I need to vent..... Wouldn't you be upset by this?

[wendhend]

So, I paid top dollar (and I mean this is the most expensive snake I've ever bought) for a tiger super dwarf retic with two het genes. He is the only one like this I have been able to find with the genes combo I want to breed and make nice morphs with the beautiful female super dwarf I already have. The seller sent me a full-body picture, and the snake looked pretty with no obvious defects. But, then I received him yesterday, and this is what is face looks like. It is quite deformed from what looks to me like a old case of nose rub. I went back and looked a the original picture he sent me and did see a dark spot on his nose, but his face was small in the picture and not facing the camera. I emailed the seller about it and sent him this picture. This was his reply:

"The picture looks terrible! Looking closely at it, though, I can see where it looks like the scales around the very front rostral scale and heat pits is not completely connected, so I think you are right about the possibility that he had a nose rub at one time. To be honest, I did not notice this when I pulled him out to look him over when I took the picture. In your picture, though, it seems that the nose has been pushed in the bag, and flattened out some. It’s hard to tell from the picture, but are the sides of his mouth are pushed out a bit, or swollen looking when viewed from above? If that’s the case, that part is fresh, and is likely from the shipping. Superdwarves, being active, are always pushing and exploring whatever they are in, which is why I was concerned about weather, and I put him in an oversized bag, but apparently to no avail. The good news is, the scales that are not fully connected seem to be nearly healed ( it will go away in a couple sheds), and the “mushy” nose from the bag should go away much sooner, as long as he’s not pushing in whatever you have him now. If you are unhappy with him, you can send him back and I will refund your money, but unfortunately I don’t have any more Tiger het Snows available with the exception of one female that’s part of a breeding package. Otherwise, if you would like to hang onto him for just a little while, I think you will find that after settling in, and perhaps one shed cycle, he will look 100% better. Let me know what you think, thanks."

So, I'm upset by this. Can you really not notice something like this? How much of this could have possibly occurred in the snake bag on a one-day journey? Is "mushy nose" a real thing that might occur while being shipped? If so, does it really get better? I'm debating how to handle this. What do you guys think?

 

[Kokopelli]

First off, I think that the name of the breeder should be mentioned for the sake of others- I also think that you need to evaluate your situation... if indeed this is your only option for a SD het snow, it is perhaps advisable to keep him but work out a deal with the breeder for some measure of partial refund or compensation... if it's a go/no go deal... I'd ship the animal back and wait another year- snakes will continue hatching... and you're better off with a healthy animal than take a chance with this one.

I'd be ticked off, without a doubt. I am surprised that he would deny you the female- who cares if she's in another package? You owe a person a healthy animal, regardless on how you hoped to sell it.

Did you try Prehistoric pets? they seem to have quite a few of those... though they may be the breeders you worked with (in which case, it's a shame, because I got a very good impression on them).

 

[wendhend]

Thanks Oren! I'm not sure I want to say who it is just yet. They do have a good reputation, and there is not a bit of negative feedback about them on the BOI. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I have some serious doubts about this guy's face ever growing back.

As a snake seller myself, I know I wouldn't ask full price on a snake that was disfigured, even if it was self-inflicted by the snake. I would acknowlege that it had a big (and probably permanent) cosmetic defect, tell potential buyers what happened and sell it significantly cheaper because of it. It might still be a hard sell, but somebody out there would appreciate the discount.

Super dwarf tigers double het snow are just not easy to find, so realistically I can't just send him back and buy one from someone else. Believe me.... I've shopped around. So, what I'm thinking is that I will probably try to negotiate some kind of partial refund for this snake. My girl will be ready to breed next year, so if I wait around for a baby to hatch, it would probaby delay my project. It's just hard to look at that face and not be upset.....

 

[Nanci]

I would be very upset. But the person seems like he's dealing with it fairly. He has offered to refund your money. He has discussed how the injury might have occured. If he is honest, then it follows that the snake must have injured himself in transit.

