a top scale name you don't have top shelf livestock. There are many breeders here who have beautiful, quality animals to offer.

:headbang: