Info for breeding rodents

[DeadSkinMask]

I had a few questions on breeding rodents, so I decided to google it and here is a list of websites that I came across that provide some good info.

(Keep in mind that most of these websites talk about breeding for pets, not for food)

Rats and Mice
- Breeding

mouse@horns
- General

snakebreeder.co.uk
- General

These are the three that seem to have the best info - Enjoy!

 

[CowBoyWay]

intellectually stimulating educational toys for mice

You can pretty much ignore the advice to get playsets,reclining chairs,tv sets and don't forget the intellectualy stimulating conversations that some mouse fanciers would have you believe is neccesary to correctly raise a mouse.To each his own.

For example,you will be warned about the long term health implications of keeping mice on pine shavings.
My Swiss Webster mice are sent to mousee heaven at much too young of age to develop a long term pine shaving dust exposure related health problem

 

[bmm]

I agree

Many times people forget to take into account what we snakes owners breed mice for. SNAKES! And not show mice or pet mice.



bmm

 

[CowBoyWay]

Grapefruit,vanilla and mice odor control
I have a recipe for my water that has substantially reduced the odor of my
mice.

The CowBoyWay is:

to one U.S. gallon(4.545 liters)of water

1 teaspoon imitation vanilla extract

3 drops of Organic Grapefruit seed extract (G.S.E.)standard strength

mix well and fill h2o bottles.

This recipe is written in sand and possibly increasing amounts of vanilla , G.S.E. may reduce odors even more.
G.S.E. is bitter and the vanilla seems to equal things out and make for a tasty micee drink.

The vanilla by itself does a decent job of reducing odors.
The grapefruit extract I believe gives the mouse urine an apparent anti-bacterial quality to it, thus very little odor.
I pay $9.99 U.S. at the grocery store health food section for 4 0z.,which is about 1,200 drops or about 400 gallons of mousee water. The brand I use has 1o milligrams of G.S.E. per drop, so if anyone would care to calculate the parts per million of G.S.E. in solution feel free.
Another benefit is that bacterial growth in bottles is prevented.
Many pet bird breeders that I'm aware of are using in there water bottles.
Zooculturists (zoo animal breeders) are using this more and more on the most exotic critters you can imagine.
Cutting edge stuff here kids.

I sanitize caging,worm my dogs/cats,and brush my teeth with this
amazing stuff.Sounds to good to be true,doesn't it.

"Grapefruit Seed Extract, according to published sources, is effective against more than 800 bacterial and viral organisms, 100 strains of fungus, and a large number of single-cell and multi-celled parasites."
When compared with 30 effective antibiotics and 18 proven fungicides. Grapefruit seed extract was proven to perform as well as any and all agents tested.

No other known natural antibiotic, antiseptic, disinfectant can demonstrate such safety, versatility and overall effectiveness as grapefruit seed extract.

Here's some links for more info:
http://www.herbalremedies.com/grapseedexth.html
http://www.pureliquidgold.com/
If you shop around online,be aware there is big price fluctuations from company to company.
Grapefruit,vanilla and mice odor control

 

[dartguy]

just a thought

have you tried putting it in your snakes water to see if any effects on odor there?

 

[CowBoyWay]

From rodents to snake water

You know I'm hesitant to recommend /suggest G.S.E. in a corn snakes water because there is always somebody (Read some little idiot yee-hah,home alone) that will figure out all by themselves that if one drop is good than 50 or 100 drops would be an awesome thing.

With that being said I use ONE (1) drop per gallon of tap water to inhibit bacterial growth because the corn snakes does actually immerse/soak themselves in it as well as drink the stuff.
If they just drank the water I would say 3 drops but thats not the case.
The hazard lies in misuse.You could burn there skin/eyes with too strong of a solution ,what that level is,I just don't know.
2 is probably ok,3 may be ok,I've never tried more than one drop per gallon
in a snakes h2o

Use sparingly,use sparingly,
use sparingly and did I say
USE SPARINGLY!!! A little dab will do ya

Idealy,I would use an aquarium ph tester and test the water. What you want is to make sure its floating in the neutral-slightly acidic 6-7 range.
Lower than the 6 range is to acidic IMHO,with 7 being your neutral.

