Need advice for training a shelter dog <3

[Symphony_grace]

Let me introduce you to my fluff: Bear! I got him last Thursday :cheers:
He was told to be about 11 months old, An Australian Shepard mix (the shelter didn't have a clue what he had besides shep., but his big paws and face suggested chow chow or rottweiler), and that he's a love bug (Very Proven!).
But as everyone should or does know, shelter dogs have the problems from their previous owners, and he has some that I wish to train him out of, and advice would help me greatly, as I would like to train him as a show dog if allowed and as my best friend to walk with and help the rest of his days be enjoyable :]
His problems are:
1. Stopping in the middle of the road, cut in front of me and my family as we are walking and almost tripping us, and being a roadblock, refusing to move unless I have to move him with my leg (Never appreciated doing this to him but it's all I know).
2. When I sit, lay down, or am playing with my dad's puppy, he will come and interfere right between us. I understand that he's gonna be needy, but something has to be done.
3. He will randomly jump on people. The only thing I have done for this is to push him off and say NO.
4. Passively, he's a digger. I only saw two accounts of him trying to dig to get in a small gated area for our plants.
5. He doesn't bark at all. Although I love him as a dog of hugs and naps, I need him to be a guard dog too.
6. I believe there are problems of him focusing on me, with and without treats in my hand, and he doesn't know any tricks/ commands. This problem has me concerned the most.
And these last two really aren't problems but I'm working on them and advice on this is appreciated too:
- It's obvious that nobody played with Bear since he doesn't know what to do with rope toys or tennis balls. Not even a Frisbee! Slow progress on this one.
- Bear must have been left outside or something because at night, he refuses to come inside. He barely sleeps when inside but out on our cold porch, he's sleeping just fine! This is also a slow progress as he used to not even dare come inside, but lately he's been wandering around and contemplates my room xD
I'm sorry that this is quite hard to read but I have been worried about Bear's training since Saturday and I wish for help. Videos, articles, I beg for anything to give me a better understanding!!!!
THANK YOU! :grabbit:

 

[MysticExotics]

First, congrats on your rescue! Both my dogs are rescues, one of them I have only had for a little more than a week.

I would recommend the "two week shut down" period. He needs to adjust to being in a new home. Do not try to work him into what you want him to be doing right away, instead, keep things low key for him. Keep visitors to a minimum, don't take him out to socialize, etc. You want this time with him to bond.
I kennel/crate them at night & while I'm gone during this time. This helps with house training too. I have since started letting my new rescue sleep outside of her kennel, in my room at night. She too, was likely left outside, & so living in a house is foreign to her. She's not house trained, as previously thought, so I'm working on that as well.

Two week shut down for new dogs

After the two week shut down, I would recommend getting him into an obedience class.

Also, after the two weeks, lots of excercise. A tired dog is a happy dog (& not destructive).

"Nothing in life is free" training

This one may or may not pertain to your dog, but still good information: Behavior adjustment training

Not all dogs are necessarily good guard dogs. Talk to local dog trainers & see about having him evaluated. Some dogs naturally become good guard dogs, wanting to protect their people. Regardless, you cannot expect him to automatically be a guard dog right off the bat. He hasn't had time to really become part of your family yet.
Plus, he's still pretty young, not fully mature. You cannot expect him to have a strong attention span.

Why do you want to train him as a show dog?

You've only had him for three days, correct?
Read the links I've provided, they will help you.

 

[Nanci]

The very best dog problem forum I know is pitbullforum.com It doesn't matter if you have a pit or not- most of the problems are universal. Most problems are covered in the extensive section of stickies.

 

[MysticExotics]

Also, it's a good idea to research the breed traits of all the breeds you think he might be. Knowing the breed traits might help you in how you need to handle him.
for example, I have had years of experience with German Shepherds, that's what I have mostly kept. My new girl, is a GSD/Belgian Malinois mix. She's my first hands on experience with the Malinois breed. Learning the Malinois traits (as well as knowing people who raise them & work with them, ie: K9 handlers) has helped me with what to expect, & how to handle various behaviors.
(They are definitely *not* for beginner dog owners.)

