Live Feeding

[starsevol]

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one.

Other pets are not expected to do so because we've domesticated them, whereas it would virtually be impossible with reptiles, given their lack of cognitive skills. These are animals that are practically all instinct-driven, as I see it.

I'll grant you, however, that they are "kept" animals, and most keepers would prefer the safety of their animals over the desire to maintain their "wild" behaviors.

regards,
jazz

Exactly, but Jazz, even though they are instinct-driven, they are pets that can easily thrive without killing. Lions and tigers (and bears, oh my!) in zoos are also instinct driven, but keepers don't toss zebras in the cage every few weeks.
I have a theory that the general public sees snakes as "not real pets" because of the silly notion that they "need" to kill their food.

 

[starsevol]

Point of clarification: By "pets", I'm referring to the cat and dog examples previously cited in starsevol prior post. Those species are domesticated.

I won't say the same for pet birds, insects, etc.

There. Covered my keester.

regards,
jazz

LOL!
I think that with the incredible color morphs being created, and the cornsnake registry where you can trace the bloodline of your animal, even though snakes aren't truly domesticated, those 2 things might help the general population start to see snakes as legitimate pets.

I also think that the idea that snakes HAVE to kill their food, to many people, makes them appear monsters to be feared and killed at every opportunity.

 

[jazzgeek]

Lions and tigers (and bears, oh my!) in zoos are also instinct driven, but keepers don't toss zebras in the cage every few weeks.

Perhaps, but not to the same degree as reptiles. There was a bear at the Milwaukee County Zoo that was notorious for holding up its rear paws with its fore paws, thus looking like a Hustler centerfold. The crowds gathering around the open-air enclosure (sounds contradictory, I know) would crack up and toss marshmallows to the bear, thus giving the animal a treat and reinforcing the behavior. Condition, response....condition, response....to the point of the bear actually needing dental work from the cavities.

No snake would be capable of illiciting such a response from people, given the general fear of snakes, but more importantly, because they don't have the cognitive abilities to "train us".

On top of that, they wouldn't act so slutty.

I'd LOVE to hear from desertanimal (Stephanie) in this thread, given her primatologist education.

I have a theory that the general public sees snakes as "not real pets" because of the silly notion that they "need" to kill their food.

I'll add "the cultural fear of snakes" to that as well.

regards,
jazz

 

[starsevol]

Oh YES, the cultural fear of snakes as well as the religious beliefs of some people most certainly add to it!

 

[HaisseM]

Without further hijacking this thread... :-offtopic My problem doesn't come from the whole natural unnatural or instinct vs non-instinctive

its comes from comments like this

This is just my opinion here, but anyone who would deliberately and purposely inflict pain and suffering on an animal (even "just" a mouse) for NO REASON, is a sadistic monster and should be cited for animal cruelty.

and like this

We LOVE our snakes here, and the idea that someone is purposely putting them at risk, for no other reason than "because I want to" is a bit infuriating and says alot about not only what kind of pet owner you are, but what kind of person.

These are snipes made towards me because of my difference of opinion not because anybody actually knows me. This is what gets annoying

 

[batwrangler]

If you're going to choose to feed it a live mouse, there are a couple things to look out for.

4. Another thing you can do is at least lower the consciousness of the mouse (hold it by the tail and knock it against the wall a couple of times so its disoriented)

Stunning the mouse in this way seems entirely pointless: If you're giving your snake a stunned mouse, you might as well just give it a frozen/thawed mouse instead, which is also more humane for BOTH the snake and the mouse.

 

[HaisseM]

Stunning the mouse in this way seems entirely pointless: If you're giving your snake a stunned mouse, you might as well just give it a frozen/thawed mouse instead, which is also more humane for BOTH the snake and the mouse.

It's not pointless, the point behind it is, since their is a fear of the mouse/rat attacking the snake, by helping to disorient the mouse/rat you give your snake a better chance of not being attacked, without having to worry if the f/t mouse is at an acceptable temperature.

 

[ssmith_1187]

without having to worry if the f/t mouse is at an acceptable temperature.

I serve mine up between 102-105 degree Fahrenheit, as measured by my trusty kitchen thermometer.

Using a thermometer...I don't worry

Regards,
Steve

P.S. I will add that I have never had a refusal with my method.

 

[starsevol]

Without further hijacking this thread... :-offtopic My problem doesn't come from the whole natural unnatural or instinct vs non-instinctive

its comes from comments like this



and like this



These are snipes made towards me because of my difference of opinion not because anybody actually knows me. This is what gets annoying

In the first quote, I stated that it was "just my opinion".
You do understand what that means, don't you?

In the second quote, from an altogether different thread, virtually EVERYONE ELSE who responded agreed with me!

And my opinions in both quotes still stands!


I have been keeping corns for 11 years, and breeding on and off for 9. Compared to MANY others on this site, I know NOTHING and readily admit it.
If my husbandry practices were questionable, and someone who knows alot more than I do told me about all the risks of what I was doing and suggested a way to improve the lives of my animals, would I listen?? If I love my animals, HELL YES I WOULD! I wouldn't pawn myself off as some kind of expert and say well, risk is a part of life, and besides, I know what I'm doing!

I'm no "messiah", and won't ever claim to be!

 

[batwrangler]

It's not pointless, the point behind it is, since their is a fear of the mouse/rat attacking the snake, by helping to disorient the mouse/rat you give your snake a better chance of not being attacked, without having to worry if the f/t mouse is at an acceptable temperature.

A better way to ensure the mouse is the proper temperature and prevent damage to the snake while being as humane as possible to the mouse would be fresh-killing the mouse through cervical dislocation.

