wstphal
working in the Gulag
Not a troll, has been here a while & participates in discussions & doesn't start fights. I think it's a legitimate desire to get input from the folks here.
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Legitimate Reason Wanted
- Thread starter Stormy
- Start date
Not a troll, has been here a while & participates in discussions & doesn't start fights. I think it's a legitimate desire to get input from the folks here.
Kali
lost cause
No, in case of the big predators, it would be overdoing it. Smaller animals yes, especially when the feeders are insects, they are regularly used as part of an enrichment.
Actually, toys are given to the octopus, food enrichment to the piranha's and clicker training to the komodo dragon, also a form of enrichment.
In any case I'm not saying an enrichment is nessecary for these animals or for snakes, but I can agree when the OP calls it a mental stimulus.
I also said in that same paragraph that you could use decoration for that use, should you feel the need for some enrichment.
Wether the animal would benefit from it, or completely doesn't care, is another discussion.
Thank you both very much for sharing this! I may have missed it before, but this are the first actual stories of injuries from supervised live feeding I have ever read. You always hear/see the "snake left overnight with mouse/rat" stories/pics. Maybe because they're more horrible...?
Snakehead
Bite Me! It's ok
I also had a close call, where the mouse turned and started biting close to the eye of a snake. I freaked and quickly thumped the mouse on the head with my finger. I have big hands, lol. Can you imagine if a snake gets bit on an eye? This becomes more important when your dealing with snakes that cost 2 or 3 hundred dollars! A mouse bite on the body of a snake is probably no big deal. It's the eyes and mouth that are suseptable to infection.
I ticked both, but in reality, i fed fresh killed more often than not...
sometimes a new hatched will not take f/t so a warm fresh killed pinky is ideal.
I did find that, if fed on rat pinks/fuzzies for a long period made my corns reluctant to take mouse pinks/fuzzies so a mixed diet proved to be both better for the corns and easier for me to mange as i would breed rats, mice, hampster and gerbil....
sometimes a new hatched will not take f/t so a warm fresh killed pinky is ideal.
I did find that, if fed on rat pinks/fuzzies for a long period made my corns reluctant to take mouse pinks/fuzzies so a mixed diet proved to be both better for the corns and easier for me to mange as i would breed rats, mice, hampster and gerbil....
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
From Kali
This is exactly how I felt about it.
From wstphal
Thanks for this! It means a lot! Granted this is the first time in my many years of going to forums I have been called a troll. It makes me want to dress up as one for halloween!
From Nanci
This is exactly how I felt about it.
From wstphal
Thanks for this! It means a lot! Granted this is the first time in my many years of going to forums I have been called a troll. It makes me want to dress up as one for halloween!
From Nanci
That blows. Reason I asked is because like I voted on the poll, we do both. And I do want to get into breeding snakes. I also realize people have different desires on if they feed f/t or live. So I want my snakes to be able to eat both. I have one corn that I swear she has the appetite of a king snake and will eat anything we put in there, including going for my hands the first week we had her!
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
Gah! I accidently clicked the post button before I was done. On the snake that we have that will eat anything. I bought her from Home Grown Herps in July at Repticon here and they also told me she was fed on both f/t and live. The only thing they did do that I dont like is they breed her. And she was only 189grams when I bought her home.
I feed predominately F/T. If I have a hatchling who is not eating, then I will try live with them, but would always try to convert them to F/T. I just worry about putting adult/hopper mice in with adult snakes (my adult boy happily eats F/T) due to possible injuries. I suppose if I ever had to I'd stun the mouse first and I'd certainly supervise constantly.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I feed mainly f/t but breed mice and asf. I use the pelleted horse bedding called "ABM" or "dry den" and aspen (They usually pick out the aspen to line their nests) when they get smelly its time to clean the cage... I personally find the different colors and types of mouse morph almost as much fun to breed as snakes. You can see the results of your genetic mixes much faster as well!
There is the occasional corn snake hatchling that won' take f/t. I also have adults and juveniles that only take live. I certainly prefer feeding frozen and I don't need to breed a whole lot of rodents to keep the few stubborn snakes fed. When I feed live I keep a vigil on the snake until I'm sure the mouse is dead - I have had to thump them on the head while being constricted or slip a flat butter knife between mouse and snake to avoid a snake getting bitten. Kind of like the tongue depressor Susan uses... The snakes that take live I continue to try to switch to f/t. I do try to pick the ones that take f/t most readily to hold back as breeders.
