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How many mice
- Thread starter waldo
- Start date
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
I wouldn't recommend trying to introduce new females to an existing breeding colony. Your current females will NOT be happy about that, and it could cause issues.
I would recommend trying a few small colonies in smaller tubs or cages rather than one large colony. Then you can use female holdbacks to populate the new colony, and just purchase a new male to prevent to much "brotherly love", as it were. For a 1.5 colony, a plastic tub or bin with a footprint about the same as a 10g aquarium should be plenty. You can put a lot of mice in a 10g aquarium...
I would recommend trying a few small colonies in smaller tubs or cages rather than one large colony. Then you can use female holdbacks to populate the new colony, and just purchase a new male to prevent to much "brotherly love", as it were. For a 1.5 colony, a plastic tub or bin with a footprint about the same as a 10g aquarium should be plenty. You can put a lot of mice in a 10g aquarium...
heatherhead42
New member
Couple things. First, here is a handy calculator to help you determine how many mice can comfortably be housed in any given container:
http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/cagecalculator.cfm
Please note that when you get a "9.6" number that does NOT mean "9 males 6 females." The "." is a decimal point, and means "nine point six individuals."
Another note about that calculator--I do NOT recommend posting on the associated forum, as it is a forum for PET mice lovers only, and feeder breeders usually get a pretty good lashing. So for your own safety...
Back to adding females to your colony. Mouse fancy breeders do it all the time. It's no biggie, but there are precautions you must take if you wish to do it successfully:
First, quarantine your new mice just as you would a new snake--usual quarantine is three weeks, but you're okay at about two, usually. This is for the same obvious reasons as you quarantine your snakes, except that mice can die a lot more quickly and you can wipe out your entire colony before you even realized there was a problem.
Second, when you are ready to introduce the new mice, take them all out and let them play together in a totally neutral territory (some place that does not smell like either group of mice--a sterilite tub, the top of a table with no way for them to climb down, etc) and under supervision (do not do any of this if you have nursing mothers with babies under four weeks, by the way--you could easily lose the babies and possibly some adults as well).
If they play together fine without too much fussing, you can leave them alone for a bit while you thoroughly clean and disinfect everything in their enclosure. Wheels, toys, etc. Dispose entirely of their bedding. There should be not a single molecule of the existing colony's mouse smell remaining. Use baking soda or bleach or whatever you need to to get the smell completely out.
Put new bedding in the cage. It's best also to add a NEW nestbox, and leave the old one out for now (you can re-introduce it later). Everything about the enclosure should seem totally new to the mice--so put things in different locations than usual and include only toys they're not familiar with (except the wheels, which should be thoroughly de-scented). The new nestbox can be a small cardboard box with a hole cut in a corner, an upside down clay pot with a hole, or whatever you can find that is the right size, as long as it won't seem familiar to your existing colony. Make sure there is only ONE nestbox and that it is large enough for all of them but small enough for them to feel secure. You want them to sleep together, as sleeping together is a major form of bonding for mice (isn't it for all of us?).
When introducing new mice, I also do not put many toys in the cage for at least a week (the fewer things to fight over, the better--you want them playing with each other, not with their toys). A couple of wheels (mine ALWAYS have wheels, and I do strongly encourage their use, as mice really need to run and exercise to be happy and healthy--I have one wheel for every two mice) and maybe a ladder and a toilet paper tube or two should be sufficient for the first week.
Remember that while snakes live life in the slow lane, mice live it in the fast lane. If after a week they are getting along with few squabbles and sleeping together at least most of the time, then they are practically family and they'll be fine. You can now add back the old nestbox (thoroughly cleaned) and any additional toys you may want to use.
BUT, do keep a close eye on them in their "new" enclosure for the first 24 hours (in fact, I wouldn't leave their room for the first two or three hours). If there is some squeaking and fussing at first it's not a big deal. But if you've got blood or serious biting (ear nicks or hindquarter abrasions), then you may have to separate them and try again in a few days.
Good luck.
Heather
http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/cagecalculator.cfm
Please note that when you get a "9.6" number that does NOT mean "9 males 6 females." The "." is a decimal point, and means "nine point six individuals."
Another note about that calculator--I do NOT recommend posting on the associated forum, as it is a forum for PET mice lovers only, and feeder breeders usually get a pretty good lashing. So for your own safety...