I might take the snake to a vet for an opinion- on the freshness of the injury and the prognosis. If it's fresh, it seems logical that it might look a lot better after one or two sheds. If the injury doesn't have a negative effect on the snake other than cosmetic- you can ask for a price reduction. I got a significant price reduction on a snake with a tail ding- nearly 50% off. While true that a cosmetic flaw doesn't affect the animal, the owner still looks at it and is bothered by it for the rest of the animal's life.

But what if he says no? Do you need the genes so badly that you will choose to just keep him anyway? I'm sure the seller knows the market, too. But how long has the snake been available? And will the seller be producing more next season, so this isn't his only one he will ever produce to profit from?

Would you want to keep him through one shed cycle to see what happens? As a seller, I might worry about leaving an animal with someone so long, unless I knew them, perhaps had sold other animals to them which are in good health.

 

[Pasodama]

I would be extremely unhappy if I received a snake in this condition.
Though I suppose I could be wrong ... I do not agree that the mushed nose is from pressing it during shipping.
It seems that the breeder is willing to work with you.
If you wish to keep the snake (which I think should be seen, by a qualified vet, for evaluation), I would request a fair partial refund.
Otherwise, I would return it for the full refund (which the breeder seems willing to do).

 

[Kokopelli]

I would be extremely unhappy if I received a snake in this condition.
Though I suppose I could be wrong ... I do not agree that the mushed nose is from pressing it during shipping.
It seems that the breeder is willing to work with you.
If you wish to keep the snake (which I think should be seen, by a qualified vet, for evaluation), I would request a fair partial refund.
Otherwise, I would return it for the full refund (which the breeder seems willing to do).

My sentiments exactly.
Nanci- a het for snow super dwarf retic is quite a big deal... so yes, the generic makeup is very relevant and in this case, the main parameter in the value of the snake, even if he is disfigured.

I do not believe that this cannot be corrected- the snake isn't in danger IMHO... and I've dealt with quite a few such infections... but I also believe it's going to be a bit permanent.... maybe work out a deal for a female het for snow next season or something?

I wouldn't pay a full price on the animal... and only ship the animal back if the breeder was completely uncooperative.

 

[Tara80]

I can say that I've had 1 snake (out of hundreds) that has done something similar. I put her into a small container to move her (due to reorganizing boxes and bins) and she must have been so upset about me doing so that she pushed and pushed until her face looked similar to the one you linked above. Because I covered her when she was in the smaller container (shoe box a little larger than a deli), I didn't see her doing so until I took her out and she looked like your little one above (a little worse).
This was my adult Terrazzo so, naturally it really upset me and I was afraid she was going to kill herself.
I ended up putting some Neosporin on the scrunched areas and just kept her viv super clean with paper towels and newspapers as a hide and changed her water continuously and she healed up within about a month. You'd never be able to tell now.
I wish I would have taken pictures for before and after comparison.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that the breeder may be being totally honest. Then again, he may not be. It's hard to tell because what he's saying is totally plausible.
From my perspective, it seems the seller is being as helpful, straightforward and honest as possible. In my opinion, I'd give him about a week and see how he looks after that but keep up with the breeder daily.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

In my personal opinion, he put an overactive animal in an oversized bag during shipping; that's a big mistake. He is right in that retics are known for being overly active. The bad part about giving it an oversized bag is that it gave it much more room to stretch out, and put that much more of it's muscle behind it's attempts to escape it's cloth prison. This, in turn, could very easily have injured and squished his nose if he were trying it for a long period of time throughout the night/shipping process.

 

[wendhend]

I can say that I've had 1 snake (out of hundreds) that has done something similar. I put her into a small container to move her (due to reorganizing boxes and bins) and she must have been so upset about me doing so that she pushed and pushed until her face looked similar to the one you linked above. Because I covered her when she was in the smaller container (shoe box a little larger than a deli), I didn't see her doing so until I took her out and she looked like your little one above (a little worse).
This was my adult Terrazzo so, naturally it really upset me and I was afraid she was going to kill herself.
I ended up putting some Neosporin on the scrunched areas and just kept her viv super clean with paper towels and newspapers as a hide and changed her water continuously and she healed up within about a month. You'd never be able to tell now.
I wish I would have taken pictures for before and after comparison.
Essentially, what I'm saying is that the breeder may be being totally honest. Then again, he may not be. It's hard to tell because what he's saying is totally plausible.
From my perspective, it seems the seller is being as helpful, straightforward and honest as possible. In my opinion, I'd give him about a week and see how he looks after that but keep up with the breeder daily.