There is the occasional corn snake hatchling that won' take f/t. I also have adults and juveniles that only take live. I certainly prefer feeding frozen and I don't need to breed a whole lot of rodents to keep the few stubborn snakes fed. When I feed live I keep a vigil on the snake until I'm sure the mouse is dead - I have had to thump them on the head while being constricted or slip a flat butter knife between mouse and snake to avoid a snake getting bitten. Kind of like the tongue depressor Susan uses... The snakes that take live I continue to try to switch to f/t. I do try to pick the ones that take f/t most readily to hold back as breeders.
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
I don't know if my reason for feeding F/T as opposed to live or F/K is considered a "legitimate" reason, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person out there who is philosophically or morally opposed to feeding anything other than F/T. I've always loved snakes, but it wasn't until I learned that I had that option that I actually got one. I recently gave away my favorite corn snake because he refused to switch over to F/T from Live.
I don't want to kill, and I don't want to put a rodent into a snake cage for the snake to kill. I am not convinced that the rodent doesn't suffer, and I don't want to be part of that on my end. I'll let the rodent raisers do my killing for my snakes, just like I let the slaughterhouses kill the chicken I eat for dinner.
Please do not ridicule my reasons or decisions in this area. If you prefer to feed live or f/k, that's up to you, and I don't judge you for it. I would expect the same from you.
I don't want to kill, and I don't want to put a rodent into a snake cage for the snake to kill. I am not convinced that the rodent doesn't suffer, and I don't want to be part of that on my end. I'll let the rodent raisers do my killing for my snakes, just like I let the slaughterhouses kill the chicken I eat for dinner.
Please do not ridicule my reasons or decisions in this area. If you prefer to feed live or f/k, that's up to you, and I don't judge you for it. I would expect the same from you.
WingedSweetheart
New member
I only feed my snakes f/t. One of my snakes I don't even think would know what to do with a live mouse. I tried the zombie dance with her to see if she would strike and constrict and she just sat there and looked at it until I put it down and let her eat it.
I also don't feed live because I don't like to kill. I even feel guilty killing spiders and such in my house and will avoid it if possible (catch and release). But that doesn't make me a vegan! I don't have a problem with killing for food. I just can't bring myself to do it personally.
The one and only time I ever fed a snake live was when my boyfriend and his friends went mouse shopping for my kingsnake (only snake at the time). They brought home a live mouse because they thought it would be cool to watch the snake kill it. I really think there is something wrong with people who enjoy watching animals suffer.
My last reason for not feeding live or even fresh killed is that I would have to breed them myself. I had one rat in the past which wasn't so bad. But after she died I got two mice. One was a boy and one was a girl. My mom wouldn't get me another cage or take me to a store to get another cage (our "big" town is an hours drive). So we had a litter of 3 babies. I did not know mice could get pregnant again within a few days of giving birth! As the mom was nursing her first litter she was getting fat with a second. Just as the first litter opened their eyes and was able to eat on their own, mama gave birth to 12 more babies! So I had a lot of mice for a while. I did manage to finally get more cages and separate the boys and girls. But I felt like I was constantly cleaning and feeding, that I didn't enjoy them anymore and it was a chore to take care of them all. I gave a bunch away and all the ones I kept had to be put down due to cancer (they got huge tumors).
Right now the only rodent that I own is a rabbit and though she does use a litter pan she still poops in other places too if I don't watch her like a hawk. She chews everything up too if I don't watch her. So she mainly live in her cage (litter pan is in there too) and I get her out several times a day to play. I used to fill her cage with pine shavings. It was a pain to take the cage apart and dump it. Once she started using the litter pan I just put the shavings there. But I still had to dump that and bunny pee smells so bad! Now I use feline pine or the corn kind that clumps. But I still have to scoop the litter everyday or it stinks.
Then there is food. My rabbit eats timothy hay. I am allergic to timothy hay. My rabbit lives in my bedroom. For the past 5 years I haven't been able to breath through my nose when I am in my bedroom. But I am willing to suffer that. But I do spend a lot of money on her food as she eats constantly. I've done vowed that once my rabbit dies that I will never own another rodent again. They smell and are messy and I have to constantly clean up after them to make it all some what bearable.
So these are my personal reasons why I feed f/t.