Many university labs adjust the PH of there mice's / rats water as a standard husbandry practice.They use a dilute sulphuric acid,such as would be used for lowering PH in Hydroponic nutrient solutions.
Some bird breeders / labs use vinegar for the same effect.(to lower PH).

Be careful using reverse osmosis water as the PH will drop right down without minerals in the tap water to counteract the acidity.

PH CAN BE RAISED back up with a small tad of a pinch of CALCIUM CARBONATE (rolaids..reptical..something similar).
The secret of using a stronger Graprfruit Seed Extract solution,say to encourage/obtain a health benefit,
may very well be in adjusting the ph, much as a hydroponic farmer would To keep PH within the desired range.

odor = bacteria= odor
Bacteria,for the most part, has a very hard time thriving in slightly acidic water,especially with the anti-bacterial / anti-fungal properties of the G.S.E..

 

[CowBoyWay]

Mice from hell a.k.a. parasite control in mice

MICE FROM HELL

Fleas, mites & worms

Why I thought you just threw them little suckers in a tub,forget about it,and next thing you know mice are spilling out all over place.Nothing to it.
There appears to be more involved apparently.
Proper husbandry of prey items is of KEY importance in the long term health of your captive reptiles.
Food grade Diatomaceous Earth, isn't dirt or earth, not even colored like it. It consists of the broken up shells of tiny critters, called diatomes, that lived long ago and died in groups so massive that they can, today, be mined and bull-dozed.

"DE", as it's abbreviated, has the neat quality of killing insects. It is 100% ecologically safe to the environment and non-poisonous to man and beast. In fact, if you've eaten anything made with flour (like Bisquick), you've eaten DE. So, how does it kill insects?

DE works by slicing open the exoskeleton (outer, hard covering) of insects, causing them to "bleed" to death. (Actually, their insides leak out, they dehydrate and die.) Imagine walking barefoot through a room that has millions of razorblades embedded in the floor. You've got the picture.

When DE is sprinkled around it slices and dices the insects that walk through it. And it won't hurt YOU when you ingest it, 'cause the 'sharp pieces' are too small to cut you.
In fact, many organic farmers deliberately mix DE with animal feed to kill internal parasites in farm animals,Usually 2% by weight.
(The DE in the animal feces even kills the fly maggots that invariably appear in the cow patties.)I throw a small
canfull out in the yard and my chickens love to take dust baths in it. They just love this stuff in the organic/natural foods industry.
I use a little sprinkle now and then in my mouse and snakes substrate as a
Preventive measure,repeat in three weeks to nail the next generation of mites that may have hatched.
Mite infestation can be a booger to recognize in early stages,as they're so very tiny.

I have earthworm beds and we sprinkle D.E. outside on top of the beds to kill parasitical mites on them instead of the traditional insecticide soaked burlap used by some worm ranchers.
I mix D.E. (2% by weight) into my bulk birdseed to keep the bugs out and keep my Parrotlets internally parasite free!

Be sure to use "FOOD GRADE" Diatomaceous Earth available from health food stores.
DO NOT use the swimming pool filter grade of D.E.,as that has a very high silica content and is dangerous to you
and your reptile.

A good and effective organic method to control them little buggers.

FREEZING MICE, to kill parasites;

Freezing fish at minus 4 degrees farenheit = minus 20 degree celcius, for 7 days will kill parasites and prevent illness, according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

A sushi site claims that In commercial freezing, a temperature of -40 °F kills any parasite in 15 hours and that in a home freezer, at 0° to 10°F, it can take up to five days to kill all the parasites, The raw fish people are probably right about this. imho

I assume this would also apply to parasites on / in mice

There is no problem with commercial freezers. Unfortunately, household refrigerator freezers generally cycle between 5 and 10 degree farenheit, so you've got to crank your home freezer down low to kill parasites, according to the F.D.A..

