Corny Noob
Proud Momma
jaxom1957 said:
Exactly.
The place I went with the $130 amel was also stocking parakeets 4-10 to a cage in a size meant for 1-2 :/ I wouldn't trust them.
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Over priced???
- Thread starter darkmorning1
- Start date
Exactly.
The place I went with the $130 amel was also stocking parakeets 4-10 to a cage in a size meant for 1-2 :/ I wouldn't trust them.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
If you think that's bad, you should never shop outside of outlets and bargain warehouses anymore.texastailfeathers said:
The average retail markup for ANY shop is roughly 300%. If you can't mark your product UP 300% from your wholesale purchase price, you will barely cover your expenses.
First of all...when was the last time you saw an actual ADULT corn snake for sale in a pet store? In reality, MOST pet shops, at least the ones I have been to, will heavily discount a snake for sale after it has been there for a year. Why? Because babies are cuter, they cost less to keep, and a "pet owner" doesn't care at all about turning a profit on future breeding...They want a baby that they can raise.
Secondly...when purchasing sub-adults or adults from a reputable breeder, you can pretty much rest assured that this particular animal will come to you free of disease, parasites, feeding problems, or any other issues related to raising a baby.
Thirdly...if breeders started tallying their actual cost per snake and adding it into the price of those babies, including time, electricity, losses, materials, hard goods, food, space and the myriad of other overhead expenses that are simply "part of the job", your little normal hatchling would cost you WELL over the $25 price tag you find on most breeder's websites.
You can say it stinks all you want, but the bottom line is, quite simply, it takes ALOT of time, material, labor, effort, and COST to support and supply those baby hatchlings, let alone a sub-adult or an adult. If actual cost was figured into the sale price of ANY snakes by ANY reputable breeder, nobody would be paying less than $60 for even the most common of morphs.
It is, quite frankly, an expensive business to run. A business in which the MAJORITY of breeders are simply unable to breed full time. Why? Because there simply is not enough profit margin to do so. You have a few that are well-enough established that they no longer need a "day job". But you ask around...the majority of the breeders on this site alone have a day job, and have no plans of quitting anytime soon, simply because the profit margin with the retail value of corn snakes is simply not enough to live on AND support the business.
You might think it stinks to pay sop much for a snake. I think it stinks that people are so picky and greedy that they never consider the cost to the breeder when complaining about the price tag of a morph.
All of this and we haven't even STARTED to discuss the actual cost of losing clutches or breeder females. Other retail business recoup their losses through their sales, why does it "stink" for snake breeders to try and recoup a small semblence of their own cost? It doesn't "stink"...it is business...
darkmorning1
New member
Ok welll umm thanks guys...did not mean to start anything lol :sidestep:
texastailfeathers
New member
Corny Noob said:
Right...the problem that I have with pet stores isn't really about the price. It's the fact that in many (MOST) cases you get 1/4 the quality for 4x the price.
I completely understand charging more for older animals, but I respect that practice more from a breeder that charges REAL care costs than a pet store that charges inflated RETAIL costs.
I'm a breeder. Not reptiles yet, but birds. Warm-blooded cute sweet pet birds. I pull them from their nests at 14 days, keep them in specially heated humid brooders, prepare formula for them 4x a day, and feed them out 'til about 6 weeks weaning age. So believe me, I *understand* cost of care. Adult birds sell for LESS than babies, and handfed babies that require so many hours of personal care and attention only sell for 10-25% more than parent raised babies. Add that to the cost of cages, pest control, food, medical care, socialization, training, etc, and I operate at a significant loss every year.
It's just unfortunate that the mark-up at a pet shop is so disproportionate to the actual level of care the animal receives. Animals receive much better care at the breeder's home, yet the breeder would never get away with charging 4-5x the real value of the animal.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
texastailfeathers said:
You seem to be "lumping together" all pet shops under one roof...and it simply isn't that way. I know of PLENTY of pet stores that take excellent care of their animals, provide quality animals at affordable prices, have only reasonable markups on retail hard goods and feed, and do not participate in price gouging or inhumane practices. It is simply wrong to say "MOST" when discussing things like that, simply because you have not BEEN to "most" pet shops, and quite frankly, you don't know that to be true. Perhaps most of the ones you deal with, or most of the ones in your area are bad...but you cannot tell me that you have even visited the majority of pet stores in existence in order to make such a bold and damning statement.
