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Hypo Ashy Corns
- Thread starter Rich Z
- Start date
Okay, okay, I said I didn't care at all, but i do...a little. :duck:
The only thing that I think is necessary for ALL morphs, is that if there is a "technical" term for the morph (anerythrism, hypomelanism, or amelanism) it should be known. It doesn't have to be the name used on a daily basis, but I do think it should be known that cinder or ember or ashy or whatever other name you can come up with is actually a form of anerythrism. This technical naming has stuck, at least at some level, for most morphs.
For most of the patterned morphs there is no term that mentions what is happening with the pigments or proteins (that we corn snake-ists know at least), so there is no real technical term for us. For anerys (a, b, and c), hypos (hypo a, and all the others), and amel the technical term is known.
On the other hand, lavender, and the cinder version of anery c for that matter (oooh, scary 2 names for one gene in one sentence!), are both versions of hypoerythrism, or that's what some say. I'm not sure if I agree with the idea that lavender is a form of hypoerythrism, but that's a different, and might I say, not quite so pointless debate. Caramel is actually hyperxanthism (more yellow than normal), but that name too, has no stuck. I would like these terms, that is hypo-, hyper-, a-, xanthism, erythrism, and melanism, to be known so that when one is looking at what is actually happening at the production level of these pigments, we know what we mean when we say that the source of melanin is cut of here, or hyperxanthism replaces erythrin with xanthine because...(in English you say?: the gene causing extra yellow pigment replaces red pigment with yellow pigment), or it just adds xanthine because...
This is not necessary for the "consumers", that is the people buying the snakes, but for this group of breeders and serious hobbyists, it would be nice for a name to describe what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE SNAKE. That's the point of these genes right, to change the snake?
The names aren't as pretty, but it makes sense, and I think for us breeders and serious hobbyists it makes sense. So don't get rid of the name anery c (all though it could be hypoerythrism rather than anerythrism...) just yet. There is a reason for that name, and it's because it means something, it's not just some random word (like bobsled...) that might or might not make sense for the animal it pertains to.
Okay, thanks for listening to my one input in this debate, and I'll never again be bothered by names. Okay, maybe that's not true, but I'm not going to care as long as I get what's meant. Any punishment i get for contributing to the discussion, I deserve. :grin01:
The only thing that I think is necessary for ALL morphs, is that if there is a "technical" term for the morph (anerythrism, hypomelanism, or amelanism) it should be known. It doesn't have to be the name used on a daily basis, but I do think it should be known that cinder or ember or ashy or whatever other name you can come up with is actually a form of anerythrism. This technical naming has stuck, at least at some level, for most morphs.
For most of the patterned morphs there is no term that mentions what is happening with the pigments or proteins (that we corn snake-ists know at least), so there is no real technical term for us. For anerys (a, b, and c), hypos (hypo a, and all the others), and amel the technical term is known.
On the other hand, lavender, and the cinder version of anery c for that matter (oooh, scary 2 names for one gene in one sentence!), are both versions of hypoerythrism, or that's what some say. I'm not sure if I agree with the idea that lavender is a form of hypoerythrism, but that's a different, and might I say, not quite so pointless debate. Caramel is actually hyperxanthism (more yellow than normal), but that name too, has no stuck. I would like these terms, that is hypo-, hyper-, a-, xanthism, erythrism, and melanism, to be known so that when one is looking at what is actually happening at the production level of these pigments, we know what we mean when we say that the source of melanin is cut of here, or hyperxanthism replaces erythrin with xanthine because...(in English you say?: the gene causing extra yellow pigment replaces red pigment with yellow pigment), or it just adds xanthine because...
This is not necessary for the "consumers", that is the people buying the snakes, but for this group of breeders and serious hobbyists, it would be nice for a name to describe what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE SNAKE. That's the point of these genes right, to change the snake?
The names aren't as pretty, but it makes sense, and I think for us breeders and serious hobbyists it makes sense. So don't get rid of the name anery c (all though it could be hypoerythrism rather than anerythrism...) just yet. There is a reason for that name, and it's because it means something, it's not just some random word (like bobsled...) that might or might not make sense for the animal it pertains to.
Okay, thanks for listening to my one input in this debate, and I'll never again be bothered by names. Okay, maybe that's not true, but I'm not going to care as long as I get what's meant. Any punishment i get for contributing to the discussion, I deserve. :grin01:
carol
Down with the sickness
And what makes you so sure of that? I've seen a few examples that have a lot of red in them. I think it's quite a risky statement to say they are a form of anerythrism. Ya it would be great if we had a technical term for everything but the fact is we really don't know what is happening with most of these morphs. Case in point I think there is more to Caramels than just "more yellow", there is definitely some Anerythrisim going on there too. :awcrap:tbtusk said:
Okay, sorry, i guess I did suggest some things that are not set in stone, but you get the point right?