 

[MissHisssss]

A question for Cowboyway

So if I mix up a gallon of that grapeseed/vanilla drink for my mice but don't use it all right away.... or, if I were to mix up a five gallon batch of it to use on an automatic watering system once I get it put together.... how long do I have before it goes bad and must change it?

MissHisssss

 

[CowBoyWay]

G.S.E. will act as a preservative...

Grapefruit seed extract will provide an anti-bacterial quality to the solution and keep it safe for consumption.

The anti-bacterial quality doesn't dissapate out of solution.
People use G.S.E., instead of bleach, as a water "stabilizer" for long term storage of water in barrels / jugs to ensure purity as it prevents bacterial growths.
I would change/ freshen a covered water barrel / bucket source at least every couple of weeks (why not, what the heck) and perform a maintenance / inspection of equipment as required / desired to avoid "sticky valve syndrome".

Reverse osmosis water is commonly used with these systems to take the mineral buildup factor out of the equation.
PH correction of water source may be desirable as the g.s.e.will quickly
lower the ph without the competing calcium / mineral content in the water
that the R.O. process removes.

Be aware that natural Vanilla extract has been known to more readily clog / gum up valves (as compared to without it) and possibly drown the occupants with auto water systems, if sipper units are not maintained / cleaned regularly, or so I have read. The imatation extract of vanilla is better to use as it has less dissolved solids in it to accumulate in a valve.

Clorine bleach is the traditional sanitizer of choice for these systems.
Low parts per million (ppm) of chorine bleach is used as the the drinking water inline disinfectent, although I have heard that vinegar as a water stabilizing /acidifying/disinfectent agent is also used instead of bleach.

The simpler the water "sipper" valve, the less likely clogging becomes.
A glass tube sipper bottle would have to be seriously neglected before it would clog i.e. no moving parts.
Ball bearing units can and will gum up and stick on ya if you don't hot water clean / flush them on a regular basis.

An occasional sanitising Flush of the system is the norm with professional quality auto waterer systems (Edstoms),
and the quick removal style valves could be cleaned or simply exchanged every so often if you have extra valves available.
There are O-rings and other such things that may be prone to The vanilla "gumming up" in Edstrom style valves, I would imagine.

Bacterial growth should not be a problem in the lines (with G.S.E. present) so one should be able to flush with fresh hot water and degum the works if need be/ as needed without chemical sanitizers.
For good measure 10 - 30 drops per gallon of G.S.E. could be added to the flush as an occasional sanitizer to be positive you've killed any microbe that thinks it wants to live there.
30 drops will kill any microbe on the planet.
A little overkill, but if it makes you happy and your mice healthy...

"Gumming up the works" would be the major drawback to vanilla,
Not quite "set it and forget it", but darn close.

Here is a link to info on Edstrom auto waterer systems, they can get expensive to set up but many animal breeders love these automatic valve watering gizmos.
http://www.edstrom.com/products.cfm?doc_id=53

 

[Matt L]

Just a note on those of you new to automatic watering systems.

I maintain a large colony on auto water--Check you lines from time to time. I had a Breeder Rat get loose and chew a small hole in the line--It finally blew---I was lucky to only loose 4 trays of mice--all drowned and about 30 gallons of water on the floor.
My snake room resides behind my garage--I knew I had a problem when i pulled into my driveway and saw water running out from under the garage door. Until this had happened, the problem never crossed my mind, I guess I viewed it as reliable as my indoor house plumbing.

Matt L.

