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O my gosh I want a ball python!!!!

Hey, big, tough guy, AndrewH--

Your information SUCKS. I wouldn't take a snake from you for free.

NOW I am specifically addressing you.

When I address "someone claiming to know", I am addressing whomever wrote the bunk I am debating. If that happens to be you, so be it. Just more of your information that I find worthless.

But hey...that's just my opinion.
 
Just my experiance here as I have kept both corns and ball pythons. I have kept corns since 1996 and kept ball pythons from 1999 til 2005. Before I recieved my ball pythons (I had 3 of them all acquired within a one year period, 2 males and a female), I did alot of research on keeping them, and belonged to a herp club. All 3 of them fed readily on f/t prey, and in that 6 year span one of my males went off feed for nearly a year. He did not lose any weight, but I got in the habit of thawing one less rat and offering him food first, prepared to thaw another if he decided to eat. PITA IMO.
My corns have never had shedding issues, my balls did despite checking and rechecking humidity levels.
My corns never had resp issues, my balls did. Easily corrected but who needs the hassle and the worry?

Even with 3 balls that fed readily on f/t, they were no where near as easy to keep as my colubrids. I ended up rehoming all 3 in 2005 and decided to stick to colubrids.

Buy American, I say! :)
 
tyflier said:
When I address "someone claiming to know", I am addressing whomever wrote the bunk I am debating. If that happens to be you, so be it. Just more of your information that I find worthless.
Click to expand...
I really do get a kick out of your argument. If I specifically state something and you address it with attitude, while taking a pot shot.... especially in your first post. You prove exactly my point. You don't have to drop a name to address someone specifically.

But it's ok. Your more or less being a troll and this point. You aren't winning anything, or going anywhere with a debate. You have nothing educational to put forth on the topic as of late, so you result to attacks. Pretty immature.

I looked at this as a fairly good debate. Like I had said, prepared to get butt hurt if you start flinging poo.
 
AndrewH said:
I really do get a kick out of your argument. If I specifically state something and you address it with attitude, while taking a pot shot.... especially in your first post. You prove exactly my point. You don't have to drop a name to address someone specifically.

But it's ok. Your more or less being a troll and this point. You aren't winning anything, or going anywhere with a debate. You have nothing educational to put forth on the topic as of late, so you result to attacks. Pretty immature.

I looked at this as a fairly good debate. Like I had said, prepared to get butt hurt if you start flinging poo.
Click to expand...

haha wow man he will so pwn you and you will be covered in your own poo if he decides you are worth actual time :rofl:

Just stop dude.
 
AndrewH said:
I really do get a kick out of your argument. If I specifically state something and you address it with attitude, while taking a pot shot.... especially in your first post. You prove exactly my point. You don't have to drop a name to address someone specifically.

But it's ok. Your more or less being a troll and this point. You aren't winning anything, or going anywhere with a debate. You have nothing educational to put forth on the topic as of late, so you result to attacks. Pretty immature.

I looked at this as a fairly good debate. Like I had said, prepared to get butt hurt if you start flinging poo.
Click to expand...

You aren't worth the bandwidth it takes to read your replies.

here's where we stand:

You, a self-proclaimed knowledgeable keeper with 13 years experience. Here is a breakdown of the information you have shared with us just since I cam in to the topic:

1-Ball pythons are no more difficult to feed than any other snake.

2-Ball pythons have no more strict requirements than any other snake

3-Feeding f/t is a waste of time because rodents can't hurt snakes.

4-Ball pythons, in the wild, must not be sensitive to temperature and humidity because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive.

Here are the facts:
1-There are many species of snake readily available in the pet trade, perfect for first-time keepers, that readily accept f/t prey with very little, if any, effort on the part of the owner. MUCH easier than ball pythons. Many species.

2-For ball pythons, temperatures 10-15* too high can result in loss of appetite, and retirement to hide, just as they would in the wild(except there aren't any true burrows in a terrarium). Temperatures 10-15* too low can result in loss of appetite and/or upper respiratory infections. Humidty 20-25% too high can result in stomatitis. Humidity 15-25% too low can result in difficult shedding. These very minor fluctuations in temperature and humidity have little or no impact on a wide variety of different species of snake readily available in the pet trade. MUCH less strict than ball python requirements. Many different species.