 

[MysticExotics]

The very best dog problem forum I know is pitbullforum.com It doesn't matter if you have a pit or not- most of the problems are universal. Most problems are covered in the extensive section of stickies.

The first link I posted is from bulldogbreeds.com, & I agree with you on that.

 

[MysticExotics]

I went back & put the links in bold text, so they're easier to locate.

 

[Symphony_grace]

Not all dogs are necessarily good guard dogs. Talk to local dog trainers & see about having him evaluated. Some dogs naturally become good guard dogs, wanting to protect their people. Regardless, you cannot expect him to automatically be a guard dog right off the bat. He hasn't had time to really become part of your family yet.
Plus, he's still pretty young, not fully mature. You cannot expect him to have a strong attention span.

Why do you want to train him as a show dog?

You've only had him for three days, correct?

I know this and I do not expect him to immediately. He's still a puppy, yet I'm just curious if dogs can be trained to be guard dogs or not is all.

I can only hope he develops a strong attention span in due time that he's living with us. He's starting to show his true colors, starting with a strange habit of grabbing a hold of his leg and flipping himself over and over again. My dad believes this is his way to get attention from me only since he didn't behave like this with him. Maybe he had to do the same thing with his previous owners. Makes me angry just thinking of the loneliness he must have had! And he also hauls butt with a boundless energy and pounces on my dad's puppy. Silly dog.

He looks like a good show dog. He loves being groomed! Everytime I grab the bristle brush he stays still and moves around so I don't miss an inch besides his tail. He hates being brushed on the tail very understandable though. Plus his calm temperament and not give a care about any other dogs convinced me that he would be a good show dog, but this is just me. It would be quite fun to enter a contest with him at my side.

And well it's four days now but yes. I have been at an almost constant thought about how I'm going to combat new behaviors and actions since I am brand new at this and made this thread for advice like you have given me and I appreciate it! I adopted the two week shut down but still trying to teach him what is acceptable behavior and what is not, such as his jumping on people and constant begging for attention, although I can honestly say that it could be allowed while he is still adjusting to his new home. More opinions are invited.

 

[Myca]

Congratulations on your new dog. I've trained many,many dogs over the years. He is just a young dog who does not have many social skills.
1. Stopping in the middle of the road, tripping you ect. He probably didn't walk on a leash much before. Dogs are like children, they learn by repetition. Lots and lots of walks. I like to use a 'Gentle Leader' if they are really a pain. Be patient and take him out for a lot of walks. Make them fun. That means frequent short walks if you have to.
2. Dogs always like to be in the middle of you and anyone else. Most of them anyway. He wants you to play with him and not the puppy. As you teach him sit and stay, you will be able to control some of this. You can also teach him 'mat' or 'bed'. That means 'go to your mat and stay there.' Again, introduce a rug or doggy bed and start teaching him that is his spot. This takes more time but really useful in the long run.
3. Put him on a leash, use his Gentle Leader or whatever works for you and practice introducing him to people. I recommend a kennel. You put him in the kennel after introductions when you are not able to physically control him. You bring him out to interact with your guests and keep him on a leash. Make him sit for all introductions and interactions. This will help to keep him from butt sniffing people.
4. You are going to have to watch him outside. He will dig when he is bored.
5. Don't worry about the barking, guard dog stuff. You just got him. He has to establish his territory first. I would not encourage him to be aggressive. The law suits resulting from a bite, even on your own property start at around $10K.
The puppy class is a fantastic idea. It will be money and time well spent. Most of all, relax and enjoy your new friend. I train my dogs their entire lives. If you spend time with him almost every day, you will end up with a great dog but it takes real time and effort.

 

[Myca]

I really like his warm fuzzy face.

 

[Symphony_grace]

I really like his warm fuzzy face.