Back to adding females to your colony. Mouse fancy breeders do it all the time. It's no biggie, but there are precautions you must take if you wish to do it successfully:
First, quarantine your new mice just as you would a new snake--usual quarantine is three weeks, but you're okay at about two, usually. This is for the same obvious reasons as you quarantine your snakes, except that mice can die a lot more quickly and you can wipe out your entire colony before you even realized there was a problem.
Second, when you are ready to introduce the new mice, take them all out and let them play together in a totally neutral territory (some place that does not smell like either group of mice--a sterilite tub, the top of a table with no way for them to climb down, etc) and under supervision (do not do any of this if you have nursing mothers with babies under four weeks, by the way--you could easily lose the babies and possibly some adults as well).
If they play together fine without too much fussing, you can leave them alone for a bit while you thoroughly clean and disinfect everything in their enclosure. Wheels, toys, etc. Dispose entirely of their bedding. There should be not a single molecule of the existing colony's mouse smell remaining. Use baking soda or bleach or whatever you need to to get the smell completely out.
Put new bedding in the cage. It's best also to add a NEW nestbox, and leave the old one out for now (you can re-introduce it later). Everything about the enclosure should seem totally new to the mice--so put things in different locations than usual and include only toys they're not familiar with (except the wheels, which should be thoroughly de-scented). The new nestbox can be a small cardboard box with a hole cut in a corner, an upside down clay pot with a hole, or whatever you can find that is the right size, as long as it won't seem familiar to your existing colony. Make sure there is only ONE nestbox and that it is large enough for all of them but small enough for them to feel secure. You want them to sleep together, as sleeping together is a major form of bonding for mice (isn't it for all of us?
).When introducing new mice, I also do not put many toys in the cage for at least a week (the fewer things to fight over, the better--you want them playing with each other, not with their toys). A couple of wheels (mine ALWAYS have wheels, and I do strongly encourage their use, as mice really need to run and exercise to be happy and healthy--I have one wheel for every two mice) and maybe a ladder and a toilet paper tube or two should be sufficient for the first week.
Remember that while snakes live life in the slow lane, mice live it in the fast lane. If after a week they are getting along with few squabbles and sleeping together at least most of the time, then they are practically family and they'll be fine. You can now add back the old nestbox (thoroughly cleaned) and any additional toys you may want to use.
BUT, do keep a close eye on them in their "new" enclosure for the first 24 hours (in fact, I wouldn't leave their room for the first two or three hours). If there is some squeaking and fussing at first it's not a big deal. But if you've got blood or serious biting (ear nicks or hindquarter abrasions), then you may have to separate them and try again in a few days.
Good luck.
Heather
heatherhead42
New member
:shrugs: Whatever. It sounds like he wants to be able to feed off all his current offspring and still grow the colony. Separate colonies aren't (for whatever reason) an option. So I thought I'd throw out this other option. If it's not helpful, you can just ignore me. I'm used to it.
Heather
I'm used to it. Heather
Don't take it personally, I was just making an observation. While your instructions on mouse introductions are undoubtedly very useful for pet mice, it just doesn't seem like it's really worth the trouble or even feasible for feeders.
For one thing, I doubt many mouse feeder breeders ever really socialize them much, and as such there is probably no place where they can let them out to "play" as you suggest. They would just escape.
It's not up to me anyway, as I said just an observation. The OP can do whatever he wants. Luckily I was able to get rid of my smelly mouse colonies, I breed natal rats now which don't smell or have the social issues that mice have.
For one thing, I doubt many mouse feeder breeders ever really socialize them much, and as such there is probably no place where they can let them out to "play" as you suggest. They would just escape.
It's not up to me anyway, as I said just an observation. The OP can do whatever he wants. Luckily I was able to get rid of my smelly mouse colonies, I breed natal rats now which don't smell or have the social issues that mice have.
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
I thought it was great information Heather, and thats exactly how I introduce new strains of mice into my colonies. I never do it for numbers sake, if I need more breeders I just grow up females from current litters. I only introduce new mice for bloods sake. I don't like my strains being weak or constantly inbred. I also love working with moose morphs so it makes sense to buy a new fancy mouse and see what pops out when bred to my exsiting colonies
I will only ever add new mice to young adult groups. That havent been bred yet or have maybe only had one or two litters. Long established colonies sometimes just refuse point black to have new members introduced.
