Mystery Ghost *female*

[Menhir]

Don I'm sure this has happend more than a few times.

Vinny, do I see some pure corn paranoia again? :crazy02:

Perhaps we should stop discussion unserious and untrue thoughts and all agree that this is a: :shrugs:

:wavey:

 

[Joejr14]

As Don said....

Even if back 20 generations there was emoryi blood thrown into the mix, that would be almost non-existant if crossed with pure corns from then to now.

50% emory, 25% emory, 12.5% emory, 6.25% emoryi, etc etc

Nothing has ever shown that something outcrossed so much would all of a sudden pop back up with an extreme emoryi look. That just doesnt hold true with what emoryi blood in a corn does. Heck, after it becomes 75% corn good luck in seeing the emoryi in a snake, nevermind being 1% or less.

 

[Vinman]

I belive what rich tells me If he said that they are pure then the are pure this is why if it turns out to be a new gene I will get some of rich's pure rosy stock. and not the ones that were breed into miami corns.

 

[carol]

Ya, believe me. I am not opposed to the Hybrid/Intergrade thing because it hurts my feelings. Most people know I am a stickler for being sure your stock is pure or notifying everyone who buys that stock to know what they are getting.
I have no motive for saying they are not Hybrids/Intergrades, except for the fact that it doesn't make sense.
If they were crosses, the blood would have to be so diluted to make that Red, that any trace of an emoyri pattern would not be still showing up. Much like Don's point, I own creamsicles that are pretty close to emoyri roots, but thier saddles are just like corns.
I wouldn't get a more "extreme" look from further outcrossing the animals.

 

[Vinman]

joe that look can pop up in later gen. when you add rosy into the mix, and when you have two 7/8 corns bred together you dont know for sure what traits can pop up if future animals.

 

[Joejr14]

joe that look can pop up in later gen. when you add rosy into the mix, and when you have two 7/8 corns bred together you dont know for sure what traits can pop up if future animals.

Rosy rats (aka upper keys) are from the keys. There are no emoryi rat snakes in Florida, and I really doubt that Rich's upper keys have any emoryi in them, unless of course the guy he got them from has screwed around with them---but there is zero indication of that, as with Don's upper keys.

If you have a corn that is 1/10 emoryi and you pair it up with a corn that is 1/8 emoryi, you're going to get a resulting snake that is 1/9 emoryi.

I have yet to see anyone show me a corn that has 6.25% or less emoryi genes that looks like an emoryi.

Perhaps this is due to the fact that most of what we see are creamsicles, but who knows. I really doubt that the emoryi look could somehow pop up from parental stock coming from Don and Rich---just doesnt make sense.

Carol if you're reading this, were there 'normals' in the clutch? If so, can you post/re-post those pictures?

Don? You said you had a few of those males spring up from some banded miami line or something? Did the normals in those clutches have any of that same look to them?

I'm assuming none had that high saddle count or emoryi look to them--even if they werent that typical emoryi color. That should pretty much prove that we're dealing with a new gene.

It'll be interested to see what happens when crossed to Anery A/B

 

[Vinman]

at the end of post #20 I wrote ; Also I talked to Rich, he told me that only the anerys have this pattren not he normals and thease come from pure rosy stock. the parents that produces the anerys came from a gravid W.C. fem. rosy.
this is why I will be getting anerys from his pure key stock if they are a new gene like I siad before some mutations changes the color and pattren as in motley, stripe, and bloodred

 

[Serpwidgets]

It is anery-like, but it doesn't seem to match up with anerys or charcoals. Hurley mentioned that it looks like a pattern trait. I think looking at it from that angle (especially in comparison to "normal" and/or hypo siblings) might be useful.

Glad to see you guys are catching up.

 

[carol]

LOL Serp!
Joe there are some pics of 3 Amel Siblings in the other "Mystery Ghost" thread (including belly shots). Here is a baby pic of a Hypo sibling.