I also don't feed live because I don't like to kill. I even feel guilty killing spiders and such in my house and will avoid it if possible (catch and release). But that doesn't make me a vegan! I don't have a problem with killing for food. I just can't bring myself to do it personally.
The one and only time I ever fed a snake live was when my boyfriend and his friends went mouse shopping for my kingsnake (only snake at the time). They brought home a live mouse because they thought it would be cool to watch the snake kill it. I really think there is something wrong with people who enjoy watching animals suffer.
My last reason for not feeding live or even fresh killed is that I would have to breed them myself. I had one rat in the past which wasn't so bad. But after she died I got two mice. One was a boy and one was a girl. My mom wouldn't get me another cage or take me to a store to get another cage (our "big" town is an hours drive). So we had a litter of 3 babies. I did not know mice could get pregnant again within a few days of giving birth! As the mom was nursing her first litter she was getting fat with a second. Just as the first litter opened their eyes and was able to eat on their own, mama gave birth to 12 more babies! So I had a lot of mice for a while. I did manage to finally get more cages and separate the boys and girls. But I felt like I was constantly cleaning and feeding, that I didn't enjoy them anymore and it was a chore to take care of them all. I gave a bunch away and all the ones I kept had to be put down due to cancer (they got huge tumors).
Right now the only rodent that I own is a rabbit and though she does use a litter pan she still poops in other places too if I don't watch her like a hawk. She chews everything up too if I don't watch her. So she mainly live in her cage (litter pan is in there too) and I get her out several times a day to play. I used to fill her cage with pine shavings. It was a pain to take the cage apart and dump it. Once she started using the litter pan I just put the shavings there. But I still had to dump that and bunny pee smells so bad! Now I use feline pine or the corn kind that clumps. But I still have to scoop the litter everyday or it stinks.
Then there is food. My rabbit eats timothy hay. I am allergic to timothy hay. My rabbit lives in my bedroom. For the past 5 years I haven't been able to breath through my nose when I am in my bedroom. But I am willing to suffer that. But I do spend a lot of money on her food as she eats constantly. I've done vowed that once my rabbit dies that I will never own another rodent again. They smell and are messy and I have to constantly clean up after them to make it all some what bearable.
So these are my personal reasons why I feed f/t.
VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
"Snakes do eat live in the wild" Snakes are also allowed to run away if their food turns on them. In captivity, they do not have that luxury.
"Slight possibility of injury if not supervised. " Slight? I know there aren't any statistics out there about how likely it is that your snake will be injured but even if there where, how likely would the chances have to be for you to care? 20%? 50%? To me, that's just wrong. It's very easy to feed snakes prekilled foods, most take it with no problem. I know that others absolutely will NOT take prekilled foods, though. Which is a shame but something that just happens, and there is no problem with feeding those kinds of snakes live.
But others take prekilled. And it's perfectly possible to feed prekilled foods, even if you breed/raise your own mice.
The way I see it is feed your snake who already takes prekilled foods live food and put it's LIFE in danger... or change your ways just a little bit and feed prekilled foods and your snake gets to eat safely. I think anyone who truly cares about their snake will feed prekilled foods. It sounds a little harsh, but it's true.
Many snakes constrict prekilled food, so stimulation isn't an issue. If you want your snake to get more stimulation or exercise, take it out and let it roam around a snake proof area or hold it. Simple as that. It's not like feeding live is the ONLY way to stimulate a reptile.
"Slight possibility of injury if not supervised. " Slight? I know there aren't any statistics out there about how likely it is that your snake will be injured but even if there where, how likely would the chances have to be for you to care? 20%? 50%? To me, that's just wrong. It's very easy to feed snakes prekilled foods, most take it with no problem. I know that others absolutely will NOT take prekilled foods, though. Which is a shame but something that just happens, and there is no problem with feeding those kinds of snakes live.
But others take prekilled. And it's perfectly possible to feed prekilled foods, even if you breed/raise your own mice.
The way I see it is feed your snake who already takes prekilled foods live food and put it's LIFE in danger... or change your ways just a little bit and feed prekilled foods and your snake gets to eat safely. I think anyone who truly cares about their snake will feed prekilled foods. It sounds a little harsh, but it's true.
