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Mouse identification :D Mouse geeks come in...

Those are nice mice, in that link, but neither of them will produce a fawn offspring from a black mouse. The only way you can get that is if the animal is some sort of fawn A(y) or A(vy)... it can't be A(w)/A(w) or you would get a whole different result. Also if it was a c(ch)/c you usually get a chinchilla look or c/c is albino, but while c(ch)/c seems possible, you would get an agouti blend of colors from white to dark grey when blowing the fur against the grain, and I can't remember, but I think I asked if there was any change in the color of the mouse if you blow on the fur, and the result was that you get an animal with solid color shafts of hair.

It's an interesting enigma. There are so many color genes that are out there, and only some of them are categorized in popular mouse breeding circles.

Jeeze, I haven't been to a Jax webpage in so long. Glad I still have all the references in my head. Great stuff at that webpage.
 
I wasn't trying to produce anything. The original post asked for name and info on the mouse in the pic. strain name is 129P (although this may be different among commercial breeders) and the info is on the link.
 
daufoi said:
I wasn't trying to produce anything. The original post asked for name and info on the mouse in the pic. strain name is 129P (although this may be different among commercial breeders) and the info is on the link.


I think what Sash was trying to say is that mine cannot be "129P" because he produced fawn offspring...correct? I am so very confused as to mouse genetics, but all the baby mice you see in this thread are fathered by this guy.


I also noticed, Sash, that only the (grey fur w/pink eyes) are called dove...is there a diff name for (grey fur w/black eyes)?
 
Correct, the gray male mouse cannot be a 129P mouse because it is not a white-bellied animal (A(W)/A(W)) and it is producing Fawn offspring. Therefore it cannot be that mouse. I'm talking strictly genetics here. Although it could be c(ch)/c(ch) ... I'm not sure what the result would be with a mouse with that color combo and A(y) or A(vy) at the A-locus. (which this mouse must have!)

As far as gray with black eyes, in europe this is sometimes called Lilac or dove, and in United states it's the other way around.... pink eyed gray is either lilac or dove, black eyed gray is the opposite, again depending on country.

While the 129P mice seem interesting, they are anomalous in that they are pink eyed, regardless of being albino or not, which is an interesting combination as the albino locus and the pink eyed locus are linked... most mice that are albino do not carry the pink-eyed gene. (which seems ironic, but the pink eyes they have is due to the albino gene). So at Jax they must have produced some "crossover" mice and then bred specifically for that trait.

DOES this gray mouse have a white tummy? That is a way of telling if I'm all messed up in my belief that he's NOT A(w).
 
Oh! After reading through these posts again, I noticed the term 'Lilac' for black-eyed. Now, the black-eyed mice seem to be CONSIDERABLY darker than the red-eyed.

This is a picture of Dad(light solid grey...almost looks brown), Daughter(dark grey, black eyes), Son(pink eyes, light grey & broken-marked)


A couple others...


EDIT: Sorry, I started writing this message several hours ago, and got side-tracked at home with company, and posted it before getting a chance to read your reply. The little grey girl does NOT have a white belly, neither does dad. They both have the same color belly as the top of their bodies.
 
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The interesting thing about dad is that his eyes are NOT pink like his offsprings'. His eyes are an in-between pink and black. He also is not completely light grey or completely dark grey, he's kind of an in-between. As he is getting older, his grey color is kind of turning a little tinge of brown...BUT it is still grey.
 
Those pictures you posted help a lot. This is what I think, gene by gene, of your dad mouse:

Your dad mouse is A(y)/a or A(vy)/a. The A(y) or A(vy) produce the fawn/yellow look, even though your dad mouse is NOT yellow in appearance. the little "a" means he can father black, blue, light gray colored offspring.

In addition I would say it is very likely he is also b/b which is the brown dilution and which can render black eyes into a ruby brown type color. Doesn't always, but it can. This would also account for the brown tint you noted.