 

[Traci1]

One thing I can say for sure is that I am becoming more and more interested in adding keys corns to my collection!

 

[Vinman]

Carol that hypo has the same type pattren as the anerys

 

[Serpwidgets]

On the female I counted 50 or 51 saddles from head to vent. With this hypo I got 40 or 41 saddles. I'll have to look at the amels in the other thread. Anyone else count them out yet?

 

[Vinman]

serp look at the crown on the head in the hypo and the anery if this is not a cross then maybe the weard pattren and head markings come from some new hypo , and thast is why the charcoal looks so diffrent.

 

[carol]

Yes both have a banded apperance, however, the Hypo has top saddles that wrap around pretty far down. If you look at the Anerys the lower saddles (that are usually non descript in corns) are larger than normal and work thier way up, then they meet with the top saddles to creat the banding effect. So the clutch really shows two types of banding. Here is a close up shot of an Amel sibling that is similar in pattern to the Anerys.

 

[carol]

Thought it would be nice to show some pics of dad. I tried to get a nice pic of him today, but he is a very aggresive breeder and will not sit still when there are ladies to find and service. So I'll have to be satified with the shot I got of him, an older terrible quality pic and some nice baby pics. If any of you happen to notice tha black line going down his back, no that is not dorsal stripes or a wierd new marking, it is a scar from a previous escape. He is the one that showed me that binder clips keep no lid down in breeding season.

The last pic is a belly comparison made when both parents were about 7 months old. Dad's belly is on top and Mom's on bottom. This clutch has intrigued me from day one so I have lots of pics!

 

[carol]

And don't forget Auntie Crazy's pattern. I sure wish this female would breed for me. Two years in a row with nothing but slugs, even the most aggresive male can't seem to get his way with her. Anyone want her? :grin01:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Ok, I went through and counted saddles (head to where I think the vent is) on any of the pictures I could find in this thread, the male's thread, and the older thread linked to from the male's thread. Below are my results. I'd like to see anyone else's results... never hurts to double check.

Saddle counts from head to vent:

Don's anery-looking snake from his Hypo Miami lines: ~40

Carol's P-generation Hypo Miami from SMR: 40-43

-----

Carol's F1s
Male: 40-42
Female: 40-42

-----

Carol's F2s
"Ghost" male: 50-ish?

"Ghost" female: 50-51

Q-tip: 40 or less

Full amel sister: 36-37

Full bro: (not sure, but looks like 42-43?)

-----

There's quite a significant jump between the "high" and "low" saddle counts (25% more!) and no gradient between (that we've seen so far) which could be consistent with a simple on/off mechanism such as a single mutant gene. I think we can rule out hypo as having anything to do with it since it doesn't follow the hypo around.

But the high saddle count is "following" the "anery" part. This is only a couple of cases, but in my mind it implies a potential link between the anery look and the odd pattern. It's definitely worth a closer look at any of these "anerys" and as many of their parents/siblings/offspring as possible. There may or may not be a link, but we won't know if we don't look for it.

 

[carol]

That is a signifigant difference! I sure hope I can make more and count saddles! A pattern trait connected to Anery could be fun. We shall see!
One last pic because it was sooo cute! Mom and Dad together as babys, it was meant to be...
Looks like I will need to make another donation with my picorama spree! Sorry Rich, I'll make up for it!
Funny thing is I had quite a waiting list for Hypos from this pair, I ended up producing very few because of the Anery and Amel.

 

[carol]

I know Rich is incredibly busy right now, but I wonder what the saddle count is on his Anerys??
Hey I'll make a deal with you Rich, you take the picture and I'll count the saddles.

 

[Joejr14]

Thanks for the pics Carol!

I'm in the library now between classes but I'm going to check those out closer when I get home.

And this is exactly why I'll be getting some Upper Keys this year. I think they hold tremendous potential for some very interesting secret projects of mine