That is one reason I begged my dad to let me save him :]
But you do have some good pointers that made me think for a couple minutes. I never thought about going on frequent walks up until now. I remember being told one time that "regardless of the history, a dog should walk with you in a gradual process that leads up to progress and a strong bond" and what you typed made that quote clear than before, although I'm ashamed that it didn't spark at all ^^; I will take your advice and start walking him almost everyday.
But I'm not understanding what you said about controlling his desire to be in the middle of me and everyone else, and kennel training. I would be happy if you would allow me your time to clarify this. We did put down a cushion mat for him to be comfy on, but he sleeps around it.
Also, I'm not going to train him to be aggressive. California law hates the idea that burglars and robbers get injured while doing crimes I just need him to be guarding the house well while my family and I are gone. Nobody wants to mess with a dog that shows its bare teeth or come with friends!
Thank you for your advice and time!

 

[MegF.]

I'm going to answer these after each question:
[His problems are:
1. Stopping in the middle of the road, cut in front of me and my family as we are walking and almost tripping us, and being a roadblock, refusing to move unless I have to move him with my leg (Never appreciated doing this to him but it's all I know).

when I walk a dog they are not allowed to roam at the end of the leash, or weave back and forth. They walk next to me or slightly behind and are expected to stay there. Keep the leash looped loosely and correct with a quick leash tug any time he attempts to move ahead of you. You should be walking him in a slip lead, choke chain or martigale collar and not a harness or flat collar as the latter offers no control. Keeping the leash high on the neck right behind the ears gives you more control as you will have conrol of the head. Keeping your arm relaxed by your side allows him to feel relaxed as well but still gives you the opportunity to correct with just a twitch of the fingers. Corrections that are larger should be made to the side or UP, never back...it just increases pulling in dogs. A prong collar can also be used but it sounds more like he just lacks direction on the walk.

2. When I sit, lay down, or am playing with my dad's puppy, he will come and interfere right between us. I understand that he's gonna be needy, but something has to be done.

Just because he's a shelter dog does not mean you have to feel sorry for him or that he'll be needy. I've fostered and rehabbed many, many dogs in almost 7 years and trained a good deal more. Pushing in is dominance, not being needy and you need to nip that in the bud. Send him away from you any time he pushes in for attention. It's rude! Snap your fingers, firmly say no and send him off. He needs to leave of his own accord not because you've pushed him away. When you want his attention, you should be calling him to you, not him coming to you whenever he feels like it.


3. He will randomly jump on people. The only thing I have done for this is to push him off and say NO.

A touch with a couple of fingers in the side or a "claw bite" with your fingers to the side of the neck should get him off of them...usually a touch to the flanks will get a dog's attention so that they will move off someone. Teach your friends and visitors not to talk, touch or make eye contact with your dog until he's calm. Then allow him into their space. I know it's hard to do...most people think that the dog is happy to see them when they jump up....again, it's dominance and excitement and just plain rude. He should be staying back from the doors etc. when you invite people in. Teach him that the only time he receives affection is when "all four are on the floor!"
4. Passively, he's a digger. I only saw two accounts of him trying to dig to get in a small gated area for our plants.

Lack of exercise can lead to digging although digging is a normal dog behavior. If he continues you might provide him with a digging area and teach him to use that. A small sandbox type area with dirt that you can hide items in so that he can "find" them is helpful. Digging is primal behavior.


5. He doesn't bark at all. Although I love him as a dog of hugs and naps, I need him to be a guard dog too.

Not all dogs bark. I'm sorry that you want him to bark (and he may after a while especially if there are other dogs that do it) but that doesn't mean he's not a protector. My ridgeback does not bark and never has, but that doesn't mean she won't protect. She's still a protector.

6. I believe there are problems of him focusing on me, with and without treats in my hand, and he doesn't know any tricks/ commands. This problem has me concerned the most.