Okay, it's good to hear that "mushy nose" is something that can actually happen to snakes..... and that they can make a full recovery from it. I had never heard of such a thing before, but I do really want to give this breeder the benefit of the doubt.

 

[wendhend]

So, here is a picture taken about 24 hours later than the initial one. There may be some improvement, but it's hard for me to tell for sure. I am planning to contact a vet I know that deals with herps to see what she thinks.

I have been corresponding with the breeder, and he has been fairly easy to work with. He really thinks it's going to clear up. I asked about a partial refund if it didn't, and he wasn't willing to do that but did offer a good discount toward a future animal of my choice. So, I am going to keep this guy for now and hope for the best outcome.

He is super docile and easy to handle. He also seems quite content in his new viv, and I haven't seen him trying to rub his nose on anything. He really is quite pretty if you don't focus on his nose. Here's a picture with his nose pointing the other direction:


Super Dwarf Tiger Retic Double Het Snow

 

[kadaysa]

oh my goodness. I have had one experience with this and not quite so severe but with a whitesided ratsnake female. When she came to me the top part of her nose was very very swollen. I as well contacted the seller and looked back at the photos and did not see what I saw from her photos compared to when I received her. I have had her a year now and although that initial swelling as gone done she still does not have the right shape to her nose. It is isn't as swollen but it is still like rudolph the red nose reindeer style. It is defnitely not a normal ratsnake nose to this day. Not to discourage you, just wanted to tell you my story

 

[RobbiesCornField]

He's a gorgeous boy! I'd keep him even if he did end up with a funky nose.

 

[Kokopelli]

The nose adds character- and a discount towards a future animal is what I meant by compensation.
I would however make sure that a time frame is given- from what clutch, and what percent of discount- just to have things properly ironed out.

He's beautiful.

 

[wendhend]

oh my goodness. I have had one experience with this and not quite so severe but with a whitesided ratsnake female. When she came to me the top part of her nose was very very swollen. I as well contacted the seller and looked back at the photos and did not see what I saw from her photos compared to when I received her. I have had her a year now and although that initial swelling as gone done she still does not have the right shape to her nose. It is isn't as swollen but it is still like rudolph the red nose reindeer style. It is defnitely not a normal ratsnake nose to this day. Not to discourage you, just wanted to tell you my story

Thanks for sharing! Honestly I think it is unlikely that my retic's nose will be comepletely normal again. I'm just hoping there will be some significant improvement after another shed or two. We will see.....

 

[wendhend]

He's a gorgeous boy! I'd keep him even if he did end up with a funky nose.

Thanks! I'm definitely planning to keep him.... even if his nose may be funky.

 

[Nanci]

It looks less swollen to me.

 

[toxiclight]

He is an absolutely gorgeous animal

 

[Pasodama]

He is a beautiful boy! Hope his nose issue clears up for you.

 

[cornsnakelovah]

Hope to see more pics as he (hopfully) gets better. Keep us posted. BTW that is one georgeous snake.

 

[wendhend]

The nose adds character- and a discount towards a future animal is what I meant by compensation.
I would however make sure that a time frame is given- from what clutch, and what percent of discount- just to have things properly ironed out.

He's beautiful.

Thanks! Yes, a discount toward a future animal works for me. I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for yet, but it will probably be some kind of super dwarf retic. There's something about them that just mesmerizes me. They are so pretty and personable. I don't know how you measure snake intelligence, but somehow I do feel like retics actually are more intelligent that other types of snakes. I also love that there are quite a few nice morphs available in super dwarf size now. This could be a very expensive addiction.....