• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Opinions on WC

Do you agree with wild catching corns?

  • Yes

    Votes: 88 60.3%

  • No

    Votes: 58 39.7%
  • Total voters
    146
wouldnt it stand to reason that if they were not fine with it, or if it was causing a lot of stress that they would go off feed, not to mention bite quite often?



I think you're applying human traits to a reptile. they advancements b/t the 2 are vast, especially when the brain comes into play. To you, it seems that they are "cooped up", when in reality they are prospering just fine.


Side question: Why would you own something, when you oppose catching them in the wild? That snake was born with the same instincts that the W/C are. It's just that you bring him a meal every week, instead of having to search for one.
 
*sigh* looks like I have to go through this whole song and dance again. The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild. WC ones were born to a life of doing whatever they want, are you telling me that the snake feels no stress whatsoever when being handled for perhaps the first time ever, and having to get used to it? Yes that's what CB ones go through too, but again, they were born to it, it would happen to them no matter who purchased them. I love animals, and I don't feel alot of guilt owning them because they have never experienced the wild, but I'd never keep one that had. Maybe I'm applying human traits too much to humans yes, and I do know how their brains work (well, what is generally believed) and I apoligise for that.
 
Elaphe gutatta: we are talking about an ambush feeder. Corns don't chase down food. They will forage when very hungry, and males certainly do some traveling to breed. They risk their lives every time they move. Typically, they lie in wait for a mouse or lizard to wander by. I've caught Elaphe my whole life and only very few were crossing the road or out in the open. Almost every one was found turning things over. An exposed snake is usually a dead snake.

Oh, and all the snakes I've released into the wild were captive-bred.


I believe snakes have NO ability to "miss" being in the wild. Just like I believe that being in the wild is ultimately where they "belong". Snakes will never become a domesticated animal. Even dogs, cats, and cattle were once wild species. Is it right for people to "own" them? I don't struggle with this moral question, personally. I respect that others do, but find it odd that one would be a snake owner. Just out of curiosity, do you have issues with feeding snakes mice?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CAV
No, I don't, but if they refuse to eat, (usually before a shed) and I have to throw the mouse away, then I feel very guilty.
 
The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild.
Click to expand...

this is where your thoughts and mine tend to differ. I personally believe that there is no way to "tame" the traits out of a wild animal through breeding over a period of 50 years or so. Sure, you can breed for traits that are more suited to captivity (such as what we perceive as "tame"). However, if you were to release a group of hatchlings back into the wild, then i think they would have the same chance any snake born in the wild would have. In fact, i think they'd have a better chance, b/c hatching conditions would be prime and they'd be born healthy.* They're actions are based off instinct more so than learned ability. That's why the little ones are usually much more nippy than the adults. We're a perceived threat.

We hear stories of snakes escaping and people finding them 4..5 months sometimes a year later. These snakes didnt live b/c a human was feeding them. They're still wild animals. I think we're confusing some for being domesticated. They're not like dogs or cats. Reptiles work on a completely different level.

As for stress, sure they feel a certain amount of stress, but it's no where near the amount that you are describing. As chip said earlier, reptiles usually dont eat and darn sure they dont breed under conditions that are too stressful.







*Condition: all hatchlings would have to be of wildtype phenotype. of course you could not throw a hypo lav or snow into the wild and expect it to make it to adulthood.

Sidenote: I'm not trying to insult you in any way. I just have a different opinion of what's going on. I have to give you props though, to be 14, you certainly are sticking to ur guns rather well.
 
this is where your thoughts and mine tend to differ. I personally believe that there is no way to "tame" the traits out of a wild animal through breeding over a period of 50 years or so. Sure, you can breed for traits that are more suited to captivity (such as what we perceive as "tame"). However, if you were to release a group of hatchlings back into the wild, then i think they would have the same chance any snake born in the wild would have. In fact, i think they'd have a better chance, b/c hatching conditions would be prime and they'd be born healthy.*
Click to expand...

This isn't what I'm saying, I know that they are never going to be tame that way.
 
The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild.
Click to expand...

that was the point i was arguing. I honestly think this debate will prolly have to end on a stalemate. It really doesnt look like we're gettin anywhere with it. i know there's no convincing me otherwise, and looks that goes for the majority here, no matter what side they are on.
 
Yes, sorry I had to leave for a little while so couldn't explain why that wasn't what I meant. By "The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild." I meant that there's no chance that they'll ever experience the wild, because they are sold as a pet, I'm not saying that they *wouldn't* be able to ajust to the wild.
And I agree, nobody here is changing their minds, I've already debated through all of this earlier on in the thread, let others get a word in, I don't like having to explain over and over.
 
i suppose you have to start somewhere. However, now-a-days, one could just start with a couple CB's. Guess i dont see the need to catch WC's anymore.
 
There are way too many points to argue. People will do things no matter what. And other people will always have an opinion about it. I do understand the point that since there are enough CB leave the WC alone, but again, I own a few WC bullsnakes and az mountain kingsnakes. I didn't HAVE to catch them, I could have bought them. But these are native reptiles to Az, and not many people have them for sale at all. I see both sides of the argument. But without the WC, yes we would have still had CB, but we would have never stumbled on the morphs that make corns so popular (such as your snow).