3-Dead rodents don't bite or scratch. Live rodents do. Even "appropriately sized" prey items can, will, and do, bite and scratch, causing injury ranging from mildly superficial to deep and permanent. Your information in that arena is not only flat out wrong, it is very unethical and irresponsible.

4-Ball pythons survive in the wild because they have access to a great number of environmental attributes that are not provided for them in captivity. Deep burrows, tall grasses, variable terrain, and wide habitat ranges cannot be provided in captivity to the degree they are ion the wild. This is why BPs in the wild can seek out shelter, habitat, temperature and humidity ranges that suit their specific needs. In captivity, it is our job to provide "optimal" ranges of these requirements. The snake can't go find what it needs, so we have to provide it.

A "good debate" requires 2 things...accurate information to support your arguments, and a willingness to admit that your information is not as solid as you believe it to be when shown opposing data. You don't have either one of those 2 requirements. This isn't a debate, it is a playground argument wherein you decide to threaten people should they dare disagree with you.

Well, dude...I disagree with you. I disagree with your bad information, I disagree with your arguments, and I disagree with your husbandry. I am confident enough to let my replies in this topic speak for themselves. If you think I am ignorant, so be it. Your "advice" will speak for itself. I'm just not so sure it's saying what you think it is...
 
tyflier said:
You aren't worth the bandwidth it takes to read your replies.

here's where we stand:

You, a self-proclaimed knowledgeable keeper with 13 years experience. Here is a breakdown of the information you have shared with us just since I cam in to the topic:

1-Ball pythons are no more difficult to feed than any other snake.

2-Ball pythons have no more strict requirements than any other snake

3-Feeding f/t is a waste of time because rodents can't hurt snakes.

4-Ball pythons, in the wild, must not be sensitive to temperature and humidity because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive.

Here are the facts:
1-There are many species of snake readily available in the pet trade, perfect for first-time keepers, that readily accept f/t prey with very little, if any, effort on the part of the owner. MUCH easier than ball pythons. Many species.

2-For ball pythons, temperatures 10-15* too high can result in loss of appetite, and retirement to hide, just as they would in the wild(except there aren't any true burrows in a terrarium). Temperatures 10-15* too low can result in loss of appetite and/or upper respiratory infections. Humidty 20-25% too high can result in stomatitis. Humidity 15-25% too low can result in difficult shedding. These very minor fluctuations in temperature and humidity have little or no impact on a wide variety of different species of snake readily available in the pet trade. MUCH less strict than ball python requirements. Many different species.

3-Dead rodents don't bite or scratch. Live rodents do. Even "appropriately sized" prey items can, will, and do, bite and scratch, causing injury ranging from mildly superficial to deep and permanent. Your information in that arena is not only flat out wrong, it is very unethical and irresponsible.

4-Ball pythons survive in the wild because they have access to a great number of environmental attributes that are not provided for them in captivity. Deep burrows, tall grasses, variable terrain, and wide habitat ranges cannot be provided in captivity to the degree they are ion the wild. This is why BPs in the wild can seek out shelter, habitat, temperature and humidity ranges that suit their specific needs. In captivity, it is our job to provide "optimal" ranges of these requirements. The snake can't go find what it needs, so we have to provide it.

A "good debate" requires 2 things...accurate information to support your arguments, and a willingness to admit that your information is not as solid as you believe it to be when shown opposing data. You don't have either one of those 2 requirements. This isn't a debate, it is a playground argument wherein you decide to threaten people should they dare disagree with you.

Well, dude...I disagree with you. I disagree with your bad information, I disagree with your arguments, and I disagree with your husbandry. I am confident enough to let my replies in this topic speak for themselves. If you think I am ignorant, so be it. Your "advice" will speak for itself. I'm just not so sure it's saying what you think it is...
Click to expand...
I decided to give up...... What was the point in carrying on....
 
Gotta love it. Take shot after shot ;)
tyflier said:
You aren't worth the bandwidth it takes to read your replies.

here's where we stand:

You, a self-proclaimed knowledgeable keeper with 13 years experience. Here is a breakdown of the information you have shared with us just since I cam in to the topic:

1-Ball pythons are no more difficult to feed than any other snake.

2-Ball pythons have no more strict requirements than any other snake

3-Feeding f/t is a waste of time because rodents can't hurt snakes.

