questions about morphs

[Drizzt80]

Wrong - breeding locality animal with an animal from the same locality gives you again animals with locality.
The thing is, you just want to make shure, that you pair animals that would have also met in nature or could have met. So, this F1 are locality animals, but CB and not WC.

Well Menhir, the point of my post was to indicate that if the so called 'purists' on locality truly want to be purists, then you can't call a captive bred Jasper Co. Okeetee in Texas a 'true' Okeetee even if both parents were locality specimens. Serp said it best I think indicating that even though restricted to their own kinds, lines diverge from the wild type due to our own pressures of selecting our breeding populations. Basically the 'purist' argue locality, locality, locality but then proceed to breed them captively outside the boundaries of the 'special Okeetee area'. Kinda like a PETA vegetarian animal rights activist that wears leather shoes and drives a car.

D80

 

[Vinman]

Another perspective of this is that once a human being decides which male breeds with which female, then the selection of of what offspring are being produced is no longer "natural". Someone collecting a half dozen specimens from dead center in the Okeetee Hunt Club, and deciding to keep only the best pair of them to breed, has now introduced an unnatural selection process in the future generations of that line of animals. So regardless of the fact that they may have originated directly from the Hunt Club, the offspring are no longer naturally occuring examples of Okeetee Corns. And has been pointed out, every subsequent generation, where humans will tend to selectively breed from those produced offspring, takes you further away from those "true" naturally occuring Okeetee Corns. In this context, I am assuming that "pure" in this argument relates to NATURAL Okeetee Corns. So the simple fact that the guiding hand of a human being has a bearing on the subsequent generations in a captive bred situation negates anyone from claiming that those baby Okeetee corns they are selling can be truly defined as being "pure".

Another issue is that all animals ARE what they eat. And what you eat determines what you are. How many people working with "pure" Okeetee corn snakes are also collecting the "pure" feed items from the Okeetee Hunt Club to feed those animals? Animals are certain colors simply because of the environment they live in and the influence it also has on the dietary supplements they get from their prey. So once anyone takes an Okeetee Corn Snake out of it's natural habitat and feeds it ONE mouse that did not also come from that area, haven't you began the change in that animal into something else?

I am sorry, but I have heard this locality argument for decades now. No one has yet been able to present a convincing argument for it being a valid technical concept. ALL arguments have always ended in something like "Well, that's what I believe in and that is that!" Everything having to do with the defense of the "locality culture" is based on personally arbitrary definitions. Which really is fine with me, but don't try to shove it down anyone's throat if they don't agree with you.

rich this is pure hog wash #1 I dont know what you see when you hatch out a clutch of okeetees I see a whole lot of variability in the clutch just like the wild . I seen wild caught pr both caught in the same spot so total diffrent looking and some look the sane and everything in between. dont give that human intervention crap the corns in the okeetee are variable. even when you line breed them that is why most of us that breed true okeetees keep not only the pretty ones sometimes you have to save one that might have color but doesnt have much black to one that has a lot of black to get a sceramer okeetee and tha animal has all the gens good and bad so his offspring wont be all scremers only a few, a small percent. it is other genes that pollute the gene pool. When was the last time you owned a pure okeetee
when was the last time that you bred pure jasper Co corns together. As of 2 years ago you told me it been many years.
#2 what kinda of garbage are you trying to feed everybody you are what you eat this is the most bogus thing I ever heard you just have to laugh. You mean that my corns that come from the okeetee and their offspring look diffrent from the okeetees in the wild because of the diffrent rodents that they eat . so my col must look more diffrent that any corns in the hobby. Because I feed them pork ,chicken , and turky . boy talking about pulling starws comon rich this is the biggest bull kaka you ever said I 'm so supprised this came out of your mouth LOL vinny

 

[Vinman]

Driss you have noiedawhat you are talking so I'm not maltese because I'm born in th USA anr A pure african born in the US looks diffrent from one born in africa . Mabe the ones that came from slave stock because other races have mix in . Okeetee that are 10 gen are genictly the same stock and all the same genes

 

[Serpwidgets]

Okeetee that are 10 gen are genictly the same stock and all the same genes

Absolutely false.