I would venture that he is probably c(ch)/c(ch) or c(ch)/c the c(ch) is like a "hypo" gene in snakes, it dilutes the dark colors and renders the yellow into white. This would result in a mouse with no yellow on the individual hairs.

That dark gray one is a "Blue" mouse, which means papa is either D/d or d/d ... I'd venture to say, since he appears to be a lilac mouse, that he is actually d/d... in other words, if it wasn't for his fawn gene at the A-locus, he would be a true lilac mouse. So in essence he is a lilac fawn.

if ALL of his offspring when crossed to a pink-eyed non-albino female are pink eyed, then he is also p/p (pink eyed)... if roughly half are pink-eyed when crossed to a non-albino pink-eyed mouse, then he is P/p... since not all his babies are pink eyed, I'm guessing that he is P/p and the recessive pink eyed gene could be slightly affecting his eye color also.

And since I'm at it... since he had broken marked babies, he's also S/s which means he's het for piebald.

The little gray broken marked there, if it has pink eyes, I would suggest that is a true "Dove" mouse, which is the same as a pink-eyed black mouse.

The lack of white or light colored tummies rules out the mouse being 129P though it was a good call and might have been that mouse if we didn't know all the additional information about the babies.

I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a yellow mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

The way to test this final theory? If you have two of his black offspring, (or black broken marked) of opposite genders, breed them together. If you get yellow babies, it's recessive yellow. (why didn't I think of this before?)

In any case, I don't really think it's recessive yellow, as those have very clear yellow babies, none of this dark umbrous look like some of your babies have)

I just have woken up really sharp this morning! :)
 
I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a black mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

I meant to say the above correction instead of what I said.
 
Ok, wow Sash...impressive! I had to read that post a few times....

Ok, since the Mother of these babies is a broken-marked black mouse(with black eyes) Does that mean that she will HAVE to be het for all these traits as well?

This just all seems very crazy that they could BOTH be het for the same traits...I mean, they were picked up at DIFFERENT pet stores.....

Unless of course there's just A LOT of codom. traits in mice... I'm thoroughly confused...Would you say that my male is a rare deal? And would you have a recommendation on which colored babies to breed back to each other for a new combo? LOL craziness I tell you! Crazy!

Thanks a ton for your wonderful responses! And yes the Broken-marked that I posted pics of has pink eyes.
 
Sasheena said:
I did just have a sudden thought, however.... There is one tiny little chance that I'm completely wrong about the fawn.... if the papa mouse is JUST a lilac and not a fawn, there IS one other way of getting yellow babies when crossing him to a yellow mouse, and that is if they both carry the recessive "e" gene which in its homozygous form results in a non-obese (but VERY beautiful) yellow mouse....

The way to test this final theory? If you have two of his black offspring, (or black broken marked) of opposite genders, breed them together. If you get yellow babies, it's recessive yellow. (why didn't I think of this before?)
I think that is what I have, Sasheena! I get these gorgeous yellow babies from mine...even the dark ones. I've got to try to get some pics of them. I've never had one that was obese, either.
EDIT
I just looked at the bellies of my dove or lilac mice and the bellies are white and yellow/tan. I am going to get pics sometime in the next couple of days! I've got quite a bit of variety! I am really starting to wonder about the genetics, too. It seems a bit confusing to me...
 
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Ok, since the Mother of these babies is a broken-marked black mouse(with black eyes) Does that mean that she will HAVE to be het for all these traits as well?

Well, she MUST BE P/p (recessive for pink eyes), and D/d (recessive for blue)... IF the yellow mice are recessive yellow instead of fawn, then both momma and daddy have to be E/e (recessive for yellow).