4-Ball pythons, in the wild, must not be sensitive to temperature and humidity because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive.
Click to expand...
I really get a kick out of posts. I really do. Jumble what I have posted all you want. I've re-iterated everything over and over, yet you can't argue so take pot shots.

Tell me this. Where did I say rodent's cannot hurt snakes? I am desperately wanting to know. Rodent's can hurt snakes. But if using proper feeding methods, there shouldn't be a problem.

Here you are, arguing how difficult Ball Pythons have, how much higher maintenance they are, and how they're so sensitive, yet you've shown nothing to back that claim up.

you've made various claims that I've questioned, yet haven't answered. When questioned, you act out like some spoiled child wanting his way. Tough luck.

tyflier said:
Here are the facts:
1-There are many species of snake readily available in the pet trade, perfect for first-time keepers, that readily accept f/t prey with very little, if any, effort on the part of the owner. MUCH easier than ball pythons. Many species.
Click to expand...
And show any real proof outside of documented information from the mid 90's. I am curious to your source for that. How many Ball Pythons have you owned in particular to base your information off of? How many have you bred?

tyflier said:
2-For ball pythons, temperatures 10-15* too high can result in loss of appetite, and retirement to hide, just as they would in the wild(except there aren't any true burrows in a terrarium). Temperatures 10-15* too low can result in loss of appetite and/or upper respiratory infections. Humidty 20-25% too high can result in stomatitis. Humidity 15-25% too low can result in difficult shedding. These very minor fluctuations in temperature and humidity have little or no impact on a wide variety of different species of snake readily available in the pet trade. MUCH less strict than ball python requirements. Many different species.
Click to expand...
Still on that Corn Snake and King Snake kick? LOL. If Ball Python's were as strict as you claim, why are they so popular? Why are they rated as one of the best species available for both beginners and advanced species? Why has their demand been in such high numbers for at least 17 years, if not 20? Their demand hasn't gone down yet. They're starting to 'phase out' a lot of other species that were more available throughout the pet trade.

tyflier said:
3-Dead rodents don't bite or scratch. Live rodents do. Even "appropriately sized" prey items can, will, and do, bite and scratch, causing injury ranging from mildly superficial to deep and permanent. Your information in that arena is not only flat out wrong, it is very unethical and irresponsible.
Click to expand...
Yet I ask for information to prove me wrong, and you cannot supply. Ironic. If my information in that 'arena' is so unethical, why are some of the largest names in this industry using live feeders? As well as that, some of the smallest? Hm.

tyflier said:
4-Ball pythons survive in the wild because they have access to a great number of environmental attributes that are not provided for them in captivity. Deep burrows, tall grasses, variable terrain, and wide habitat ranges cannot be provided in captivity to the degree they are ion the wild. This is why BPs in the wild can seek out shelter, habitat, temperature and humidity ranges that suit their specific needs. In captivity, it is our job to provide "optimal" ranges of these requirements. The snake can't go find what it needs, so we have to provide it.
Click to expand...
If we do not supply such great environmental attributes to this species in captivity, why have they been so prolific in the hobby? As much as you'd like to argue, they don't always get the 'prime' choice for optimum habitat in their native range. They don't always get that 'prey' they attempt to acquire. The list goes on. If you really think that their habitat is that prime, rather than looking at an animal built to survive as that durable, you are ignorant. It's that simple.

tyflier said:
A "good debate" requires 2 things...accurate information to support your arguments, and a willingness to admit that your information is not as solid as you believe it to be when shown opposing data. You don't have either one of those 2 requirements. This isn't a debate, it is a playground argument wherein you decide to threaten people should they dare disagree with you.
Click to expand...
Oh? Show me who I've threatened? As I see it, no individual has been threatened by me. I made a statement that we were going to have problems if you call my information an excuse. If you're that arrogant and cannot accept that fact, that's on you.

As for information, I have put up valid information. As well as that valid information, I've asked you numerous questions which you've yet to answer. You come back with pot shots and baby fits. This was a debate, and a good one at that. You are turning this into a 'who's e-pene is bigger than who's' debate. Don't like it? Don't have to.

tyflier said:
Well, dude...I disagree with you. I disagree with your bad information, I disagree with your arguments, and I disagree with your husbandry. I am confident enough to let my replies in this topic speak for themselves. If you think I am ignorant, so be it. Your "advice" will speak for itself. I'm just not so sure it's saying what you think it is...
Click to expand...
Oh? you disagree, yet you show no proof or fact on why you disagree. You show no information. Nothing. Just your 'facts'. My animals and my practices speak for themselves. Now this is what will boggle you, dude..