 

[carol]

Re: intellectually stimulating educational toys for mice

For example,you will be warned about the long term health implications of keeping mice on pine shavings.
My Swiss Webster mice are sent to mousee heaven at much too young of age to develop a long term pine shaving dust exposure related health problem

But wouldn't you be concerned about giving your snakes mice that have traces of pine oil/dust on them from being on pine shavings? It just doesn't seem like the best choice with all the alternative substrates out there.

 

[CowBoyWay]

A Very good point carol...

Your right, it's not the best choice.
And little mousee shower rooms / bathtubs probably wouldn't work out, i.e. forget to wash behind there ears...
What would you or others suggest that is both practical and affordable?
I have used Carefresh in the past, but found the cost objectionable, pretty pricey stuff, but it worked well. May have to bite the bullet on this one

I am currently re-evaluting all my substrate choices as it relates to this Guttata-Culture hobby, including mice bedding.

What substrate do most commercial mice breeders use for there mice?

Also anybody using a more traditional method and if they could describe there husbandry practices, feel free to jump in with both feet here, specifically
traditional ways to control the parasite load of mice would be of interest
and/ or the actual breeding of mice. Strains, sex ratios...

 

[Matt L]

Cowboy-
I use alfalfa pellets, they are more expensive than pine, but the alfalfa neutralizes the ammonia smell. This allows me to go up to 15 days without cleaning and still walk into the rack room without holding my breath. I was lucky to get 4 days out of the pine. The pellets also offer an alternative food source. I’m not sure what benefits they add as far as diet is concerned, but it certainly can’t hurt. It can be purchased at local feed stores for about $8.00 a 50 pound bag. I should add that I been using this for about a month now and no ill effects (mice or snakes). I would welcome any comments on other peoples experience with them.

Matt L.

 

[CowBoyWay]

I like pellets...

I used to keep bearded dragons on "rabbit Pellets" and also bred Madagascan Hissing Cockroaches (all gone now) and used pellets successfully. Thats why I liked it for my "Hisssers" was that the Pellets controlled the odor so well.
I'm going to pellets with my mice, and possibly with some of my Corns...

If you pour the pellets out in a large tub and shake it good, any loose alfalfa "powder" will settle out/downward and give you a more of a dust free pellet for use as a snake substrate.
Older store product tends to be dryed out and more prone to powder, at least here in the desert, buying at a feed store that sells lots of rabbit pellets will give you a fresher, newer product that still has its as packaged moisture content.
My feed store owner was telling me that its very rare for an alfalfa grower to spray pesticides on there fields as its not cost effective for them to do so and with its known end use as feed...

I'm going to miss you aspen, Dang you were cheap...

 

[kathylove]

GSE in water bowls

I have been using 25 drops of GSE PER GALLON when I fill snake waterbowls for the past year or so. (haven't tried it on the mice yet) I decided on that amount by the very scientific method of tasting it! That was about the most I could use without making the water taste really bad. I originally used more, but had some snakes get dehydrated - they didn't like it any better than I did. I haven't tested the water during the week to see how the treated water compares to untreated, but I feel it has to be helping.

I have been using vinegar to clean water bowls for some time. But the recent post of the vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, and GSE sounds interesting. I think I will try that as well.

I like trying various natural remedies and am always interested in hearing about new ones. Keep on sharing!

 

[CowBoyWay]

25 drops per gallon water of G.S.E., it's is a good thing :~)

Thats good to know that 25 drops has proven safe and effective for you.
Curious as to whether you have "hard" mineral rich water there in Florida?

Back Country Hikers and world travelers like this stuff too.

"GSE is ideal as a safe and simple way to disinfect drinking water when camping, back packing or in any emergency situation where safe drinking water is not obtainable, and boiling (or distilling) is not practical.

Available water should first be filtered. (At the very least, let suspended particles settle.)
Retain the clear water and
add 10 to 25 drops of grapefruit seed extract
(less for questionable tap water, more for stream or pond water)
for each one gallon of water.