Many snakes constrict prekilled food, so stimulation isn't an issue. If you want your snake to get more stimulation or exercise, take it out and let it roam around a snake proof area or hold it. Simple as that. It's not like feeding live is the ONLY way to stimulate a reptile.
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
We do take our snakes out, pretty much every single day unless they are digesting their meals.
Saying I dont care about my snakes because I choose to feed them live is a bit harsh. No one can say one way or another how another person feels about their animals unless they are there in person and know that individual well. And I can say only one person on this forum has met me in person and it was only for a few minutes.
Saying I dont care about my snakes because I choose to feed them live is a bit harsh. No one can say one way or another how another person feels about their animals unless they are there in person and know that individual well. And I can say only one person on this forum has met me in person and it was only for a few minutes.
VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
Well, you have to see it from my point of view. A person has an animal they know will take prekilled foods. They feed it live anyway, even though they KNOW it puts the life of their snake in danger... why would they do something like that? If they really cared about the safety of their pet, they wouldn't even take the unnecessary risk of feeding live. Is it because it's more convenient for the owner? Well that's pretty selfish. Is it because they get some kind of joy out of seeing it? That's pretty twisted. Is it because they just don't care? That shows that they aren't doing things that are in the SNAKES best interest.
carol
Down with the sickness
I haven't read the entire thread, but here are my first thoughts....
A mouse attack isn't going to be OK just because you are watching. Substantial damage can be done faster than you can ever intercede.
I like Desertanimals post. Just because you are good at it doesn't mean you won't eventually obtain an injury.
Live mice also have a greater risk of carrying parasites. Which is a con big enough to deserve a spot on the list.
Why would you take those risks if you didn't have to?
A mouse attack isn't going to be OK just because you are watching. Substantial damage can be done faster than you can ever intercede.
I like Desertanimals post. Just because you are good at it doesn't mean you won't eventually obtain an injury.
Live mice also have a greater risk of carrying parasites. Which is a con big enough to deserve a spot on the list.
Why would you take those risks if you didn't have to?
Fatman608
I'm Hungry
wyteboi
New member
Personally we use frozen thawed mice because we can stock them in the freezer and they're ready on hand. It's convenient, a lot more so than if we had to run down to the pet store every week for some live ones. Also, f/t is more economical than live ones (go figure considering you don't have to feed a dead mouse). We aren't opposed to live feeding, just it's not how we choose to feed our snakes. Previously Daniel had other snakes that he did feed live to, and it got pricey. So this time when we decided to use f/t. That doesn't mean we will -never- use live mice. We recently got a few snakes in that we suspect have been fed life just by the way they attack the mouse when we give it to them. Also, if we have a snake that simply won't take f/t sure we'll figure give it live.
Brooke
Brooke
wyteboi
New member
we'll give it life.. is what that was supposed to be.
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
Please stop the personal attacks. It is childish and getting old. Fast.
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
I started this thread to ask for personal information from others. And instead its turned into personal attacks against myself and how I care for my animals. Frankly the attitude of some people on these forums is very disappointing. I didnt start it to flame, I started it to find out peoples personal experiences.
Now I know for future reference asking questions to find out peoples personal experiences is pointless and the attitude of some is really making me wonder if I should bother becoming a contributing member to this forum or even keep coming. I mean seriously.
People can discuss what they want in this thread but im done with it. I learned a few things from people who answered honestly. And to those people thank you for understanding why I started this thread.
Stormy
Now I know for future reference asking questions to find out peoples personal experiences is pointless and the attitude of some is really making me wonder if I should bother becoming a contributing member to this forum or even keep coming. I mean seriously.
People can discuss what they want in this thread but im done with it. I learned a few things from people who answered honestly. And to those people thank you for understanding why I started this thread.
Stormy
wstphal
working in the Gulag
Stormy, I hope you don't go. Personally, I am opposed to live feeding because I consider it too risky for MY snakes. I've been fanged by rats & mice & gerbils & hamsters & they can all inflict really bad bites that definitely get infected. Ugh. BUT I'm not going to flame you for feeding live as long as you are right there with the tongue depressor if it's needed. I am just worried about the wellbeing of the snakes. I said the same thing on the "perfect strike" thread -- as long as you are super, super careful, and you are aware of the risks, hey, it's your snake and I'm not going to flame you. You don't strike me as a sadist who enjoys watching mice suffer, and you're not ignorant now, if you ever were, of the risks of LEAVING a live rodent with your snake.