If your information is correct, and mine is wrong, why did you have so much difficulty with Ball Pythons before voiding that part of your collection out; yet I have so much success? Quite a conundrum, huh?
 
Ball pythons just aren't 'snakey' enough for me. Too fat in the middle, like squidgy slugs.
(Edit, that won't change anyone's mind if they like 'em, it won't add to this debate about how easy/hard they are to keep either, just an opinion is all it is)
 
deadhorse.gif
 
diamondlil said:
Ball pythons just aren't 'snakey' enough for me. Too fat in the middle, like squidgy slugs.
(Edit, that won't change anyone's mind if they like 'em, it won't add to this debate about how easy/hard they are to keep either, just an opinion is all it is)
Click to expand...

I agree, they just aren't for me... I may change my mind in the future, but for now, they are not my snake :)

Daenerys said:
deadhorse.gif
Click to expand...

Haha :laugh01:
 
It's to bad that this thread has turned in to a school yard pi$$ing contest. :( As someone who is interested in ball pythons I'm interested in all the information I can get on them but this thread has been all about attack after attack and less about balls.

Pretty soon ya'll just whip out a measuring tape and get it over with. :crazy02:
 
So you're telling me that there is such a small risk of your snake DYING that it's ok to feed live? I really don't think there is enough evidence out there to say what the actual statistics are on how likely it is that your snake is going to be injured, but I personally CARE about my animals, and choose to NOT risk their health or well being. It is NOT as dangerous to feed frozen/thawed. A dead mouse CANNOT kill a snake. A dead mouse CANNOT bite or scratch a snake. Frozen/thawed mice have virtually no parasites, bacteria, or other pathogens in them that could hurt a snake. The worst that can happen is the snake eats a piece of bedding (and this only applies if you feed inside the viv) and either a) digests it no problem or b) needs to have it removed by a vet. That is the only real threat that is unique to feeding frozen/thawed. Now lets look at the threats presented by feeding live. Death, scratches, bites, gouged out eyes, injured mouth possibly causing starvation, infections, parasites, bacteria, and a plethora of other injuries. Now you tell me which is safer.

So you're telling me that ball pythons always kill their prey in 5-10 seconds? It never takes any longer than that? What about all the pinkies that get eaten alive, hm? You're telling me that doesn't happen? Even if they DO die in 5 seconds, those are 5 excruciating seconds. Terrifying seconds.

And excuse me pain by CO2 euthanasia? You do realize that they worst they feel is discomfort before passing out, right? At worst, they get scared, pass out, and die. That is NOT comparable to being squeezed to death while your ribs crack, organs burst, you involuntarily and piss yourself and try to scream in terror.

"The fact that it boils down to is dying sucks, and regardless of how much it sucks, the rats die in order to feed our snakes. " by that logic you condone skinning dogs alive. Death sucks, right? And what if someone wanted to eat a dog? Why not just skin it alive and start butchering it right there? Why bother killing it? I mean it dies anyway so who cares?

And tyflier, I know we've had our differences in the past but I agree with you right now.
 
Too often we . . . enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
-John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
VickyChaiTea said:
So you're telling me that there is such a small risk of your snake DYING that it's ok to feed live? I really don't think there is enough evidence out there to say what the actual statistics are on how likely it is that your snake is going to be injured, but I personally CARE about my animals, and choose to NOT risk their health or well being.
Click to expand...
That's right. Have you ever compared a Ball Python that feed's on f/t, side by side, with one that feeds on live? Have you ever felt how differently they feel towards build, their fitness, and their activity? I care about my animals as well, which is why I continue to feed live. Do you really believe I'd risk the lives of any of my animals, if I had ever thought a threat was posed?.... I don't think so. Especially when investing in an animal that could cost me mine, and my families home, if it died.

Like I've said. 13 years, and god knows how many animals produced total, including what I've hatched, and no injuries. That's not coincidental.

As for you feeding frozen thawed, that is your preference, your opinion, and your choice. Nothing more.