And you wanna know what? The really good ones don't turn a profit. They barely survive one year to the next, ekeing out a living, and scrimping to pay for every delivery that comes in.
I work in an outstanding pet store that ALWAYS places the care of the animals ABOVE the cost. The owner of my shop will never get rich the way she operates her business. She will be the first to tell you that she is a horrible business person. And she is right...she is. But the animals we have are exceptionally well cared for(we sell birds and reptiles), and every customer that purchases an animal from us has life-time support from us at the shop.
I think that people need to consider a bit more exactly what it takes to run and work in a GOOD pet store, and what is required to operate a reputable breeding business. There is ALOT to it, and unfortunately, retail animal sales are not afforded the ability to HAVE the standard retail 300% markup, like most other retail businesses do. If that opportunity was available, you would see a big difference in the way alot of pet stores are operated.
texastailfeathers
New member
tyflier said:
Well, there are quite a few pet stores in the world. I suppose I could start listing them one by one........
As a very broad general rule, animals receive a lower level of care in retail pet stores than in breeder facilities. Yes, there are exceptions. There are wonderful pet stores and there are horrible breeders. But I don't think anyone would argue that the cornsnakes at [insert large chain name here] do not receive the level of care they would receive from Kathy or Dean or Carol or [insert reputable cornsnake breeder name here]. I never said the animals receive inferior care. Just a lower level of care than what most private breeders provide.
I work directly with pet stores...a lot of them. Pet shops are retail businesses. They rely on profit. If they operate in the negative, they close down. The retail pet trade is an industry, not a conservation operation and not a charitable cause. It's silly and completely incorrect to say otherwise.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
What you said, is "MOST pet stores", your emphasis, not mine. What I said was unless you have BEEN to "MOST" pet stores, you can't make that claim, because you are assuming, and don't really know.
I never stated that pet shops operate "at a loss", I said that the majority of GOOD pet stores that I have been to "barely make a profit", and that they "scrimp to cover the deliveries". That is different than operating at a loss.
Nobody operates a pet shop as a conservation effort, true enough, but their are plenty of them around that put the care of their animals above the cost of said care. You claimed that "MOST" pet stores keep all same species snakes in one cage, perform their cost-markup analysis based on VERY specific(and inaccurate) criteria, and charge 400% more than the worth of the animal. Sorry...but those figures are FAR too exacting to be applied and labeled as a "broad generalization". That is generalizing, to be sure, but is certainly NOT an easy stroke or general consensus. Those are specific figures, assumed to be from specific experiences, and should not be tossed about as "the majority" of practices...which is what you did. You are taking one or a few very specific personal experiences and trying to apply it across the board as "general knowledge", and it simply isn't true. As I said, it may be true in your area, or in the shops you have dealt with, but should not be stated as "true" in a general consensus, because it isn't.
Funny you should make this statement in the exact same topic as the one in which you agreed that charging more for an adult animal "stinks". If that isn't contradictory, than I can't fathom what might be.
In the immortal words of Jazzgeek...I am a huge fan of irony...
I never stated that pet shops operate "at a loss", I said that the majority of GOOD pet stores that I have been to "barely make a profit", and that they "scrimp to cover the deliveries". That is different than operating at a loss.
Nobody operates a pet shop as a conservation effort, true enough, but their are plenty of them around that put the care of their animals above the cost of said care. You claimed that "MOST" pet stores keep all same species snakes in one cage, perform their cost-markup analysis based on VERY specific(and inaccurate) criteria, and charge 400% more than the worth of the animal. Sorry...but those figures are FAR too exacting to be applied and labeled as a "broad generalization". That is generalizing, to be sure, but is certainly NOT an easy stroke or general consensus. Those are specific figures, assumed to be from specific experiences, and should not be tossed about as "the majority" of practices...which is what you did. You are taking one or a few very specific personal experiences and trying to apply it across the board as "general knowledge", and it simply isn't true. As I said, it may be true in your area, or in the shops you have dealt with, but should not be stated as "true" in a general consensus, because it isn't.
