PLEASE HELP!

[axis1]

Would assist feeding help? That guy from snake bytes said it sometimes works although if the snake is being sick is probably not recommended...

I believe that assist-feeding, especially at this point, wouldn't be the recommended way to go, as that is what's usually done with snakes who refuse to eat or like my hatchling, NEVER ate, to maybe spark the feeding response in the animal! This particular snake that's being discussed has eaten several times. But for some reason, it's keeping the food down that has been the problem, so the focus has shifted to the size of the prey (hence the discussion about pinky heads) while ensuring the optimal temperature range is in effect. So at this point it's probably best to wait a couple to a few days, and then try again, my suggestion being with treating the head with Dawn as the owner already tried boiling and braining it (most people who own snakes never thought they'd EVER be messing with baby mice heads and other parts, including tails!)!!

If you're a determinist or someone who believes everything happens for a reason, then no matter the outcome, you'll appreciate the road taken. Big not, well. . . I guess that's why I believe everything happens for a reason?

Who knows? I never thought owning a corn snake would lead to waxing philosophically!! But sometimes, when stuff gets down to dealing with pinky heads & tails, the he subject matter can get eerily like Kafka on Wheels!!!!! I for one sure hope this story has a happy ending!!!!

 

[Carnelian]

I tried feeding him the head again and no luck I left him with it overnight last night. It is about 9pm where I am and Neal is really active right now (he is looking for ways to escape). Since he has swallowed a pinky three times (though regurgitated twice) should I risk feeding him a whole one? He doesn't seem to want to eat just the head and I can't let him starve. But I don't want him to regurge again.

 

[axis1]

I tried feeding him the head again and no luck I left him with it overnight last night. It is about 9pm where I am and Neal is really active right now (he is looking for ways to escape). Since he has swallowed a pinky three times (though regurgitated twice) should I risk feeding him a whole one? He doesn't seem to want to eat just the head and I can't let him starve. But I don't want him to regurge again.

I'm really sorry you're still dealing with this! Bummer!

If it were my snake, at THIS juncture, I would try giving him the smallest pinky you could find, maybe even slice it a couple of times as Nanci suggested earlier, if you truly believe he'd go for it!! Especially also if he looks like he's hunting for food! But it's hard to tell and I definitely don't wanna give you the wrong advice and since I already admitted to unintentionally harming one of my own hatchlings because of a lack of patience, it's with that sentiment that I would prefer for you to wait a little until someone more knowledgeable chimed in.

Hopefully really soon!!

 

[axis1]

Hi Carnelian!

OK, It's been more than enough time and I'm seeing that no one else has chimed in on this issue, so if you're little guy is still actively looking for something, I would say to go for it tonight (it's like 7:30pm NY time, so in a few hours you'll have caught up and hopefully you'll see this prior to official prey-hunting time for snakes in your area!).

While I was out shopping for mice today, I saw some really small pinkies that I was tempted to snatch up in bulk for my upcoming brood of hatchlings (despite the fact that I always preach not to count the eggs until the pippies have hatched!) and it reminded me of your situation because of the need for small pinks. I never even thought they came that small and was actually kinda pissed at the guy for trying to charge $2 a piece for pinkies as small as a pearl!! (I definitely hafta do some online shopping for day-old pinkies in bulk!).

Sorry for the digression as I'm out of Adderal lately! :crazy02: (I've actually found that humor sometimes works as a distraction from stressful situations while one can actually regroup and/or refuel as necessary!).

But whatever happens, please keep me posted!! I'm sure that there's many others besides me who care about your little sneaky one!!!

 

[DLena]

This is a stab in the dark, but could it actually be the mice? I had a situation: when I first got a snake, I bought quite a few packs of pinkies from a pet shop. She ate them just fine, and then wouldn't and she refused to eat for almost three weeks. I did everything, and then I bought new ones from a different store so it was a different brand, and fresher. She ate them. Maybe you need to snag a different brand of pinkie. Maybe yours are a little freezer burned. IDK... I'm trying to help. I'm so sorry this is still going on. I'm not an expert, I've only had snakes since February. Please keep us posted.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Since nobody else has asked this question -

What is the temperature of the mouse (mice) that you offer the snake? If they are too cold the snake won't be interested, and if they are too hot they can burn and injure the snake. The food item should be "Normal Body Temp" for a mouse so the snake thinks it's alive. A temp of about 95 to 100 degrees usually works for me.