Also, as for the lots of red in anery c, I say this later on:
There you go, hypoerythrism, just as you suggested. I actually mentioned that in a thread a while back, and tortally agree with you. I never considered them anerythristic in any way shape or form until Rich explained how different his 'ashy' corns and other 'cinder' corns can look in terms of saddle count and redness (and consiquitly why he chose a different name).
As for the yellow being anerythristic 9or at least hypoerythristic0 as you suggested, i said this:
Here, I also agree with you. Again, we have no idea what is happening at the "production level" as i've been calling it, so there is no way of knowing exactly what is happening to create the colors we see, but caramel does seem to get rid of, or replace, reds and oranges.
Nothing can be known for sure until we do some serious genetic testing and look at what protiens are being created and what protiens are not being created, but i agree woth those ideas and observations completely.
Also, as for the lots of red in anery c, I say this later on:
tbtusk said:
There you go, hypoerythrism, just as you suggested. I actually mentioned that in a thread a while back, and tortally agree with you. I never considered them anerythristic in any way shape or form until Rich explained how different his 'ashy' corns and other 'cinder' corns can look in terms of saddle count and redness (and consiquitly why he chose a different name).
As for the yellow being anerythristic 9or at least hypoerythristic0 as you suggested, i said this:
tbtusk said:
Here, I also agree with you. Again, we have no idea what is happening at the "production level" as i've been calling it, so there is no way of knowing exactly what is happening to create the colors we see, but caramel does seem to get rid of, or replace, reds and oranges.
Nothing can be known for sure until we do some serious genetic testing and look at what protiens are being created and what protiens are not being created, but i agree woth those ideas and observations completely.
carol said:
Yeah, in my opinion, even the technical terms may not be accurate at all. When I first showed Dr. Bechtel a Caramel, he said it was actually a TRUE anerythristic, based on what the term actually means. It shows the coloration of a corn snake when reds and oranges are EXTRACTED, leaving behind the other pigments. What we are now calling "anerythrism" really isn't the extraction of reds and oranges at all. It is the replacement of those pigments with melanin, really only allowing some traces of xanthism to peek through and sometimes modify the melanin. At least in my opinion. So "technically" hypermelanistic would probably have been a better term to use.
Quite likely, if the actual mechanisms were know via dissections and inspection of the pigmentation cells, and a technical name applied to such mechanism concerning how it actually produced the pigment change, I suspect the technical name would actually be composed of a paragraph of terms rather than anything very simplistic and able to be uttered with a single breath of air in the lungs.
Your probably, in fact almost definitely right. I guess the point i'm trying to make, is that the more "technical" terms, if they can be called that at all, are better than the names we "make up", when not going for marketability.
I've realized, that the only reason i have thought this is better is because it describews what's happening in the snake, as i said, but all the names we have already do that. Caramel, lavender, and most of the others work even better, so I'm not sure what I 'm thinking I guess. kepp on naming them whatever then, it doesn't matter at all it seems (although names that describe the snake are improtant). Caramel, lavender probably, anery, and charcoal are all anerytheistic. None have red or orange coloration. Caramel is actually anerythristic hyperxanthic, and anery is anerythristic hypermelanistic hypoxanthic. Cinder must be hypoerythristic, hypermelanistic axanthic.
As you said, it gets too complicated to discribe the morphs 'properly'.
I've realized, that the only reason i have thought this is better is because it describews what's happening in the snake, as i said, but all the names we have already do that. Caramel, lavender, and most of the others work even better, so I'm not sure what I 'm thinking I guess. kepp on naming them whatever then, it doesn't matter at all it seems (although names that describe the snake are improtant). Caramel, lavender probably, anery, and charcoal are all anerytheistic. None have red or orange coloration. Caramel is actually anerythristic hyperxanthic, and anery is anerythristic hypermelanistic hypoxanthic. Cinder must be hypoerythristic, hypermelanistic axanthic.
As you said, it gets too complicated to discribe the morphs 'properly'.
KJUN
Well-known member
jazzgeek said:
I still don't think why people who don't own them and may not have even ever seen one in life think their vote for a name is anywhere near as important as what the ORIGINATOR calls it! I mean, I don't like the name ashy, either, but the "cinder" name disgusts me even more. To each their own. I'll follow the name given by the originator......I'll get to pick a name I like when I discover a new morph.
KJUN
Well-known member
Tula_Montage said:
LOL - so when is the UK gonna stop using "strawberry" for a pink snow just because that name brings a different morph to mind in the US? LOL.
Heck, we have 20 different names for the same morphs within one state of the US. I don't think we need to worry about opposite ends of the globe. It'll beyond HOPE of ever coordianting anything world-wide.
KJ
KJUN
Well-known member
Joejr14 said:
Joejr14 said:
Both of those things deserve top be re-stated.....lol. Perfect.
Rich Z said:
Maybe the ashy is "nothing more than" a hypereumelanistic cornsnake then....lol.
