Legitimate Reason Wanted

[SHAKSNAKE]

We all need to take a step back and think. The people who feed F/T, decide to feed that way because they do not want to see something horrible happen to their snake, like what happened to the one Tricksterpup has pictures of. The ones who feed live, do so for their own reasons, whether it is to save money or whatever their reasons. There are some people who will listen to reason and look at pictures and say, "OMG I didnt know that could happen" those tend to try to switch to F/T, I know I was one of them. Then you have the people that do not think it can happen to their animal until it does, they are then remorseful and ask for help, because their snakes bites just got infected. They learn the lesson the hard way.. But, then you have the people who feed live and never have a problem, they are the lucky ones.
I say, to each his own. We can try to educate people on the benefits of F/T, but if they are unwilling to listen, and look at the proof, then there is no point in harping on the subject every time it comes up. It is the same thing with co-habitation. I was guilty of it until I saw what can come of it. There are people who do it, and people who don't. Just try to educate people on the downfalls of it and if they want to listen they will, if they do not want to listen they won't. What happens to the snake is their problem, no matter how much you try to help, If they do not want it, they will not accept it.

glad to see you can at least accept it. i have a couple reasons why i feed live, and i don't feel like i have to explain myself to everyone. but mainly because its not in my area. very much out of the way. i have a petshop a walking distance away and they only have live.

i think an issue is that people automatically assume the worst of someone. like i said, im sure everyone who feeds live has their own reasons. and i dont think they need to come onto a forum to have to plead their case to some fake jury. who cares! jeez. a lot of us are adults and we have done our homework.

 

[Kali]

The trollish has nothing to do with your feeding live, it has to do with the way you announce it on here. You might not be online much, but even you must know by now it's a sensitive topic.
Some feel much for it, some feel much against. But this is a nice site, and if everybody starts being antagonistic about things they feel strongly about, it ruins the atmosphere.
I don't know about other people, but I was raised to respect other people.
And even if you don't respect somebody because of their opinions or actions, respect the others on here who come here to follow an interesting thread and not to see people fight.

The usual response to something like this is "I didn't start it". And indeed I have used that phrase before too... when I was 10 or something.

It might not be completely fair to direct this only to you (so whoever the shoe fits...) but you do seem to have started it. And that was not nessecary imo.

 

[Outcast]

glad to see you can at least accept it. i have a couple reasons why i feed live, and i don't feel like i have to explain myself to everyone. but mainly because its not in my area. very much out of the way. i have a petshop a walking distance away and they only have live.

i think an issue is that people automatically assume the worst of someone. like i said, im sure everyone who feeds live has their own reasons. and i dont think they need to come onto a forum to have to plead their case to some fake jury. who cares! jeez. a lot of us are adults and we have done our homework.

You would be surprised at just how many people do not do their homework and do come on the forums to ask about injuries to their snakes and how we as snake people would go about treating it, usually those are people who cannot afford a vet visit or the vet has no idea how to treat reptiles, and there are people here who would give vets a run for their money in the knowledge area on reptiles.

 

[SHAKSNAKE]

Kali i get what your saying. i'm not out here to offend anyone. i'm just defending us responsible live feeders! all 4 of us! hahaha.
no but seriously, i wouldn't mind feeding f/t. i'll consider it if this petshop ever carries them. till then, its live.

too bad i won't be able to post any videos about it!

 

[wax32]

Pros of Live

• Cheaper if you have a lot of snakes. WHAT??
  

Cons of Live

• Can get expensive going to a local store to buy live if you are only buying for a few snakes. Even more expensive if you are buying for a lot of snakes, unless you know a mouse breeder and can get wholesale prices from him.
• It only takes a MILLISECOND for a mouse to bite a snake eye.

Pros of F/T

• If you only have one or two snakes or even more it can be cheaper. - Even cheaper if you have a LOT of snakes, you can buy in serious bulk so the shipping per mouse isn't bad.
• NO risk of prey harming snake.

Cons of F/T

• Can take up a lot of freezer space. That's what cheap chest freezers are made for!
• If you do not have a local supplier than shipping costs can be high, unless you can find someone to split the cost with. Not really see above.
• If ordering through the mail (rodent pro, mice direct etc) then you dont always know what you are getting and can get some bad surprises. This one is true, but reputable dealers fix problems.
• Two words. Power Outage. One word: GENERATOR, good idea to have one if you don't have frozen mice.
• If your snake decides it does not want to eat then you are stuck with a rodent you just wasted, unless you are lucky enough to have another you can feed it to. I'm lucky enough to have LOTS that will eat a second item.
  