I will only ever add new mice to young adult groups. That havent been bred yet or have maybe only had one or two litters. Long established colonies sometimes just refuse point black to have new members introduced.
heatherhead42
New member
Thanks, Tula--especially for that additional information. I guess it might get more complicated with an older established colony, and that hadn't occurred to me.
Flagg--I wasn't taking it personally. I have a question for feeder breeders who don't socialize their mice, though--what do you do at cage cleaning time? When I said to let them out to "play" I didn't mean to play with humans--I just meant to put them somewhere safe but neutral to get to know each other. So, whatever you do with them at cleaning time, that's probably a reasonably neutral territory to introduce them in. I hope that makes sense.
Heather
Flagg--I wasn't taking it personally.
I have a question for feeder breeders who don't socialize their mice, though--what do you do at cage cleaning time? When I said to let them out to "play" I didn't mean to play with humans--I just meant to put them somewhere safe but neutral to get to know each other. So, whatever you do with them at cleaning time, that's probably a reasonably neutral territory to introduce them in. I hope that makes sense. Heather
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
Heather-
FWIW...I thought that was great information, and something I will probably pout to use in the future.
Personally, I would rather have several small colonies in seperate plastic tubs over one large colony. Cleaning, smell, feeding, fighting, housing...it all just seems to exponentially become exacerbated with larger colonies. Smaller colonies keep all of the issues to a smaller degree of occurance, IMO and experience...
FWIW...I thought that was great information, and something I will probably pout to use in the future.
Personally, I would rather have several small colonies in seperate plastic tubs over one large colony. Cleaning, smell, feeding, fighting, housing...it all just seems to exponentially become exacerbated with larger colonies. Smaller colonies keep all of the issues to a smaller degree of occurance, IMO and experience...
waldo
Crazy Tarantula Lady
I also though it was very good advice, thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm not overly concerned with a few bites here and there, I mostly wanted to know how many mice I could house in my one tank.
Having more colonies isn't an option because I have absolutely no room for more cages, maybe when I sell off some of my tarantulas I will have more space.
My snake collection just increased by 5, the same time my mouse supplier had all his frozen pinks go bad so I'm kinda in a sticky spot but I may have found another local supplier.
Having more colonies isn't an option because I have absolutely no room for more cages, maybe when I sell off some of my tarantulas I will have more space.
My snake collection just increased by 5, the same time my mouse supplier had all his frozen pinks go bad so I'm kinda in a sticky spot but I may have found another local supplier.
heatherhead42
New member
Good luck with that! Glad the tips were helpful. Keep in mind that if your existing mice get territorial, it could lead to more than a few bites--they will sometimes fight to the death. That's why all the precautions to help ease the transition! And it sounds like a lot, but it's really not--it's primarily just a really good cage cleaning and a few hours of close observation (I just take my computer in the room with them and do something else while keeping ears open for sounds of fighting--then I check on them every couple hours for the rest of the day). Definitely worth it to prevent losing some of your stock and having to start over again.
As for not having room--two sweater-box sized tubs will fit in roughly the same amount of space as a single 20 gallon long. You could even place one new tub on top of the existing tank, as you should still have enough ventilation on the half that wouldn't be covered by the tub. The only difference in having mice in a tub versus snakes in a tub is that mice need more ventilation than you can get by soldering holes--I cut enormous windows in the lids and cover them securely with 1/4 inch wire mesh. It's kind of a pain, but it's cheap and effective. And tubs have the distinct advantage of being really lightweight and easy to clean. So you might be able to have two colonies after all.
I hope your feeder situation settles itself out one way or another. Glad to provide whatever help I can.
Heather
P.S. Don't forget to check that cage size calculator--you can type in the length and width of your tank/tub and it will tell you how many mice can live happily in that container. It's pretty cool.
As for not having room--two sweater-box sized tubs will fit in roughly the same amount of space as a single 20 gallon long. You could even place one new tub on top of the existing tank, as you should still have enough ventilation on the half that wouldn't be covered by the tub. The only difference in having mice in a tub versus snakes in a tub is that mice need more ventilation than you can get by soldering holes--I cut enormous windows in the lids and cover them securely with 1/4 inch wire mesh. It's kind of a pain, but it's cheap and effective. And tubs have the distinct advantage of being really lightweight and easy to clean. So you might be able to have two colonies after all.
I hope your feeder situation settles itself out one way or another.