Shake or stir vigorously and let sit for a few minutes. A slightly bitter taste may be noticed. This is just the inherent taste of the GSE...

"A little known secret for avoiding "Montezuma's Revenge" (loose bowels) when traveling is grapefruit seed extract.

Discovered in 1976 by an Einstein Laureate physicist and M.D.,
the natural antibiotic, antifungal, antiviral, antiprotozoan, antiseptic, and disinfectant properties are recognized and utilized throughout the world, especially in South America, Europe and the Far East.

As an investigator for the Department of Health and Human Services, Public health Service and the FDA, Dr. Louis Parish, M.D., reported that grapefruit seed extract,
"is as effective as any amebicide now available, perhaps more effective."."

http://www.herbalremedies.com/ovofgrapseed.html
http://www.herbalremedies.com/grapseedexth.html

I've decided to go with 10 drops per gallon of G.S.E. as an everyday snake water thing, and use a "Welcome to the neighborhood", while in quarantine dosage of 25-30 d.p.g. to initially "Clean them Up".

This G.S.E. is proving to be very non toxic tonic for everyday use.
The diverseness of use with this "stuff" is bordering on amazing, a new generation, naturally sourced, "Wonder Tonic".
It's not a drug so we can't call it a wonder drug, but sure does a good imitation of one
There was room, imho, for improvement over the old reliable standby, good ol tried and true, sometime fataly toxic side effects that the "usual suspect" treatment chemicals have a reputation of doing occasionally, especially with already sickened, immunocompromised (Corn) Snakes.

 

[dartguy]

HEY COWBOY!!!

do you own stock in GSE or sumthin'? Youre pushin it like your next meal depends on it.

just kiddin'

it really sound s like good stuff and I'm curious to try it for myself

 

[CowBoyWay]

Citrus extracts are cool...who new?

Yep, Grapefruit seed extract is a product with likely huge market growth potential.
Its many varied uses in various species including literally, Corn Snakes, humans, lions, tigers, and bears,...parrots ,mice...etc., are just being discovered everyday. It does so much, it's almost unbelievable.

Another unique bi- product of the fruit juice industry that has been discovered in the past ten years or so is Orange Peel Extract (Citrus Oil) that is an awesomely effective natural sourced insecticide.
It messes them bugs up by attacking there waxy lunged respiratory system by stripping /dewaxing there lungs, kinda, sorta.

Some mechanic in Texas, as the story goes, had a tub of a orange-peel based degreaser, waterless hand cleaner, that had melted down in the sun, so he walked over and poured it on a fire ant nest and lo and behold an industry was born, it killed them hard to kill fire ants with in a couple of days.
Those ants are legendary for being hard to kill.

These days, they sell bottled, ready made, orange peel extracts for yard and gardening insect control purposes.

I have Sulcatta tortoises, chickens, pot bellied pigs and dogs that like to occasionaly munch on my bermuda grass, so we keep it non-toxic to the pets when it comes to that outdoor creepy crawley control type thing.

We have orange trees, so we boil / brew up a pot of orange peels, strain them and then let sit overnight, skim the floating citrus oil with a turkey baster, a big ol squirt of Dr. Bonners peppermint soap and a wee bit of some liquid sea kelp and
hose end spray the yard, garden and trees as a flea, tick, general purpose insecticide/repellent.
One can refrigerate or freeze any surplus homemade orange oil.
It can put orange stains on cement if your not careful to hose off the cement before it totally dries.

 

[CowBoyWay]

Updated Grapefruit,vanilla and mice odor control Recipe

Use Natural vanilla for your mice, it's a good thing. Plus if you bake, it's in the cupboard
It's "Gourmet Mice" approved!

"Double Strength" Real Vanilla Extract is commonly available and would be an excellent choice for odor control applications.
Restaurant supply places sell it by the pint, quarts (liters) and gallons, it keeps very well, and will actualy "mellow", flavor wise, like a fine brandy/whiskey/wine would with time. Buying the little bottles of real vanilla add up dollar wise but a 4 oz. bottle will give ya 24-48 gallons.