Funny you should make this statement in the exact same topic as the one in which you agreed that charging more for an adult animal "stinks". If that isn't contradictory, than I can't fathom what might be.
In the immortal words of Jazzgeek...I am a huge fan of irony...
tricksterpup
I has nuttin to Say.
Come on Dean.. we know you will never get rid of your beautiful snakes to save money. you would just eat Ramen noodles for a while. :grin01:Roy Munson said:
All in all, I do have to say in defense of most stores, they still have an over head to pay for. Such as Rent, electric and other costs that are part of owning a public store. They are there to make Money. Its the bottom line and they have families to feed as well. So seeing a snake for a high price doesn't freak me out. Now would i pay the price for such a snake.. probably not. I personally would want to give my money to local breeders that I know. But if you actually look at this too, that a large portion of the breeders here have jobs and this hobby is a secondary income. We can sell our snakes cheaper due to this fact. I know if my hobby became my sole income, I would be selling my animals as high as I could sell them for.
But I would rather be eating Ramen before selling any of my snakes. :grin01:
tricksterpup
I has nuttin to Say.
Nothing started, actually a great conversation and a lot of good opinions like Kathy stated.darkmorning1 said:
Yeah, those slimy shop owners!!!! How dare they want to pay for food, a house, their kid's schooling, a car payment, doctor bills etc., etc. Pardon my sensitivity but for a major portion of my life I have made my living in Retail, most of it with animals. I never felt guilty about the prices I put on animals or stock. And I never felt the need to justify my actions as I was trying to make a living for my family. People have choices--to buy or not to buy! I sold top quality animals and customers were satisfied. I feel sorry for the good, honest retailers that are abused because they are trying to make a living among folks that often feel they exist only to satisfy their desires for the cheapest animals around!!! Well, so much for my $.02. I haven't been in Retail Sales for more than 20 years. Know I'm into reclamation!!!!!!! And I'll always have a job!!! I'm a Pastor!!!! Shalom, Y'all!!!!
jaxom1957
No one can own just one
In my experience, privately owned petshops usually have knowledgable staff and well cared for animals. However, privately owned petstores are becoming few and far between. Many have been driven from the market place by chain stores with poorly informed staff (many seem to be teenagers willing to work for low pay) and poorly kept animals. Where most private owners are in the pet business because of their own love of animals, chain stores are owned by white-collar execs who have little or no interest in the products they sell beyond the profit margin. Even those staff members who honestly care about the welfare of the animals can do little to improve the conditions under which they are kept, as corporate will not spend the money necessary to make the improvements so long as they can continue to make a profit with the status quo.Pat GC said:
Most of my local pet related purchases are made from a privately owned petstore that specializes in tropical fish. Ted, the owner, carries small birds and supplies for most pets, but he doesn't carry either reptiles or rodents, save as frozen food. His prices are competitive, oftentimes lower than the chain store two blocks away, though his store may sometimes exhibit an atmosphere reminiscent of a used book store: a little dust here and there, a bit of wear and tear on the displays and carpet, the store tucked away in a corner of the shopping center where too few people are likely to happen upon it by chance alone. For the twenty years I've lived in town, he's provided friendly service and advice back by decades of experience. I don't begrudge Ted a penny of his profits and I don't look forward to the day he retires and closes the shop.
I won't say the same for either the PetCo or the PetSmart that also serve the area. Their animals are job-lotted from who knows where, are kept in conditions that often lead to their premature deaths, and the advice the staff gives to customers buying their animals is likely to bring the customer back not because they are so happy with the pet they want another but because they need to replace the one they killed by following it.
If this doesn't describe how you treated the animals you sold or the conditions under which they were kept, bravo. If it does, shame on you and shame on every penny the sale brought you.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
I actually agree with Jaxom. Unfortunately, we live in a day and age where Big Bix Stores outnumber the mom-and-pop shops nearly 3 to 1. And whose fault is that???