I do agree with you Snow, and I do find logic in your arguments, but I don't disagree with anyone else either. Out here you don't really find corns in the wild. I would love to go corn-hunting someday on the east coast. Probably not to keep them since I already have enough, but to see my favorite reptiles in their own habitat, so that maybe I will learn how to BETTER care for my CB.

My grandfather always told me, "If it doesn't directly affect you or those around you, leave it alone." I'm in Az, and see no wild corns, so the subject of catching them does not really come up in everyday conversation. As far as I know, there are none in the UK either. Everyone that does hunt for WC does it for their own reasons, and it is legal. Those of us on the outside (like you and I) can have our opinions, but it is merely that.

This thread was an interesting read. I love to hear different opinions. Like was said earlier, "there is nothing like ahealthy debate"
 
I TOTALLY agree with Chip, and I still stand on my stance that you know very little of wild snakes from the way you talk. "Anthropromorphism" Look it up. "Giving human like qualitys to animals". They do not 'feel' like we do, they act on instinct than learned behaivour. I again don't see your reasoning on keeping CB but not WC.
The CB ones were BORN to it, there's no way it would ever go into the wild.
Click to expand...
No way? They are released all the time and do just fine. I have caught a snake, released it caught it, kept it a while, released it and caught it again yet it was still thriving with no problem. (It had the same weird marking and one scar).
Those of us on the outside (like you and I) can have our opinions, but it is merely that.
Click to expand...
That is true, I will have to agree to that. I guess I can be a bit biased about the collecting of corns as it is one of the thing I enjoy and do often, only keeping one or two. I know of only a few people who catch corns for sale and they only catch around 20 usually and they don't sell quick (Not a big demand). Oh well I guess I am done beating this long dead horse. 'Stalemate'
 
bah14 said:
Guess i dont see the need to catch WC's anymore.
Click to expand...
There is a reason to catch wild snakes and it has already been mentioned - the introduction of new blood lines.

I catch about 3 or 4 corns on my farm every year. I have kept a couple of females and one male for breeding and I have sold a few males (to other breeders - not as pets). All others were released. Oops, I forgot, this fall I found a three foot male nearly frozen in my hay barn one morning after a cold front blew in. I am housing him for the winter and will release him in the spring.

I have purchased CB normals to breed with my WC's. I release half of the hatchlings each year, some on the farm and others in the State Forest that borders my farm. In this way I am introducing new blood lines into my local corn population.

As a farmer, I need wild corns on my property to keep the mouse population under check. The mice are attracted to the feed and grain stored on the farm and the corns are attracted to the mice.

I also use my WC corns to educate my neighbors and their farm workers so that they will not kill any corn snakes.

So, if you can explain to me what is wrong with what I am doing then I will listen. Otherwise, I think that you should reconsider your position.
:santa:
 
That's a very unique perspective!

Kudos to you for educating those nonbelievers. ;)
 
Hmm, that IS a unique perspective, if you released ALL of the WC corns in the end I for one would have no problem. And I even give you a thumbs up for taking care of the frozen corn. But how many people do what you do? Not all are as 'generous' IMO.
Crazycorn: I would like to argue again, but won't, I'm tired of the debate between us, stalemate.
 
Itsnowingcorns said:
Hmm, that IS a unique perspective, if you released ALL of the WC corns in the end I for one would have no problem.

So taking adults out of the wild for breeding seasons (ecologically same as killing them) is okay, but releasing a larger number (while keeping the captives) is a problem? I'll end my input on this thread by reiterating
1) If no one ever caught wild snakes, there would be none in captivity.
2) Who do you think should get the honor of arbitrarily deciding that after a certain number in captivity there are "enough?"
Click to expand...
 
Yes, I am removing "adults out of the wild for breeding seasons". But that is NOT the same as killing them. Killing them removes them from breeding forever, not just one or two seasons.

However, I still believe that I am doing more good than harm by introducing new blood lines into the local population AND releasing more snakes than I catch.

I don't expect everyone (or anyone for that matter) to "honor" me for what I do. I only wanted to make others think before they decide that catching wild corns is always wrong.
 
Santa

I agree with everything Santa has stated, including releasing some back into the wild as rodent control. He's right in that the WC corns are the ones used for breeding proposes and strengthening CB blood lines or locality specific species.
Personally I would never buy a WC specimen except for breeding purposes, but I don't have any problem with people collecting them or obtaining in accordance with their local fish and game state rules.
Uncloudy
 
Dear Santa

I was responding to "snowing," not your post. Ecologically speaking, you and I are essentially doing the same thing.
And extra "props" for educating people. That is the most important thing any of us can do for the betterment of the species. Anyone with calm snakes, consider doing a program at a school, church, boys/girls club, any of these places are happy to have someone come in and do a presentation. Especially if you have native local species to teach identification (and bring some photos of local venomous species.) If only one kid leaves wanting to own a snake or at least not kill every one on sight, it is worth our time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top