BOLD text are my responses.

I did not read this big thread, so I'm sorry if my points were already made. Needless to say I voted F/T. I only feed live if the prey item doesn't have teeth yet and the snake hasn't started eating F/T yet.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

I don't see how it's cheaper if you have a lot of snakes. You can raise/breed your own mice/whatever... then kill them and give them to the snake. No problem. It's like what, an extra ten seconds to do that? And it prevents your $600 snake from getting killed. Even if the store near you sells only live, kill the mouse yourself. It's not hard.

It all boils down to whether or not someone is willing to risk the life of their snake unnecessarily. You can't get around that fact.

 

[Lolo]

This is such a shame. Finally there was a thread about live vs F/T that remained quite civil, and (not sure this expression exists in english, but I think you get the meaning) Shaksnake you threw the stick in the henhouse. That badly thought out reply that can hardly count as a pro (even for live feeders) really sounds trollish to me.

Really? I didn't see it that way... his post made perfect sense to me, and didn't seem trollish at all. But what do I know? :shrugs:

 

[Lolo]

We all need to take a step back and think. The people who feed F/T, decide to feed that way because they do not want to see something horrible happen to their snake, like what happened to the one Tricksterpup has pictures of.

I will bet money that snake was left ALONE with a rat for an EXTENDED period of time... am I right, Tricksterpup? I am perfectly aware of what can happen with an unsupervised live feeding, but responsible owners like myself don't do that - and the chances of a horrible injury during a carefully supervised feeding are pretty slim.

When I feed live the mouse/rat is dropped in, I watch and wait about 5 minutes, and then it's removed if the snake doesn't take it. I've been doing this for almost 2 years now, and nobody's been bitten or injured yet. Go to my ball python forum, where live feeding is more common (due to the picky nature of BPs), and most will say the same. We have large-scale breeders on that forum who only feed live, and nobody's lost a snake because of it - maybe a little nick here & there, but even those are rare!

So while I still wish all of my snakes would take f/t, I'm also not worried about my snakes dying from a rodent bite... as I don't put them in a situation where that could happen. I even choose to feed my BPs multiple mice instead of 1 rat (with the exception of Rosalind, who refuses mice), since I figure their teeth are less of a threat. I'll also remove & return any "crazy" rodents, if I think they might cause stress or injury to my snake. You can be responsible and feed live, or the breeders I know with collections of 100+ wouldn't still be doing it.

 

[Lolo]

Btw, the only "legitimate reason" I need was proven earlier this week... I couldn't make it to the store for my usual Tuesday live feedings, so I decided to go ahead and try f/t with the ball pythons. I thawed a total of eight mice and one rat, and guess how many were eaten? TWO - and both were taken by the same snake. I ended up having to re-freeze a few, and passed off what I could to the corns (who'd just eaten 3 days earlier). Sorry, but that's a waste of my time & money, and I was left with a whole bunch of hungry snakes. You might call live feeding irresponsible, but I think starving a snake is even more irresponsible.

And yes, I've tried all the tricks to convert my BPs & live-only corn... braining, heating, paper bags, doing the zombie dance, etc. Some snakes are just not going to take f/t, and with BPs in particular their pickiness can be life-threatening. I had one who didn't eat for nine months, because apparently she only wanted an ASF - which are illegal here in California. I finally got my hands on a few, and luckily she went back to normal prey after that.

 

[Christen]

Ok I know I have head problems but I don't understand the f/t con of power outage. Does this imply keeping the mice frozen or lack of way to warm mice? Do power outages happen that often in other places? I guess I mostly don't understand cause we have never had the power go out long enough that food in the fridge goes bad and I am sure that the snakes could wait till the the power comes back on to eat, if it is the warming issue. :shrugs:

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Lolo, you can't really just throw in a thawed mouse one time and call that a good try. When snakes are used to taking live, it can take a long time to convert them. Though I realize that some never take prekilled foods, trying once really doesn't count as attempting to convert.

 

[Lolo]

Can get expensive going to a local store to buy live if you are only buying for a few snakes. Even more expensive if you are buying for a lot of snakes, unless you know a mouse breeder and can get wholesale prices from him.

Most people with large collections breed their own mice, so price isn't really a factor whether they're feeding live or f/t. I was breeding my own mice for a while, but had to stop when I moved into a smaller place... smelled too darned much for this apartment. I will start breeding again if/when I move somewhere more appropriate, as it does get expensive with a collection of 30!