You are expecting an awful lot from a dog you just got. Most dogs take at LEAST 30 days to begin to really fit in and until then, you won't get a whole lot out of them unless you are experienced. I've been working with dogs for most of my life and the fosters that come in are on a specific schedule when they arrive so they assimilate into my existing pack and household pretty quickly. Expecting a new dog to focus on your isn't going to happy right away. I do not use treats to train or gain respect from the dogs. I simply set rules and boundaries and the dogs fit right in, look to me for instruction and leadership and I don't have to bargain for that. Lead your dog and he'll look to you automatically to find out what you want.

And these last two really aren't problems but I'm working on them and advice on this is appreciated too:
- It's obvious that nobody played with Bear since he doesn't know what to do with rope toys or tennis balls. Not even a Frisbee! Slow progress on this one.
- Bear must have been left outside or something because at night, he refuses to come inside. He barely sleeps when inside but out on our cold porch, he's sleeping just fine! This is also a slow progress as he used to not even dare come inside, but lately he's been wandering around and contemplates my room xD

I've had plenty of dogs that never played with toys and I have plenty of dogs that just don't care to play with toys. My ridgebacks were both like that. Occasionally they play with a nylabone or something but otherwise they aren't interested in things like that. They've never gone for balls-the breed generally aren't retrievers although I did train my first ridgeback to retrieve for obedience. Once they relax they sometimes get more playful. You sound as if you assume all dogs like to play with balls and frisbees...I've actually had very few that were either ball driven or interested in frisbee. Most like to quietly chew on a nylabone or rope toy but even that not all dogs like.

As far as sleeping outdoors. It won't kill him if that's what he's comfortable with. My dogs sleep indoors for several reasons. Besides the alarm, they are a first line of defense if someone breaks in at night. Two: most predators and their prey are out at night. Night time is when skunks nail dogs, barking at deer goes on etc. I dislike dogs barking at all sorts of sounds, and when they are in with me, that doesn't happen.
My fosters sleep in the laundry room on a dog bed with the door closed. My own dogs sleep with me at my invite. Each one has a spot. Tavis sometimes likes to sleep out in the livingroom and my current foster sleeps there as well...I had two at the time and one slept in the laundry room and the feral puppy slept in the livingroom. She still feels comfortable there. If your dog moves around, train him to crate, put the crate in your room at night and have him sleep there, or put him in something like the laundry room to sleep where he can feel safe but he's not out getting into things.

I don't necessarily agree that all shelter dogs came with problems. I've gotten some outstanding dogs without any issues at all from the shelter (my last foster being one) and I've had some that were pretty difficult but with good leadership and lots of exercise, they turned into outstanding dogs.
You might look into Cesar Millan's books or DVD's. He also has books on CD to listen to if you don't like to read. I personally like hardcover. The Monk's of New Skete have some excellent books on training and handling dogs that are well worth getting as well.

I'm sorry that this is quite hard to read but I have been worried about Bear's training since Saturday and I wish for help. Videos, articles, I beg for anything to give me a better understanding!!!!
THANK YOU! :grabbit:[/QUOTE]

 

[cryingscarf]

I cannot cover everything at the moment because I have to go do something but I will try to say a few things before I have to leave!

For the walking problem, you do not need to use leash pops to teach a dog leash manners (and especially not on a choke/prong collar). My recommendation for the leash problems would be to start with establishing a game of "watch me!" Instead of typing up a huge paragraph, I'll link this awesome video (any kikopup video is a great video!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiMGJBxRtBw and then here's the link for her loose leash walking video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ

For the jumping, he just doesn't know what is acceptable or not. Instead of yelling "no" (which means nothing to the dog at all), give him something to do instead. If you know when he is likely to jump (for example when you walk in the door) ask him right away to sit or down or go to a mat and then give him all the pettings (in a calm manner as to not set off the jumping again). In the long run, he will learn to do these without you asking and everyone will be happy. When he jumps up on a person, have them turn their back to him so that jumping up isn't being reinforced with attention. Only give him attention once he is standing or sitting. If he jumps again, repeat the process. It will take a bit of time but I promise it will click.

For the focus issues, let him settle in like others have said. But also I recommend trying different treats/foods to see what gets him going. Think outside of the box! I use string cheese and cut up hot dogs for my dog's agility classes. I also discovered that he would do anything for frozen peas! I know one girl who uses her left over dinner as treats. As long as the treats are very small (so the dog doesn't waste time chewing or get sick/fat!)