So, lets see...
with 6 teaspoons to the liquid ounce,
and 128 ounces to the gallon.
So ...
1 teaspoon of standard strength vanilla extract per gallon of water should make 768 gallons of mousee cocktails from a gallon of Vanilla extract. Double that yield, if you wish, with the double strength product.

Watkins Spice company sells good and tasty, aromatic stuff by the gallon if you can't find it locally, I think they're worldwide distribution these days, maybe not though. They made an inspirational movie about Bill Porter and Watkins, this is a link to his site
http://www.watkinsonline.com/productGroup.cfm?parent=336D8C47-302F-11D4-90E000508BAC0FD1

My new updated recipe for
"Mouseee Cocktails" for the gang is:

1 teaspoon of
Double Strength (Watkins) vanilla extract with
10 drops of G.S.E.
to a gallon of water.
"mouse-tini's",
should be served shaken, not stirred

More vanilla or g.s.e. may very well be used if you like, your mileage may vary.

I'm having positive results in my mouse tubs with this odor control recipe and alfalfa pellets for a mouse substrate.

Vanilla Jargon words:
..."The word "fold" connotes concentration in liquid vanilla extracts and synthetics.
Single fold (written 1x) is the standard concentrate of pure vanilla extract. Double fold (2x) is twice as strong, and so forth.
Concentrations can go up to 20-fold, but the extract isn't real stable above four-fold"...


"Imitation vanilla is a mixture made from synthetic substances, which imitate part of natural vanilla smell and flavor.

Imitation vanilla in the United States comes from synthetic vanillin, which mimics the flavor of natural vanillin, one of the components that gives vanilla its extraordinary bouquet

One of the two most common sources for synthetic vanillin is Lignin Vanillin,
a by-product of the paper industry, which has been chemically treated to resemble the taste of pure vanilla extract.
Lignin vanillin is purified by an exclusive process resulting in a highly pure food grade product...
It's apparently the good imitation stuff.

http://www.lignin.info/vanillin.htm

The other most common is
Ethyl Vanillin,
which is a coal-tar derivative and frequently far stronger than either Lignin Vanillin or pure vanilla.

This is the bad stuff
Ethyl Vanillin = NOT a good thing imho.

Some countries are considering a ban on Ethyl Vanillin as a food additive, that may be the case by now.
Suspicions abound as to its villainy in certain acquired diseases. This stuff may possibly pop up as a ingredient in "cheapo" brands, if not banned already so beware. Ethyl Vanillin s on the shelf as the "bargain brand" locally here, so its currently F.D.A. approved
apparently.
When one bakes with it, (Ethyl Vannillin), it has a "bland" flavor anyways, compared to the others, so it's not even good for that.

In the 1930s, the Ontario Paper Company, was struggling with the sulphite liquor, a by-product of paper making, which was polluting local streams near their plant.
Company chemists realized it could be turned into synthetic vanillin, a viable but curious ecological solution to a big problem.

The popular, famous name brand Vanilla Extracts are not going to have the ethyl type in them , I'd would betcha.


url]http://www.vanilla.com/html/facts-extracts.html[/url]

Lignon type Imitation vanilla has been in use for a long time and is apparently safe for human consumption, (and mice). It's the kind that most people encounter in baked goodies.

I have not heard of any reports of adverse reactions using imitation Vanilla in mouse husbandry, and don't anticipate hearing so, this is just pure speculation about a potential problem with it.
Just touching all the bases, so to speak.

I like the price of imitation much better than the "Real Deal", but you can get some mileage out of this stuff if you want to.
As little as a half teaspoon of vanilla extract, without g.s.e., will work as a odor reduction agent, using the double strength stuff, if your not "into" that G.S.E "stuff.

Got to much information (t.m.i.) yet?
...Good!