This just all seems very crazy that they could BOTH be het for the same traits...I mean, they were picked up at DIFFERENT pet stores.....
It's not that remarkable, really, aside from the recessive yellow, which is still relatively rare. I had this one mouse... his name was Torpedo, I saw him in the petstore several times over a two or three month period, coveted him, then finally bought him. One of the best purchases in my mouse purchasing days! In the end he was a sanded banded black self mouse. He carried blue, and brown and recessive yellow and long haired and curly haired and pink eyed recessives. So he was triple homozygous, and 6-trait heterozygous in addition. Oh yeah, and he was recessive for a head spot and also for piebald. Two other traits. He was remarkable. Here's his webpage I made for him (a long time ago) but this was before I got so many cool results and discovered the rest of his great genetics:

http://www.geocities.com/isophecles/mice/torpedo.html

If I was to list his genetics now (even though he's long since deceased) he would be the following:

a/a B/b C/c(ch) D/d E/e S/s hs/hs P/p W(sh)/w sa/sa LGH/lgh CA/ca

Unless of course there's just A LOT of codom. traits in mice... I'm thoroughly confused...Would you say that my male is a rare deal? And would you have a recommendation on which colored babies to breed back to each other for a new combo? LOL craziness I tell you! Crazy!

There are a LOT of traits in mice. I have a number of Mouse genetics papers on the website on which Torpedo's page is, and even more polished stuff on my normal website: http://www.geocities.com/mousedomousery If you wanted to learn about his genetics, I would take and cross some of the pure black babies. You will learn a LOT about those mice because you KNOW they are a/a and cannot have fawn, also they could be just chock full of recessive genes, crossing two blacks, or a black male and all the black females together will teach you a lot. I promise to analyze the genetics of those litters too if you want me to. :)

Thanks a ton for your wonderful responses! And yes the Broken-marked that I posted pics of has pink eyes.

You are quite welcome! I've enjoyed answering your questions. I was a bit rusty, but I'm getting it all back now as I have to scrounge through my data storage systems in my brain to retreive all this fun information. I even used the information today in my Geometry class. They were all so sleepy, I said, "We could always talk about genetics instead of geometry" ... only problem was the kids were wanting to talk genetics instead of geometry. Go figure.
 
I just looked at the bellies of my dove or lilac mice and the bellies are white and yellow/tan. I am going to get pics sometime in the next couple of days! I've got quite a bit of variety! I am really starting to wonder about the genetics, too. It seems a bit confusing to me...

You have (most likely) what my husband likes to refer to as "Shoe Mice"... mice that look like a shoe with a different colored "sole". There are two major genes that result in the look of a "shoe mouse" but the much more likely gene is the a(t) gene. The A(w) gene from the 129P mice is not frequently found in the "mouse fancy" (breeding of fancy mice) although I think it's more prevalent in europe and overseas than in the United States. The a(t) gene is similar to the "a" gene.... a mouse that is a/a is usually black unless they are recessive brown or blue also. One that is a/a(t) is a mouse that is black (or blue or brown) on the top of the body, but reverts to the wild type on the belly, so the recessive color is on the top of the mouse, the dominant wild-mouse color on the belly. Mice with the chinchilla gene c(ch) have all the yellow bleached out of the belly hairs, making them have a white belly. The ones with the tan bellies are called "Tan" mice and the ones with the white bellies are "Fox" mice. I love that look and have worked hard to maintain those in my collection. Eep, and that is the other gene that Torpedo had, he was not an a/a mouse, he was an a/a(t) mouse, he was a "shoe" mouse.
 
Sasheena said:
If you wanted to learn about his genetics, I would take and cross some of the pure black babies. You will learn a LOT about those mice because you KNOW they are a/a and cannot have fawn, also they could be just chock full of recessive genes, crossing two blacks, or a black male and all the black females together will teach you a lot. I promise to analyze the genetics of those litters too if you want me to. :)

Wonderful deal! Thank you. My only problem is that I've been taking out the blacks first to feed them off because I didn't think they would probably throw any colors...
:rolleyes:

I think I have a couple left...Here's for hopin' its a pair! Oh geez! I think a bird just flew into my bedroom window..like the glass...

Yep, bird is dead...what an idiot. And what a shame...
Ok, sorry...that was just REALLY weird.