I thaw the mice in the refrigerator overnite, and then when ready to feed I place them in hot tap water. (My hot water comes out of the tap at 122 degrees). I don't microwave the mice or boil them. (Snakes don't cook their food in the wild). When the temp of the water reads 100 degrees I take out the mouse and offer it to the snake. It usually takes about 15 minutes for the mouse to reach proper temp. Since I am feeding large mice and you are feeding pinkies, your temp will be reached much quicker.

My snake grabs the mouse instantly as soon as I dangle it over his head.

 

[Carnelian]

Thanks everyone for your input. I am being forced to move Neal temporarily out of my house until the landlord drops by (no pets allowed) so he will be staying with my boyfriend, who gave him to me, for a few months. I was going to try to feed him again tonight but I will need to move him fairly soon, within the next couple of weeks, so should I attempt to feed him one more time or move him first, then feed him after he settles in a few days later?
I did some research online on places I could purchase extra small pinkies. I was successful in finding some websites that sell them for an affordable rate (about 20 to 50 cents per pinky) but shipping takes at least a week (and adds $30-$50 to the total cost). My bf suggested trying half a pinky once before opting to buy the extra small ones, although I'm really worried about Neal at this point and am willing to try anything.
To answer your question about the mouse temp, I honestly could not tell you. I was told to thaw the mouse in room temperature water for about 15-20 minutes and then dip the pinky in hot water for a few seconds. That seemed to work the first time, but apparently not since. I know for sure that the pinky isn't 95 to 100 degrees based on the methods we have been trying. I will try thawing the pinky now and put it in warmer water tonight. I will feed him about three and a half hours from now, since the pinky is smaller and won't require much time to thaw half a pinky.
I'll report back my findings if Neal hasn't eaten by tomorrow morning.
Thanks a ton all of you!!!! :bowdown:

 

[Carnelian]

Another update: Neal did not eat the half-pinky last night.
The steps I took to feed him:
I cut the pinky horizontally (so it was a full head and part of the body) while it was frozen, and put it back in the little plastic bag it came it. I thawed it in room temperature water fro an hour and a half. By that time, the bag was bloody and it was completely thawed, so I took Neal out of his cage and put him in his deli cup. I drained the room temp. water and took the half-pinky out of the bag and put it in hotter water to increase the temperature of the pinky piece. I set a timer for 15 minutes and took the pinky out of the water and dry it off by patting it with a paper towel. I took metal tweezers and used it to wiggle it in front of Neal, but he was only interested in it for about 30 seconds before moving on. I placed the half-pinky in there with him, after 5 minutes of wiggling, and secured a wet paper towel over the deli cup (since he escaped the deli cup before, I punctured small holes in the paper towel and used a rubber band around the paper towel so I thought it would be extremely hard to escape). I checked back in an hour later and found that the pinky was still there. I checked this morning and found that he was outside his deli cup (how is beyond me) and the food was untouched.
I feel like I've tried everything and it's really making me stressed and concerned at this point. I have no idea what to do. Any other thoughts on different procedures I should try are appreciated. I'm going to try to get my bf to agree with me to buy the smaller pinkies, although he isn't convinced it will change anything.

 

[axis1]

Thanks everyone for your input. I am being forced to move Neal temporarily out of my house until the landlord drops by (no pets allowed) so he will be staying with my boyfriend, who gave him to me, for a few months. I was going to try to feed him again tonight but I will need to move him fairly soon, within the next couple of weeks, so should I attempt to feed him one more time or move him first, then feed him after he settles in a few days later?
:bowdown:

If you're not moving him for a few weeks, then I would wait a couple of days and try again, preferably with a small pinky or the head & shoulders of a larger one. The thing is to wait a while so that some time has passed from the stress he went through from his last feeding attempt and also to hopefully build up some hunger to provoke a feeding response. The good thing is that he HAS eaten before!