Rich Z said:
If you use hybrids, I'd say start with the corn x bairdii crosses. I only say that because the amel cinder I saw looked very similar to one of those that I have seen images of. I don't claim there is a connection - I just say they look similar to me. Anything else drawn from that is NOT my intent, and it never has been. ....or use Intermontane ratsnakes to breed higher blotch counts into cornsnakes.
On questionable purity, do it with the "frosted" cornsnakes. I've seen
frosted (pure or not is questionable) where the center of the blotches almost disappear. This makes each blotch ALMOST look like two as it is split in half. I suspect it would be EASY to selectively breed for a blotch that divides in half making a snake at least look like it has 2x the number of saddles it should - at least in amel animals..... (Actually, I've got a hypothesis that this is how some of the Lampropeltini derived so many blotch counts from a larger blotched ancestor....but I can't prove that.)
KJ
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
KJUN said:
Hey, I thought strawberry snow was in use first? Kathy mentions strawberry snows in her book but doesn't mention non-snow strawberries at all...
Has strawberry hypo been proven as a separate gene yet btw? I thought there was some discussion over whether it was just a selectively bred look.
KJUN
Well-known member
toyah said:
Pink snows have been called everything in the world at one time or another, so that doesn't count....lol. Let's see...I've seen them sold as pink snows, coral snows, Christmas Corns (which has also been used to describe two non-snow morphs), Kleidescope corns (which was also used to describe a type of amel), Neon corns, etc. As far as dates, I don't know. These hypo corns have been called "strawberries" for ~15 years or more. I don't ever remember hearing "strawberry SNOW" nearly that long ago.
Of course, I just made a lot of assumptions in the previous paragraph that might or might not be valid. Who knows.
toyah said:
It depends on who you ask. I've got 2.3 adults, 0.1 aner from 2 strawberry parents, and 1.0 subadult amel from 2 strawberry parents here I'm working with to try and answer that question definitively. I produced some eggs to help "test" both theories this year. We'll make some more cross tests next year, and then we can finally check our hypothesis in 2 years when this year's babies are breedable adults. by then, I'll likely have 20-24 strawberry or "het strawberry" corns breeding trials in the back room. If that doesn't answer that question, nothing will, eh?
jazzgeek
The Rule Of Thirds.
After lurking here for about three months, my first post ever in this forum had to do with the debate naming diffused anerys - "Granites" - wherein one proponent was promoting "Raider", simply because of the colors were the same as his favorite football team.KJUN said:I still don't think why people who don't own them and may not have even ever seen one in life think their vote for a name is anywhere near as important as what the ORIGINATOR calls it! I mean, I don't like the name ashy, either, but the "cinder" name disgusts me even more. To each their own. I'll follow the name given by the originator......I'll get to pick a name I like when I discover a new morph.
And as Dr. Phil has said...."How's that working out for you?"
The originator can call it whatever it pleases: Ashy, Stanley, Cinder, Trundlefart, whatever....but the marketplace, as always, will have the final say.
I'm all for that.
regards,
jazz
dionythicus
Kiss My Hearse
I am on the bandwagon for the originator to choose a name, but it comes down to what the majority (read:buyers) accept. I like Cinder for two reasons: the colour, which has already been compared to a embers in a fire and that the morph was called Anery C very early on, and even if its not really a form of anery, Anery C(inder) makes sense. Its easy for even newbies to put together.
I got to go with Joe on the plasma, tho'. Hate it. I do like diffused, not diffuse, for describe what's happening to the pattern and colour in the outcrossed bloodred morphs.
I got to go with Joe on the plasma, tho'. Hate it. I do like diffused, not diffuse, for describe what's happening to the pattern and colour in the outcrossed bloodred morphs.
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
jazzgeek said:
I actually applied for a Trademark on the name Trundlefart, so........things could get legal! :duck:
cornmorphs
New member
i just dont think the 'small country' thing was needed.
whatever you think, if someone actually sat down and worked out the good and bad things of living in every country, the uk ( i know its not a country) but it would be right at the top, or damb near.
just a silly comment really from someone that is generally respected by all, at the end of the day you guys in the US make pretty much all new morphs, so whether we like it or not it has to stick, we cant change what you decide.. just no need to makes negative comments about probably the only country in the world that likes you guys. (read that correctly before giving me neg replies, there is nothing offensive in there, its more politely protective.. i have nothing against amercan peeps.. just incase anyone thought thats what they read too).
whatever you think, if someone actually sat down and worked out the good and bad things of living in every country, the uk ( i know its not a country) but it would be right at the top, or damb near.
just a silly comment really from someone that is generally respected by all, at the end of the day you guys in the US make pretty much all new morphs, so whether we like it or not it has to stick, we cant change what you decide.. just no need to makes negative comments about probably the only country in the world that likes you guys. (read that correctly before giving me neg replies, there is nothing offensive in there, its more politely protective.. i have nothing against amercan peeps.. just incase anyone thought thats what they read too).