Glad to provide whatever help I can.Heather
P.S. Don't forget to check that cage size calculator--you can type in the length and width of your tank/tub and it will tell you how many mice can live happily in that container. It's pretty cool.
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
I introduce adult females to each other all the time, and I never have any problems over the odd minor squabble.
I use my males on a rotation basis, so the females only have a male in when I want the mated up. So if I want to merge two colonies of females, I do it when they're all due to be mated, put them both together, and put the male in at the same time. They'll be fine once the male's there, and once he's removed they'll continue to live together fine.
I use my males on a rotation basis, so the females only have a male in when I want the mated up. So if I want to merge two colonies of females, I do it when they're all due to be mated, put them both together, and put the male in at the same time. They'll be fine once the male's there, and once he's removed they'll continue to live together fine.
snakemom1961
Spring is here!
I too found your information very much a benefit since I'm at the point I feel I need to add another female to me 1.2 colony.. I'll probably go out this weekend and buy one and take the steps you mentioned to integrate her.. THANKS for you post.
heatherhead42
New member
Glad to be of help. Let me hear how it goes for you--some females just plain won't like each other and may take time to get integrated. But if they're similar in size (never introduce juveniles to an established colony of adults) they'll eventually learn to get along. The only time I've had to try more than once was when I had a very tiny mouse (she was an adult but had been a runt) and the first time I introduced her to my established group, she was soundly beaten. The second time (a week later), she took the initiative and beat up on everyone else until they left her alone. Now they all get along great. Good luck,
Heather
heatherhead42
New member
Toya, that's interesting about the male helping reduce fights. I must admit that everything I've said here is based on experience with female-only colonies, so the presence of a male may change things about a bit. It sounds like it might actually be helpful, though--I can imagine that the male probably *likes* having new girls for his harem. I'd love to hear everyone's experiences with their various variables.
Heather
I'd love to hear everyone's experiences with their various variables.Heather
Toyah's success could be due to the fact that since she is constantly rotating males in and out, the colony never gets permanently established and hence doesn't get as territorial.
I would think that method could slow down production, as the mice would have to get re-acquainted each time and might not breed as quickly. But then if the mice are used to it, maybe not. I haven't tried that method, but I know that new colonies usually take much longer to get started.
I would think that method could slow down production, as the mice would have to get re-acquainted each time and might not breed as quickly. But then if the mice are used to it, maybe not. I haven't tried that method, but I know that new colonies usually take much longer to get started.
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
The colony consists of the females, and that colony is established. Rotating males slows down production in that I don't allow "back to back" litters (the girls are either nursing or pregnant, not both), but every female in a colony will give birth to a litter 19 days or so after the male was introduced. Young colonies sometimes take a while to get going because either the animals are sexually immature, or because of reabsorbing through stress.
Female mice don't want competition. They accept mice they've grown up with, because they're not so directly in competition with them - I guess they assume they're still passing down the same genes, so their instincts say tolerate them. This is why when you introduce new adult females to an established group, they fight - they do not want extra competition for the resources available.
Mice come into heat, like rats, once every few days for an evening. The arrival of a butch buck male will quite often interrupt their hormonal cycle - they must take advantage of the opportunity that presents itself! Especially if the male comes with new females (competition), then they do their best to make sure they're the ones getting the opportunity to pass on their genes - the best form of competition in this situation is to be the female who attracts the male and gets the chance to reproduce.
By the time the morning comes and the females are no longer in heat, their new competition is part of the colony, most of the time. They smell the same, they've been in their beds, in their dirty bedding, and they all smell of the same male. They're family! No competition, just a natural communal instinct to continue on with.
Female mice don't want competition. They accept mice they've grown up with, because they're not so directly in competition with them - I guess they assume they're still passing down the same genes, so their instincts say tolerate them. This is why when you introduce new adult females to an established group, they fight - they do not want extra competition for the resources available.
Mice come into heat, like rats, once every few days for an evening. The arrival of a butch buck male will quite often interrupt their hormonal cycle - they must take advantage of the opportunity that presents itself! Especially if the male comes with new females (competition), then they do their best to make sure they're the ones getting the opportunity to pass on their genes - the best form of competition in this situation is to be the female who attracts the male and gets the chance to reproduce.
By the time the morning comes and the females are no longer in heat, their new competition is part of the colony, most of the time. They smell the same, they've been in their beds, in their dirty bedding, and they all smell of the same male. They're family! No competition, just a natural communal instinct to continue on with.