Banging the mouse against the wall to stun it is needlessly cruel to the mouse.

FWIW my snakes strike and constrict f/t prey as long as I offer it in tongs and give it a little shake, so the one possible benefit of "exercising" the snake doesn't apply.

 

[starsevol]

Stunning the mouse in this way seems entirely pointless: If you're giving your snake a stunned mouse, you might as well just give it a frozen/thawed mouse instead, which is also more humane for BOTH the snake and the mouse.

Somehow, I get the feeling that being "humane" is really not a concern here.

 

[ssmith_1187]

FWIW my snakes strike and constrict f/t prey as long as I offer it in tongs and give it a little shake

Roxanne has literally snatched the tweezers from my hands she has struck a F/T mouse so hard.

And she's a small snake.

Regards,
Steve

 

[HaisseM]

A better way to ensure the mouse is the proper temperature and prevent damage to the snake while being as humane as possible to the mouse would be fresh-killing the mouse through cervical dislocation.

Banging the mouse against the wall to stun it is needlessly cruel to the mouse.

FWIW my snakes strike and constrict f/t prey as long as I offer it in tongs and give it a little shake, so the one possible benefit of "exercising" the snake doesn't apply.

So I just looked up Cervical dislocation, and I have to say that's nasty. I don't even think I could touch a mouse/rat long enough to do that. I have a hard enough time holding the tail and knocking it against the wall.

As far as being cruel to the mouse, to be honest the mouse is food to my snake, I'm not worried about being "Cruel" to it.

I don't really like to bang the head of the mouse/rat to be honest, its just an extra precaution I take when feeding live

 

[ssmith_1187]

I don't even think I could touch a mouse/rat long enough to do that.

I'll let you in on a little secret...if they're F/T...they don't move, squeal or scratch :grin01:

Regards,
Steve

 

[batwrangler]

These are snipes made towards me because of my difference of opinion not because anybody actually knows me. This is what gets annoying

The way I read this situation, and, of course, ymmv, is that you seem to be very aggressively holding minority opinions and the majority who hold different opinions are responding aggressively in turn.

Whether you mean to or not, you come across as unwilling to listen to other people and far too willing to try to get the moderators to delete posts that challenge your positions.

As someone who does not agree with your husbandry practices, I feel a responsibility to counter your minority advice so that the new keepers seeing the range of advice being offered can determine for themselves what are minority and majority opinions before deciding for themselves which advice they should follow.

 

[jazzgeek]

Stunning the mouse in this way seems entirely pointless: If you're giving your snake a stunned mouse, you might as well just give it a frozen/thawed mouse instead, which is also more humane for BOTH the snake and the mouse.

Regarding the "may as well feed F/T" point : not necessarily; please see my prior point regarding exercise in constriction. On top of that, if the snake is refusing EVERYTHING but live, a stunned mouse provides a heartbeat and a twitching movement that will induce a strike while providing relative safety to the snake.

Regarding the "more humane" point: It's obvious, and I don't mean to condescend, but it's the first law of nature: In order for some things to live, some other things gotta die.

regards,
jazz

 

[HaisseM]

The way I read this situation, and, of course, ymmv, is that you seem to be very aggressively holding minority opinions and the majority who hold different opinions are responding aggressively in turn.

Whether you mean to or not, you come across as unwilling to listen to other people and far too willing to try to get the moderators to delete posts that challenge your positions.

As someone who does not agree with your husbandry practices, I feel a responsibility to counter your minority advice so that the new keepers seeing the range of advice being offered can determine for themselves what are minority and majority opinions before deciding for themselves which advice they should follow.

Again, I don't mind the difference of opinion. I have not once said I'm right you're wrong and you have to do it my way (not directed towards you just in general)

I've never once asked a mod to delete a post that challenged my position

All I've said about post are, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS/INSULTS. Trust me I want to strike back, but I'm trying to act like an adult.

 

[starsevol]

So I just looked up Cervical dislocation, and I have to say that's nasty. I don't even think I could touch a mouse/rat long enough to do that. I have a hard enough time holding the tail and knocking it against the wall.

As far as being cruel to the mouse, to be honest the mouse is food to my snake, I'm not worried about being "Cruel" to it.

I don't really like to bang the head of the mouse/rat to be honest, its just an extra precaution I take when feeding live

Yup, like I said, being "humane" is not a concern with certain.....people.

 

[batwrangler]

Regarding the "may as well feed F/T" point : not necessarily; please see my prior point regarding exercise in constriction. On top of that, if the snake is refusing EVERYTHING but live, a stunned mouse provides a heartbeat and a twitching movement that will induce a strike while providing relative safety to the snake.

Regarding the "more humane" point: It's obvious, and I don't mean to condescend, but it's the first law of nature: In order for some things to live, some other things gotta die.

regards,
jazz

I agree that feeding live may be necessary in rare situations and I don't object to that at all.

As I mentioned up-thread, my snakes are all too happy to constrict f/t mice, so the exercise argument doesn't work for me.

I also have no objection to some creatures dying to feed other creatures, but I do strenuously object to unnecessary cruelty, and barring the absolute need to feed live to an otherwise non-feeding snake, I believe feeding live, even feeding stunned live, is unnecessarily cruel.

As distasteful as cervical dislocation is, it is an approved, humane way to dispatch feeder mice, and if one is not feeding frozen thawed (which will have been humanely euthanized with CO2), it is the most responsible way to go.

 

[jazzgeek]

Yup, like I said, being "humane" is not a concern with certain.....people.

Ironic that HaisseM is asking for civility and though you may disagree with his practices (and I certainly do), this couldn't be any more passive/aggressive.

Let's take a deep breath, everyone.

My two cents.

regards,
jazz