Megf., I am sure you are a wonderful dog owner and a great person. I am not tearing you apart or trying to be mean. Believe me when I say that. But please do some reading on dominance theory and Cesar Milan. He uses an outdated and incorrect training method that can easily damage the dog-human bond and the more people that make the transition to positive reinforcement the better Here are a couple resources: http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/?/dominance.php
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html

Basically, a dog is a dog. Not a human. And certainly not a wolf (domestication kind of did a number on that claim!) We cannot expect them to understand the rules we have set for them (don't pull, don't jump etc) unless we find a way to communicate it to them in a way that their unique doggy minds can understand. It is much better (and creates a much healthier relationship) if you do so through a positive manner and not intimidation or punishment. I recommend any new dog owner pick up the book "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. And if you ever need any advice, feel free to message me at any time.

 

[MegF.]

Cryingscarf...I've been working with dogs for most of my 50 years and observing packs of dogs for nearly that long. Dogs do have a heirarchy and they do practice dominance. If you say they don't, you haven't watched dogs interact.I have yet to damage a dog as you so describe and I have fixed more dogs than you've probably seen. You don't destroy a dog by setting up rules and boundaries, you destroy a dog by having none. I have seen a lot of positive only trained dogs and in fact are working with several right now. They are no more trained than other dogs and in fact respond only if they know you've got something to bribe them with. I use both positive and what you'd call negative training. A balance of both.I have watched countless tapes of wolves and dogs and believe me, they act in many ways quite similarly. Dogs do not correct each other using reward...they use body language, looks and teeth. I use a look, body language, energy and my teeth would be a finger touch or leash...as you said leash pop. My dogs are well behaved, happy and willingly follow. If you'd like to come to MY place and watch my dogs interact then you can see that indeed dogs DO practice dominance. You can also come watch me work with my clients dogs as well. I do not injure, instill fear or any other thing in the dog. Only respect. If gaining respect is whatever you want to call it go for it. You mistake correction for punishment and you are completely wrong. There is only punishment if you correct for something the dog does not understand. Punishment is done in anger. Correction is giving warning and then following through with a correction. A dog does in fact understand this and they follow this in their own world. Watch a dog that is not interacting properly with another dog. That dog will either give a look, stiffen or follow with a growl. If the other dog does not react to the signal to stop what they are doing, this will be followed by a bite, grab or even a roll. I've watched it countless times with my pack and others. I've watched mother dogs correct their pups, I've watched adults correct adolescents for incorrect behavior. You ought to sit and watch a bunch of dogs together sometime before you start denouncing behaviors you've obviously only read about but never observed.

 

[cryingscarf]

This will be my last post dealing with positive vs dominance. I will not argue over this as I have stated my opinion and you have yours and no amount of discussing will change that. But I DO have to say that you do not know me at all or my experiences/history so do not tell me what I need to do. I have worked at a dog daycare/boarding kennel for 5-6 years, I have 6 more years experience handling shelter dogs. I have been very involved in the dog world throughout my life, always doing research and I am on the path to training dogs professionally. I have seen what you and other dominance trainers believe is "dominance" and see a totally different picture. People see what they want to see. There's the quick fix of corrections (band aid fix) that yes I know works/stops the undesired behavior but I prefer to figure out WHY the dog is exhibiting the behavior and fix it that way.

I have learned that you cannot change the minds of people who are set in their ways, but any one else that is reading this that wants to learn about dog training? Please do your research on both training methods and make an educated decision on how to spend your dogs ~10 years.