1- Not all genes in the "Hunt Club Pool" will be represented in the original breeding group.

2- Some of the existing "Hunt Club Pool" genes will be deselected and removed from the captive pool.

3- New mutations (which do not exist in the "Hunt Club Pool") will either creep in unnoticed, or even be selected for.

This is the very nature of DNA-based life, and it is exactly why the snakes from the Hunt Club do not look identical to snakes from southern Florida, even though they share common ancestors.

 

[Menhir]

I do on the one hand agree to what Rich said, and on the other hand I do not. (I'm quite shure, that I'll get bached for it but who cares...)

It's true, that you do not have "natural" snakes anymore, as soon as you collect something it can't be natural anymore.
BUT, that argument hits everything in our hobby and I think thats a quite unfair thing with this explanation (collecting the mice to eat and so on...).

Many people keep and breed animals as natural as possible in captivity, some because they have fun doing so, some to safe the species from beeing gone in the wild and so on. Imho it's a quite good argument when someone wants to keep animals and breed them, that could have possibly met and mate in nature. Thats at least a "technical" convince of this concept and is also used by zoo's and all that stuff in the world.

I don't care about the hole natural thing, I don't think that doing so is better or worse than the way me and you keep snakes - what I said was an objective analysis of the "locality" thing free of personal taste.
If you ask me, I don't care about locality and I hate it when people bash me cause "my animals" would never live in the wild and so on.But I accept it as personal preference to keep "locality" animals the same way I wish from others to accept my preference for genetic-mix-and-match animals.

 

[Rich Z]

Before we address the issue of "hogwash", Vinny, please answer the questions I posed to you about the locality issues.

Now about the hogwash comment. We are discussing an issue here as adults, in a mature manner, and trying to keep it that way. Some people are here to learn and comment about things of interest to them. If you feel somehow that your belittling someone else somehow raises your esteem in their eyes, then you better take a step back and reassess the situation. Just because your opinion may be different then someone elses does not make an opposing view as "hogwash".

 

[Hurley]

VERY well said.

 

[E. g. guttata]

Alright, lte's just assume for a minute that everything reguarding the locality argument is true. Let's assume that an okeetee from a locality is more special than a normal that looks like the best okeetees around. Let's also assume that the only reason the term okeetee is used is because people are trying to make an extra $5 on a sale. Now I pose this question: Unless specifically stated, how would you be able to diferentiate an okeetee from the okeetee area and a normal that looks like an okeetee? What would be your signs that one is superrior to the other and that one should not be sold as an okeetee. Keep in mind, both these animals are sitting next to each other on the seller's table, both are labled as okeetees and the seller tells you nothing helpful about locality versus look. You just have the look of the animals to go off of. AND, to top it all off, this place that you are buying from is within the accepted "okeetee boundry". Now, how does one identify the locality snake?

 

[Vinman]

rich the whole thing with the diet of the snakes got little crazy I dont care what type of rodent it is impossable that the lab mice that every body uses in the hobby, are gona change the corns genetics. I would expect this from a nebee but never you . The olny thing that I been saying for years is that wild snakes have bigger heads and can hold larger meals. the reason I came up with my verson of the answer it that people baby their corns, the feed them small meals . My corns used to not have this problem because I would feed them large meals push them to the limit and I'm not talking power feeding it helped but I learnd from you the first time I bought corns from you you told that you feed them every 10 to 14 days but you gave them very big meals and the wern't over wight or skiny and the heads wre normal size. I the wild they eat what ever they can fit in their mouths. Nobody to watch over them and not let them eat somthing to big for them. If they hold it down they hold it down if they puke they puke. the strongist live. rich no mean feelings I said I was laughing. dont take in a bad way just think as friendly sarcasem. you know I not being fresh with you . I know you too long for you to know the way I talk. It is all good .No disrespect intended. This should clear it up for everbody else . I answered your question on what I consider a okeetee I will reprint it :