VickyChaiTea said:
It is NOT as dangerous to feed frozen/thawed. A dead mouse CANNOT kill a snake. A dead mouse CANNOT bite or scratch a snake. Frozen/thawed mice have virtually no parasites, bacteria, or other pathogens in them that could hurt a snake. The worst that can happen is the snake eats a piece of bedding (and this only applies if you feed inside the viv) and either a) digests it no problem or b) needs to have it removed by a vet. That is the only real threat that is unique to feeding frozen/thawed. Now lets look at the threats presented by feeding live. Death, scratches, bites, gouged out eyes, injured mouth possibly causing starvation, infections, parasites, bacteria, and a plethora of other injuries. Now you tell me which is safer.
Click to expand...
Now show me actual statistics, images, so forth on gouged eyes in Ball Pythons, and other extreme events of damage caused by a properly sized live prey item.

How much has been studied on thiamine break down, amino acid break down, protein break down, etc, of the actual prey item during the freezing process? When it comes to nutrition, you won't see that in live prey, unless feeding emaciated, unhealthy prey. show me how many people have had any type of parasital infections in their Ball Pythons due to feeding live. Bacteria. Etc. I'm very interested...

VickyChaiTea said:
So you're telling me that ball pythons always kill their prey in 5-10 seconds? It never takes any longer than that? What about all the pinkies that get eaten alive, hm? You're telling me that doesn't happen? Even if they DO die in 5 seconds, those are 5 excruciating seconds. Terrifying seconds.
Click to expand...
That's right, 5 to 15 seconds. Show me how many Ball's have grabbed 'pinkies' and swallowed them live. Personally, I don't know of a single person that feeds their Ball Pythons pinky anything. They come out of the egg large enough to take fuzzy rats, right off the bat. I've hatched I don't know how many Pythons in general, not including Balls. Burmese Pythons, African Rock Pythons, Ringed Pythons, Red Blood Pythons, etc. Do you know how many swallowed their prey alive? 0.

Like I've said, dying is dying. At the end of the day, those rodents were bred for one thing. To feed predators.

VickyChaiTea said:
And excuse me pain by CO2 euthanasia? You do realize that they worst they feel is discomfort before passing out, right? At worst, they get scared, pass out, and die. That is NOT comparable to being squeezed to death while your ribs crack, organs burst, you involuntarily and piss yourself and try to scream in terror.
Click to expand...
Terror? By the time they know what hit them, and have the time to yelp, they're out of it and gone. They might have enough time for a leg to twitch or kick. That's more or less involuntary neurological twitching. Have you ever x-rayed or cat scanned a Rat after the animal had constricted it, and proven that organs had burst, ribs had cracked/broken, or any other 'horror' filled episode? The simple thing is they don't. As for defecation/urination during death... have you ever seen the bottom of a CO2 chamber, after it's been used?

As for discomfort, pain is simply another form. They do feel certain amounts of 'pain' during the gassing process. It's like choosing a quick death or drowning. Drowning is painless. At the same time, drowning would be one of the most excruciating death's anyone could experience.

These animals are built to kill their prey as quickly and efficiently as possible. They don't want their prey to struggle. They don't want to have to take minutes to kill prey. They're built to put them out, and put them out quickly. Any struggle, 'screaming', or any other part of the argument you have not only would cause them to expend more energy than they'd rather like to in the wild (possibly life or death), yet that prey 'screaming', or making noise makes them a target for other predators higher up on the food chain.

VickyChaiTea said:
"The fact that it boils down to is dying sucks, and regardless of how much it sucks, the rats die in order to feed our snakes. " by that logic you condone skinning dogs alive. Death sucks, right? And what if someone wanted to eat a dog? Why not just skin it alive and start butchering it right there? Why bother killing it? I mean it dies anyway so who cares?
Click to expand...
Immature attempt at best. Now where do you see me say skinning a dog is anything to rant or rave about? I said dying sucks. These animals are bred to feed our animals, and as much as you'd like to bicker about what you feel is a worse death, they still die to feed our animals. There's no great thing about dying.

Now skinning on the other hand is torture. If you really want to compare skinning to death by a predator built to kill you as quickly and painlessly as possible, you're nuts. There's no other way about it.
 
Can we please just stop. I never meant for my thread to make people fight so if you want to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! Make your own thread!!!!!!
 
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