 

[diamondlil]

Whichever methods you decide to use to train your dog, consistency, timing and focus are the key elements, IMO. Dogs are socially aware and can read subtle cues and react to them before you even know you are interacting with them. Personally I think a lot of the dominance theory problems come from people not realising that it's a fluid concept. No dog is totally dominant in all situations. But what their overal ranking is within a group isn't always clear because their signals to each other are subtle unless there is a conflict.
You do not have to hurt, frighten or upset a dog to build respect, but you do have to assert control over it IMO. Dogs naturally want you to be their leader otherwise they will be unbalanced. And just like teenagers, it's natural for them to push the boundaries and need reminding of what is acceptable. Praising wanted behaviour and correcting unwanted behaviour isn't a big thing. It's an everyday part of owning a dog. The corrections Rosie gives Bertie for overstepping boundaries are far harsher than mine, but 5 minutes later they lay down together or are having a wrestling match.

 

[MegF.]

Beautifully said Janine. That's exactly how I mean. All ways that don't hurt the dog. I think no matter what you can take all the ideas, adapt them to your particular style and likings and make a great dog out of a good dog. I'm thrilled that you've saved another from possible death. It's something I've been doing in fostering and rehabbing for nearly 7 years now and it's still a very wonderful feeling when they go off to their new owners and you get updates later with pictures. We hope that you post some pictures of your new kid here as well! Janine has been posting updated photos of her dogs for over a year now and we still love to see them!

 

[MysticExotics]

Whichever methods you decide to use to train your dog, consistency, timing and focus are the key elements, IMO. Dogs are socially aware and can read subtle cues and react to them before you even know you are interacting with them. Personally I think a lot of the dominance theory problems come from people not realising that it's a fluid concept. No dog is totally dominant in all situations. But what their overal ranking is within a group isn't always clear because their signals to each other are subtle unless there is a conflict.
You do not have to hurt, frighten or upset a dog to build respect, but you do have to assert control over it IMO. Dogs naturally want you to be their leader otherwise they will be unbalanced. And just like teenagers, it's natural for them to push the boundaries and need reminding of what is acceptable. Praising wanted behaviour and correcting unwanted behaviour isn't a big thing. It's an everyday part of owning a dog. The corrections Rosie gives Bertie for overstepping boundaries are far harsher than mine, but 5 minutes later they lay down together or are having a wrestling match.

Very well stated J9!

 

[Symphony_grace]

I completely agree with diamondlil I have been using....let's call them "peaceful" tactics to train my dog. The only time I have to get physical with him is when I must pull and hold on his collar when he kept getting into my friends' nether regions and tap his nose when he does behavior I do not like. I also praise with hugs and an occasional treat :] Bear has been improving greatly, and I wish to thank you all for the advice that you gave your time to give me and other people on this site!

 

[Symphony_grace]

Here's an update for those who are interested:
Bear has improved greatly with my time with him. He barely jumps on people now! I taught him to instead Sit in front of the person standing, also on command. Right now I'm reading on how I'm going to train him for other commands and then tricks.
My walks with him also have improved how he walks along my side. He does sometimes get in the way because he apparently likes to smell and observe the environment. Slowly learning that he can't do that as much as he likes when we're doing errands and chores.
I'm still having trouble with his desire for my attention. His behavior has calmed down a bit but he still get in my space. Basically, he acts like a puppy. Yes, he's still a puppy, although I'm pretty sure by now that he is a year old. I have been standing up and turning my back on him, ignored him, smacked his nose lightly and said NO when he tries to while I'm sitting on the floor. Maybe repetition is key here. I'm not really sure but he truly is becoming my friend to walk with <3

 

[Nanci]

I wonder if you could give him a "place" such as a rug or bed, and send him to it, and reward him for going there, for the times you don't want him clinging to you. You can both have him wait, and then release him, and reward him, or send him and not give him a command to wait or stay, and then reward as he remains there on his own.

I do a similar thing with Ella in the evening after we come back in. I don't want her milling around in the bedroom alone (with Bella, without me) because she steals toilet paper, and I don't want to crate her, so I have her "go lay down" in the laundry room, (adjacent to the kitchen, with an open door and a big rug) and then pop in and give her a small treat every once in a while. Now she rushes to get to her "place" after we come in to settle down for the evening, and I have to wake her up when it's time to go to bed!