Any corn that is within the boarders of jasper Co. the okeetee has bought and sold land over a lot of land .Also Carl K. hunted the good hope, chelase, H. philps land . Look rich you been there probley a lot more than me. The okeetee owns large tracks of land all over JaspeCo.It is not only ,hardeyvill, tillman,ridgland there is tarbrough, I dont know about the grays. a most of tarbough was Okeetee.
there is a diffrents in scale count in between the north and south population of corn and what the contamiation in the corns in the hobby . You know as well as I that there is a lot of tainted blood in the corns in tobby ,remember that is why I bought from you all my new color morphs. to avoid haveing any emoryi , king, gopher it there lines . I remember you used to bost about not haveing any emoryi in your blood and if there was is has been washed out . now you know as well asI okeetees come from Jasper Coand useing the name classic is the most correct. because the look that you are trying coin is the classic okeetee look do you remember that term. I sure do . the fact that most okeetees in the wild dont look like what would think they would It is hard to find a rich colored thick black boarder corn most of the time you get a rich colored animal with litle black boarders or some dark colored to brownish with thik black boarders. With all the road killthat I seen about 1 out 20 to 30 are that classic okeetee look.
That thing about miami phase you know that you sold me a miami fem. and a bunch of miami phase projects . the only diffrentance is that where the real good miami corns come from is now a bulding complex, All the corns from that area were sold as miami corns or miami phase. all the desendants that were crosed in to other mutations were cald miami phase not miami corns
You but this forum to educate people disspell myths so why propitiate using this bogus term

I will be the first to say Jasper Co corns is a more correct term and you can say the ones that are on the roads running through the okeetee and the oketee land it self and ever where in between okeetee land. Good hope and Chelse plantations, partrigehill cementry, is way north of the okeetee on the east side of I 95 the east part of the okeetee but parrell to the west is tarbough and only 1/12 away, so okeetee is all over jasper Co. Horance philps land is south and little west from okeetee land afew miles about 3 miles south of the okeetee land and carl hunted there too.

 

[Menhir]

Now, how does one identify the locality snake?

I'm not quite shure if you're joking or not.

How do you judge wether RichZ's snakes are pure corn? By the look?
I think it self exploring, that you have to trust the breeder. If I tell you that one animal is a wild caught animal - what you call locality - do you see that by its look?

Your are talking of superior - no one said locality is superior - at least not me!

It's the same argument with pure and unpure corns!
Rich likes that pure-corn thing (like me too) and I could also say, what if you do not see the emoryi after 6 generations?
Same thing goes for locality - some people want that and they should get it.

No matter if you can see this or not or how the animals look like - that is not the porpuse of owning locality animals. (In fact, I'm quite shure people would choose the nicer one between 2 locality animals...)

Sorry, seems that hybrid people live with the same "arguments" with/against pure species keepers, morph-breeders with/against locality and PETA with/against herpers.
Isn't it clear, that we should draw clear lines, have our own point of view but should learn to tolerate the others? (btw. tolerate does not destroy good critics and discussions)

I think we are turning round, and round and round - I said my 2cc to the "locality" usage and will quit here.
Greetings! :santa:

 

[E. g. guttata]