Sasheena said:
You have (most likely) what my husband likes to refer to as "Shoe Mice"... mice that look like a shoe with a different colored "sole". There are two major genes that result in the look of a "shoe mouse" but the much more likely gene is the a(t) gene. The A(w) gene from the 129P mice is not frequently found in the "mouse fancy" (breeding of fancy mice) although I think it's more prevalent in europe and overseas than in the United States. The a(t) gene is similar to the "a" gene.... a mouse that is a/a is usually black unless they are recessive brown or blue also. One that is a/a(t) is a mouse that is black (or blue or brown) on the top of the body, but reverts to the wild type on the belly, so the recessive color is on the top of the mouse, the dominant wild-mouse color on the belly. Mice with the chinchilla gene c(ch) have all the yellow bleached out of the belly hairs, making them have a white belly. The ones with the tan bellies are called "Tan" mice and the ones with the white bellies are "Fox" mice. I love that look and have worked hard to maintain those in my collection. Eep, and that is the other gene that Torpedo had, he was not an a/a mouse, he was an a/a(t) mouse, he was a "shoe" mouse.

I love the Tan looking mice. I've been wondering where I could find a Black Silk Tan mouse(tan belly). I saw a picture online...and now I'm really interested.
 
The strangest thing in breeding fancy colors of mice is that you ALWAYS want to have black mice around to test theories! They don't have to be solid black, they can be broken marked, but sometimes those are a little more difficult to identify colors on, because of all the white interspersed among the color.

Black mice are super cool because you know certain things about their genetics:

a/a (recessive black) B/* (not brown) C/* (not albino) D/* (Not blue) E/* (Not yellow) P/* (Not pink eyed)

You learn a LOT by the babies that the black mouse has.... what are its recessives, what are the recessives of the other mouse. It's great! :)

Anyway, gotta run. I think I'm outta brain cells and have to go chase the last one down before it gets away
 
Finally got a few pictures of some of my breeders.

Here is a gorgeous yellow mouse. These guys have such a rich, color. I really like them!
yellow-mouse.jpg


This picture shows one of my dove/lilac, a couple of broken marked yellows, and a broken marked black.
mice.jpg


Another broken marked yellow, dove/lilac, and black.
lilac-mouse.jpg


And a cute little brown and white girl
brown-white-mouse.jpg


Finally, I had to include this picture because it is SO cute!
mouse-nose.jpg
 
Cute meeces...

About the last picture... I used to keep coconuts with my mice... until I found one mouse had stuck her head through and effectively hanged herself! I found her before she perished and with the aid of vegetable oil got her out... but she died.
 
DdotSpot said:
Ok this post is two-fold. First question for you Sash...Now here is a picture with the mom(black and white) and the other mom(fawn and white-which is also daughter to black and white mom, but diff dads). Is the little brown baby a totally different color than fawn? Or will it darken up and turn more orangey as it gets older?

IMG_1687.jpg

Sorry to jump in here so late in the thread. However, the tanish colored baby is a Beige not a Fawn. The Beige gene is on the C loci and is a recessive extension gene so that baby would be c(e)c(e).

~Jeff C.
 
After reading the intire thread I am fairly certain that your male is a Dove (or Lilac if you prefer) het for Blue, Beige, and Recessive Yellow aa/B*/Cc(e)/Dd/Ee/pp. If he was A(y) or A(vy) then you would definitely see yellow/tan/red coloration as these are both dominant. In fact all Reds and Fawns created using the lethal yellow gene A(y) are A(y)a as A(y)A(y) is a lethal combination. I have personally raised all of the above colors on a show level in the past. I love Sasheena's genetic page. But if you would like another here is the link to my gentic page http://the-rodent-express.com/Genetics/

~Jeff C.
 
Terri,

I would say that those are Recessive Yellows ee and the pink eyed ones are Fawns ee/pp, produced with the ee gene. However the could also be "clean" Brindles A(vy)a. When you breed yellow to yellow do you get 100% yellow?

~Jeff C.
 
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