 

[Lolo]

Lolo, you can't really just throw in a thawed mouse one time and call that a good try. When snakes are used to taking live, it can take a long time to convert them. Though I realize that some never take prekilled foods, trying once really doesn't count as attempting to convert.

Did you read the rest of my post?? Might have edited that as you were responding, LOL. I said I'd tried everything, and have done so multiple times... trust me, BPs aren't as easy to convert as your typical corn. I see you don't have any pythons, so you can't understand how picky they are!

 

[VickyChaiTea]

No, but I manage 6 ball pythons, one boa, and 6 corn snakes (3 at my home) since I work at a pet store. Only one of those snakes eats live. The rest all take frozen/thawed or freshly killed no problem. 4 even came to me being used to live foods (all ball pythons) 3 of the 4 took frozen/thawed right away. One took 2 weeks, then ate frozen/thawed. I realize that pythons can be pickier, but that doesn't mean that they HAVE to have live, or that even a majority will only take live.

 

[Lolo]

No, but I manage 6 ball pythons, one boa, and 6 corn snakes (3 at my home) since I work at a pet store. Only one of those snakes eats live. The rest all take frozen/thawed or freshly killed no problem. 4 even came to me being used to live foods (all ball pythons) 3 of the 4 took frozen/thawed right away. One took 2 weeks, then ate frozen/thawed. I realize that pythons can be pickier, but that doesn't mean that they HAVE to have live, or that even a majority will only take live.

Well, then I must have a group of particularly picky ones... and to be quite honest, I don't have the time & money to keep wasting prey. Mine prefer live, I don't mind providing it to them, and I do so in a safe and responsible manner. I don't really care if anyone has a problem with that, since they're my snakes to care for - and we're all quite happy with the current arrangement. I respect other people's feeding procedures, even those I don't agree with (like separate feeding tubs), so why not respect mine? My snakes are obviously healthy, extremely loved, and you can't tell me otherwise.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

"so why not respect mine? " Because yours involve putting your snakes at risk, potentially without a good reason.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Wish I could edit posts.

"so why not respect mine? " Because yours involve putting your snakes at risk, potentially without a good reason. I could understand if ALL of them would only take live, but that's statistically most likely not the case.

 

[Lolo]

Wish I could edit posts.

You can if you make a contribution... hint hint.

"so why not respect mine? " Because yours involve putting your snakes at risk, potentially without a good reason. I could understand if ALL of them would only take live, but that's statistically most likely not the case.

I have my reasons, and as I stated earlier, the risks are VERY minimal with proper supervision... how many examples can you find of rodent-related deaths from supervised feedings? It's a matter of risk assessment too, and weighing the small chance of injury against the benefits - which in my case include having snakes eat consistently, thus saving myself money, and saving them stress and/or hunger.

Every situation in life requires this kind of "pro vs con," even when it comes to things we do every day. I know I'm taking a risk every time I get in the car, but would rather take that chance than be stuck at home 24/7. And when I lived in the ghetto, I basically risked my life whenever I walked my dog - but what kind of life would he have without walks, especially since we didn't have a yard? It's not like I'm keeping my snakes loose in the house, we're talking about feeding live prey... which people and snakes have done for centuries, so I assume the overall risk vs benefit is a reasonable one.

P.S. Each snake who takes f/t consistently gets f/t... so what am I doing wrong exactly? I'm not insisting on feeding live to the frozen-eaters, so you can't say I deny anyone the chance.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Well getting in a car is almost always necessary. Feeding live isn't. There is a big difference. I have no problem feeding snakes that will only take live live, I don't think anyone does. I just have an issue with people who feed snakes that take prekilled foods live.

And honestly, why even bother taking the risk? Sure, having the snake get KILLED by food is less likely when supervised, but having the snake get injured is not. And all injuries can become infected, injuries to the eye and mouth can be particularly serious. Why take that risk? It only take s few seconds to thwack a mouse against something, killing it instantly, and saving your snake from potential harm.

 

[Lolo]

To you it's not worth the risk, but to some people apparently it is... I'm on the fence I guess, since I prefer f/t but have no issue with feeding live either. Regardless, I still think each owner has the right to decide for themselves (without being harassed over it).

And to be completely honest, there's no way I could pre-kill the mouse myself - I simply don't have the stomach for it. I know that's a little hypocritical, but it's the truth! Of course I'd do that if I HAD to, but it would definitely be a last resort.