Alrighty. Next issue. Vinny, just because there are "good" and "bad" genes in an animal, does not mean that there is okeetee in the background. When a breeder culls off spring, or when a breeder selectively breeds snakes, they are interfering with nature. The snakes may not have ever met before you picked them up and put them together. Chances are that you are creating an "impure" animal, simply because you are looking for specific genes. I'm not sure where the emoryi and king hybridization came into this conversation, or where you made the jump, but it definately has nothing to do with this locality discussion. Menhir, I was just trying to make a point with the definition of what locality means. The argument I posted against locality is pretty much the same one Vinny is posting against the word "Okeetee". Using Vinman's logic, there is no point in calling a snake a locality animal, unless you have personally gone out and caught it. If we cannot use the word "okeetee" to describe an animal that has a certain look, then the locality buffs certainly cannot use the term "locality" to describe descendants of hunt club corns. This is a 2-way street. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As far as the argument goes that food does not dictate the color of an animal Vin, why do you think that flamingos are pink? I'm telling you right now that it is not because they are born with a gene that automatically creates pink pigments. They are pink because they have had pigment build-up over many many many generations of eating shrimp. Now, we are not seeing the effect of feeding labaratory mice to corns yet, because they have not been kept in captivity that long (I'm compairing to birds, cats, and dogs). You cannot go around saying that there is no effect from the changed diet we give them, just like you cannot go around saying that corns eat pork in the wild. An adult corn, in the wild, MAY eat chicks, but never turkey or pig. This is something that you have introduced to your corns that is not a natural solution. How can you say that this will have no effect at all?

As you are so fond of stating Vinny, this forum is here to educate. I do not think that you are educating. You are trying to push what you believe to be right on us. That is not education, in fact, that is borderline facism. That's the kind of thing that gets people mad and that's the kind of thing that we are trying to get you to stop. You cannot make us believe that okeetees from your designated area of the globe are superrior, that there is no such thing as humans interfearing, that food does not cause changes in a race, that we use one term simply for a selling point, and you definatel can't tell a person "you know as well as I..." because most likely one of you knows more and is more experienced in that area. I believe Rich knows just fine what is what, how to look at things, and how to define what he sees according to his standards and not yours. Your standards are for you, not anyone else. Stop trying to force them onto us.

 

[E. g. guttata]

I'm not quite shure if you're joking or not.

How do you judge wether RichZ's snakes are pure corn? By the look?
I think it self exploring, that you have to trust the breeder. If I tell you that one animal is a wild caught animal - what you call locality - do you see that by its look?

Your are talking of superior - no one said locality is superior - at least not me!

It's the same argument with pure and unpure corns!
Rich likes that pure-corn thing (like me too) and I could also say, what if you do not see the emoryi after 6 generations?
Same thing goes for locality - some people want that and they should get it.

No matter if you can see this or not or how the animals look like - that is not the porpuse of owning locality animals. (In fact, I'm quite shure people would choose the nicer one between 2 locality animals...)

Sorry, seems that hybrid people live with the same "arguments" with/against pure species keepers, morph-breeders with/against locality and PETA with/against herpers.
Isn't it clear, that we should draw clear lines, have our own point of view but should learn to tolerate the others? (btw. tolerate does not destroy good critics and discussions)

I think we are turning round, and round and round - I said my 2cc to the "locality" usage and will quit here.
Greetings! :santa:

Thank you for posting this. My post was aimed more at Vinny than you. I especially like this part "How do you judge wether RichZ's snakes are pure corn? By the look?
I think it self exploring, that you have to trust the breeder. If I tell you that one animal is a wild caught animal - what you call locality - do you see that by its look?" I don't think that all WC corns are locality, but all locality are WC. I still believe that if you have snakes parents who were locality animals, the most honest and true way to represent them is to say they descend from locality animals. Selective breeding for traits is the beginning of removing locality. Those who are big on the locality corns, I'm sure, would probably not have a problem with this different lingo. But as Serp has said, in your circle of "locality buffs" the term locality is perfectly valid, as you all know what you guys are talking about. Therefore, there is no need to change it. Just trying to get people thinking about their stands, especially Vin. He's kinda stuck in a rut and continues to repeat himself without adding any new info or insight.