I don't think you have to warm it up that long, but room-temp to lukewarm is probably OK. And if you put him in a deli cup you DON'T need to poke holes in it unless you plan on leaving him in it for a WHILE! Snakes don't run out of air that quickly. I didn't really understand your post about poking holes in a paper towel? I can tell you right off that that WON'T be successful EVER! Unless I misunderstood. I think if you put a hatchling in a container of any type that is NOT SECURE that you are wasting your time because the hatchling will naturally try getting OUT even before eating sometimes and THAT'S where he will put all of his energy if he senses a weakness. If it's closed tight and he has no choice, THEN he will (hopefully) divert his attention where it belongs - on the pinky! I hope this makes sense. If not, please let me know. I apologize for rambling but it's the best way for me to write because that's how I think! (My wife has learned how to "turn me off," sorta! Because I do that out LOUD TOO! The ONLY time I can control it is at work listening to clients - or I would be the WORST psychotherapist on the face of the Earth!!!!).

I really hope that your next effort is fruitful! That must REALLY TRULY SUCK!! Sorry you're going through that! I know you really LOVE your little sneaky one!!!

 

[DollysMom]

I disagree with the no air holes. Stuff happens and if you don't get back and open it in time-- well, the air holes are insurance.

You need a deli cup or something similar with tiny air holes and a secure lid. You lay a dry paper towel loosely over it to give privacy. You follow Nanci's feeding guide. You go around to several stores until you find the size pinky you need. You look up and call your local herpetological society to get help (they may be able to supply 1 day pinkies aka reds.). There is more you can try to do.

http://reptiles-northern-ca.com/herpetology/

http://www.baars.org

http://nbherps.org

Ps. I just realized I was a little forceful there. I want Neal to eat and to live. We all want Neal to eat and to live. Prayers continue.

 

[axis1]

I disagree with the no air holes. Stuff happens and if you don't get back and open it in time-- well, the air holes are insurance.
. . .

Ps. I just realized I was a little forceful there. I want Neal to eat and to live. We all want Neal to eat and to live. Prayers continue.

Forceful? :eek1:

You are AWESOME Dollysmom! I want you in MY corner ANY & ALL the time!!!

BTW - I stand corrected on the air holes; didn't think of that; and I should, as I AM an AIRHEAD sometimes!!

 

[DLena]

Thank you, Dolly's Mom.

 

[DollysMom]

Forceful? :eek1:

You are AWESOME Dollysmom! I want you in MY corner ANY & ALL the time!!!

BTW - I stand corrected on the air holes; didn't think of that; and I should, as I AM an AIRHEAD sometimes!!

That is why this is a community. We all can't think of everything. You have a good heart, Axis.

Thank you, Dolly's Mom.

You are welcome. My thoughts and prayers for Carnelian and Neal continue.

 

[Carnelian]

Hello everyone,
Neal was moved last Monday (6/20) and we tried to feed him last night (6/24). So we did give him some time to settle in. I'm just worried he will starve at this point because he hasn't digested food in so long.
My bf found an extra small pinky at a local pet store and cut slits into the pinky to make it easier to digest. However he did escape his feeding container once again so we are looking at different options: either a deli cup with a lid that has holes, or a larger container he can't escape from. When feeding is it better for the snake to be placed in a larger or smaller area? I looked at some videos and noticed that people used all different sizes for their snake.
We will try again Monday night, but I honestly don't know how much longer he can go without food (his last meal that wasn't regurgitated was given to him 5/19). I feel as though we only have a few more chances and I can't imagine what Neal must be going through
A new method we thought of trying, besides changing the feeding container, was to give him time alone in the feeding container for about half an hour before feeding him. I think that he gets stressed when we pick him up to move him out of his enclosure so I thought that giving him time to adjust would help him eat.
Again, I really appreciate all your advice and commentary. It is helpful in this stressful situation.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Don't try to over do it. Too much stress will only make the snake continue not to eat.

As with most things in life, routine and repetition can be greatly beneficial. Do it the same way over and over and over, and the snake will get used to it and comfortable with it. If it's "Different" every time you handle him or feed him, he's just going to be confused and freak out more.

I've heard of folks with a snake that refused to eat, simply placing the snake in a box or even a brown paper bag, place the mouse inside the container with the snake, close up the container, turn out the lights, and just walk away. No poking or prodding, no peeking in on him every 5 minutes, no constant moving about, just walk away and leave him alone.