I'll tell you whose fault it is...it is the fault of consumers that are always out looking for the cheapest possible prices, rather than the best possible quality. The same applies to Big Box Pet Stores as it does to Big Box Retailers. PetCo is the Kmart of the pet shop world. You get what you pay for, and usually...that is bad advice, and poor quality products.
What's even more unfortunate is that these chain shops can afford to purchase many more animals and sell them at a lower price because their profit margins are not determined by a singular location. With 1,000 or so stores across the country from whence to make your profits, you have a MUCH wider margin.
So people get used to seeing the prices for an animal at PetCo or PetSmart, or Pets-R-Us, or wherever, and expect Ma & Pa Kettle to be able to compete. They never see the quality of care difference between the two situations, and since Big Box is usually cheaper, guess where the money goes?
Or worse...they say that MOST pet stores provide the level of care that they see at the Big Bix Discount Pets down the road...
I'll tell you whose fault it is...it is the fault of consumers that are always out looking for the cheapest possible prices, rather than the best possible quality. The same applies to Big Box Pet Stores as it does to Big Box Retailers. PetCo is the Kmart of the pet shop world. You get what you pay for, and usually...that is bad advice, and poor quality products.
What's even more unfortunate is that these chain shops can afford to purchase many more animals and sell them at a lower price because their profit margins are not determined by a singular location. With 1,000 or so stores across the country from whence to make your profits, you have a MUCH wider margin.
So people get used to seeing the prices for an animal at PetCo or PetSmart, or Pets-R-Us, or wherever, and expect Ma & Pa Kettle to be able to compete. They never see the quality of care difference between the two situations, and since Big Box is usually cheaper, guess where the money goes?
Or worse...they say that MOST pet stores provide the level of care that they see at the Big Bix Discount Pets down the road...
I think there are several types of pet stores. The specialty store sells one kind of animal, e.g., birds, fish, reptiles. Specialty stores, for the most part are owned and staffed by hobbyists. In fact, I have never been in an aquarium shop, bird shop, or reptile specialty store that didn't have knowledgeable people.
For the most part aquarium shops make most of their money on equipment. The fish, especially, freshwater fish, are relatively inexpensive. Now, there are exceptions. Koi can cost over a $1,000 a piece. However, you are not going to find the collector specimens in a retail shop.
Bird stores, on the other hand, rely on the cost of the bird for profit. Caging can be expensive. While some finches and budgies (what most people call parakeets) are inexpensive, most birds are hundreds of dollars and it's not unusual to spend over a thousand for a parrot.
Reptiles do come with a lot of specialty equipment and food can get pricey, but corn snakes are very inexpensive comparatively. When I see python morphs for $25,000, $600 lavender bloods look pretty cheap.
The pet superstores, PETCO, PETSMART, et al, make their money selling stuff, not pets. I suspect that many of their outlets lose money on their pet sales. Their pet food is four times the price of what we pay at WALMART. The recent pet food recall blew away the myth of premium pet food, I mean some of the food was being marketing under 15 different names...but I digress.
I have bred and sold dogs, cats, birds, and fish for over 30 years, I turned a profit in only one year. Admittedly, I only tried to make a profit for five or six years. However, my point is we are the beneficiaries of people who love what they are doing and who are willingly to sell us their animals at a loss or for a very small profit.
For the most part aquarium shops make most of their money on equipment. The fish, especially, freshwater fish, are relatively inexpensive. Now, there are exceptions. Koi can cost over a $1,000 a piece. However, you are not going to find the collector specimens in a retail shop.
Bird stores, on the other hand, rely on the cost of the bird for profit. Caging can be expensive. While some finches and budgies (what most people call parakeets) are inexpensive, most birds are hundreds of dollars and it's not unusual to spend over a thousand for a parrot.
Reptiles do come with a lot of specialty equipment and food can get pricey, but corn snakes are very inexpensive comparatively. When I see python morphs for $25,000, $600 lavender bloods look pretty cheap.
The pet superstores, PETCO, PETSMART, et al, make their money selling stuff, not pets. I suspect that many of their outlets lose money on their pet sales. Their pet food is four times the price of what we pay at WALMART. The recent pet food recall blew away the myth of premium pet food, I mean some of the food was being marketing under 15 different names...but I digress.
I have bred and sold dogs, cats, birds, and fish for over 30 years, I turned a profit in only one year. Admittedly, I only tried to make a profit for five or six years. However, my point is we are the beneficiaries of people who love what they are doing and who are willingly to sell us their animals at a loss or for a very small profit.
texastailfeathers
New member
tyflier said:
You're funny. :grin01: This is entertaining, but I think I'm going to step out of the discussion now. I learned many years ago that logic has no place in an emotional argument. It is noble of you to defend your profession so strongly.
Yo Jaxom!!!
Good post!!! You're right on. Mom/Pop stores will be/now are a thing of the past because they can't compete. Whether it's PetCo, PetSmart, WalMart whatever. They don't count on customer relations nor quality of product. They order in Bulk numbers with price leaders. If they sell a bird, snake, lizard, whatever, great. If not, so what. The bucks are in the supplies. Back in the dark ages, when I was in High School, I started working for Safeway Grocery Stores. We allocated 80% of floor space to groceries and 20% to non-foods. Look at grocery stores today and see how much floor space is given Non-foods. It might be as high as 60-70%. That's where the $$$$ is. I miss the old, Mom/Pop store where they knew my name (sounds like Cheers, doesn't it?) and they knew what the animals needed. As a matter of conscience, common sense and quality I purchase animals from breeders and supplies from trusted Supply sellers. And I constantly check the BOI for reports on sellers.
Shalom,
Pat
Good post!!! You're right on. Mom/Pop stores will be/now are a thing of the past because they can't compete. Whether it's PetCo, PetSmart, WalMart whatever. They don't count on customer relations nor quality of product. They order in Bulk numbers with price leaders. If they sell a bird, snake, lizard, whatever, great. If not, so what. The bucks are in the supplies. Back in the dark ages, when I was in High School, I started working for Safeway Grocery Stores. We allocated 80% of floor space to groceries and 20% to non-foods. Look at grocery stores today and see how much floor space is given Non-foods. It might be as high as 60-70%. That's where the $$$$ is. I miss the old, Mom/Pop store where they knew my name (sounds like Cheers, doesn't it?) and they knew what the animals needed. As a matter of conscience, common sense and quality I purchase animals from breeders and supplies from trusted Supply sellers. And I constantly check the BOI for reports on sellers.
Shalom,
Pat
Corny Noob
Proud Momma
I'd just like to say, while we've already discovered that we should not lump all random petstores in to one crappy quality I also feel that we should not lump all random petcos into one crappy quality :/
I happen to work at petco in the fish, and more so now the reptile department, and I get very involved when I see someone that has no idea what they're doing. Since I've gotten a snake I think I've sold about 5 copies of Kathy's book, and like I said I'm technically not even in reptiles. All the people in my store who are actually in the animal departments know a lot about them, and sometimes refuse to sell animals to rampant dumb asses. So please don't assume we're all mindless drones. It certainly isn't for the money, because I'm only making $7.40/hr
I happen to work at petco in the fish, and more so now the reptile department, and I get very involved when I see someone that has no idea what they're doing. Since I've gotten a snake I think I've sold about 5 copies of Kathy's book, and like I said I'm technically not even in reptiles. All the people in my store who are actually in the animal departments know a lot about them, and sometimes refuse to sell animals to rampant dumb asses. So please don't assume we're all mindless drones. It certainly isn't for the money, because I'm only making $7.40/hr
Whoa, Noob, sorry if I offended!!!! You are the exception in my experience. And it isn't the employee's fault anyway. Management tends to look for a body, any body, to be a clerk!!! I'm glad you are there. At least the Herps have a chance in the store you work at. Hang in there and keep up the good customer service!!!!
Shalom,
Pat
Shalom,
Pat