After about 4 hours go check. If the mouse is gone, obviously he ate it, and if the mouse is not gone, obviously he's not going to eat it. Put him back in his cage and try again in 3 days.

Having said this, I've also heard stories of some baby snakes that just never learned to eat properly or have forgotten how. This is why I tend to tell people not to buy Hatchlings, rather start out with a 3 or 4 month old snake that is already eating well.

A snake that refuses to eat will eventually die unless it is Force Fed, and even if force fed, they usually regurgitate it anyway. If you don't know how to force feed, don't try it. It should only be done by someone that knows how.

 

[DollysMom]

In this case the container needs to be small. About the size of the deli cup most baby snakes arrive in. The idea is that he can't get away from the pinky. I used to put snake and pinky in together, leave it on the cool side of the viv in the dark, loosely covered with a paper towel, and come back 1.5 to several hours later to find the pinky gone.

This is an old pic, but this is the size (minus the bedding). This is the deli cup and this snake was fed as described above for the first couple of feedings until she got the hang of it.

This is strictly opinion, but your instinct about letting him settle down may be correct. Seems worth a try to me.

The above is the extent of my experience in getting a reluctant feeder to eat, so I'll leave it to others to give further advice.

My heart is with you and little Neal <3

 

[axis1]

Hi Carnelian!

Seems like you're in this for the long haul. There's not too much to add that others haven't already said except that I understand the frustration that results from a hatchling who won't eat. In Neal's case, your frustration is compounded by the fact that he has eaten before, so it's not exactly like trying to get a snake to eat for the first time. But the experiences of regurgitating multiple times may still be fresh in his memory. That sucks!

However, it is not time to throw in the towel. I also don't think it is time to think of force-feeding (though assist-feeding may be imminent - there IS a HUGE difference between the two). I had two hatchings go up to 3 months without ever eating, though I understand you don't even want to get past THIS month with this problem continuing.

Have you followed the list Nanci suggested? Also, have you tried Dawn? You might be pleasantly surprised! (I'm the ETERNAL OPTIMIST! I have 17 eggs that will hopefully be hatching in the next month and I look forward to the challenge!)

While Karl may be right about your snake either not learning how to eat correctly or even forgetting how, and while you may want to heed his advice about getting a slightly older snake in the future, you've already got Neal and it doesn't appear you're giving up on him now. Should he survive, I can guarantee your relationship with him will be even that much stronger! Hang in there baby!!!

You and your little sneaky one remain in my thoughts and prayers!

 

[Carnelian]

Yet another update.
Last night we tried feeding him (four days from the previous attempt). We finally got a chance to weigh Neal. He is exactly 4.86 grams (super small I think). Thee smallest pinky we had was 1.7 grams. We got a tall deli cup and placed him inside for 45 minutes. We fed him a pinky that had been thawed for an hour and then put in warmer water for a few seconds. We simply placed the pinky inside the deli cup with Neal and left him completely alone (all attempts to get him to bite the food previously were in vain). The lid had slits on it and we placed a dry paper towel over it to give him privacy. The room does not have lights so he would be completely undisturbed. This morning we discovered he had not eaten it.
I'm still considering getting extra small pinkies for him online but they won't arrive soon enough. If I were to take him to the vet would they be able to help? I can't see them getting him to eat if we couldn't and I don't believe he is sick. I'm up for the option but would like to know if it would make a difference or it will just stress him out more.

 

[axis1]

Wow. Whatta bummer! I'm not certain what a vet could or would do right now and I understand what a frustrating experience you are having. Few things are worse than having a beloved pet that is either sick or starving itself and it feels like you are powerless. All I can do is to offer moral support and encourage you to try once again in a couple of days.

Did you ever try the Dawn trick? (Just thaw a small pinky in warm water treated with a drop of Dawn dishwashing liquid and then rinse with warm water and serve as is - Pinky a la Dawn!). If this fails, then a couple days later, I would research "assist-feeding" which is basically "tease-feeding." But you have to do this correctly as you risk scaring the snake into an aversion towards food, but then again, you're almost there anyway, right?

(Sorry! I wish there was something else I could suggest.)

Hang on in there! Don't give up!

 

[WillowBug]

Carnelian I hope your snake eats and doesn't regurgitate but don't give up hope.