 

[Rich Z]

I guess you missed these questions, Vinny:

OK, so your definition of a *true* Okeetee Corn is any one that comes from within the borders of Jasper County. Well we're starting off on the wrong foot here right off the bat, because I am certain that the Okeetee Hunt Club never encompased the entire county. So the proper name for all corns coming from that defined area really should be Jasper County Corns, I would think. No matter, though, let's work with your definition, as is.

Any corn snake captured within Jasper County is a *true* Okeetee Corn Snake.

So any corn that is even one inch outside of that border is then a normal corn, right? Meaning *not* an Okeetee Corn.

What about if you SEE that corn while it is within the Jasper County border, but by the time you get to it, it has crossed the border and is no longer in Jasper County. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?

Suppose you SEE that corn snake while it is outside of the Jasper County border and by the time you get to it, it has crossed over into Jasper County. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?

Suppose you see a corn exactly on the border of Jasper County, and it doesn't move at all by the time you get to it and catch it. Half of the snake is within Jasper County and the other half is not. What kind of corn is it, Okeetee or normal?

You are also getting mixed up over the things I have told you over the years:

My corns used to not have this problem because I would feed them large meals push them to the limit and I'm not talking power feeding it helped but I learnd from you the first time I bought corns from you you told that you feed them every 10 to 14 days but you gave them very big meals and the wern't over wight and the heade wre normal size.

That 10 to 14 day feeding schedule was in reference to Eastern Indigo Snakes I used to work with when I lived in Maryland. They have incredibly fast metabolisms. So unless you want to be cleaning their cages EVERY day, you have to feed them like that.

Corn snakes generally have smaller heads these days just because we are looking at younger animals that were grown up too quickly. The head grows much slower then the rest of the body. When you push feed a corn snake, you will get a large bodied animal with a proportionally smaller head. You just don't see that effect on wild caught corns because they are constantly on the search for food and grow much more slowly as much of their diet is going into giving them enough steam to be able to search out that next meal.

But this is getting to be the norm these days because everyone is in such a rush to grow up their animals to breed them. NOW, people consider a normal sized corn for it's age to be undersized because all they have to compare with are animals that other people have been feeding every 4 days to try to balloon them up to breeding size as quickly as possible.

For the record, my adult corns are fed every 7 days. During breeding season, males are often fed much smaller meals or alternately skipped a meal for the few weeks during prime breeding time. Babies are fed every 6 to 7 days, unless a show intrudes, or I just decide to take a couple of days off for myself and to heck with the feeding schedule.

 

[Vinman]

Ihave to eat dinner .Iwas talking about the juvies that I first bought off you over 10 years ago. I see you in a hour
I'm back when I talked about pushing it to the limit I'm not talking about power feeding . I was talking about feeding large meals like in nature. when you feed large food items the head streaches . just like anything skin can be streached permently I seen older snakes that have small heads that people had fed only sm, food items. I sold a pure okeetee to someone that didn't feed it any large food items, 4 years old and never had a jumbo mouse it had a small head the brother and sister had normal heads and they were pushed to the limit, not quanty but in the size of the meal. Yes age has something to do with it and geneitces too there varibles. To answer your question yes if you are on the boarder of jasper co and you find acorn 20 feet into the next county , you know as well as I that is the same geng pool as the other side of the border since you are gona bring this point out I have to tell you this when I hunt I try to hunt as close to the okeetee land as possable . look I get screaming classic corns that are almost pure okeetee. they have a ansistor from yamasee many gens. ago. which is 10 miles away from jasper co. Many people up here sell them as pure local okeetees. when I buy the clutches. I try to buy the before anybody else so I can sell them as pure SC corns not okeetee I sell okeetees for 15 for but uglys 20 to 35 dependeding on look. The corns that I sell from my friend blow mines away and I sell them between 15 to 25 most around 20 ea

 

[E. g. guttata]

To answer your question yes if you are on the boarder of jasper co and you find acorn 20 feet into the next county , you know as well as I that is the same geng pool as the other side of the border since you are gona bring this point out I have to tell you this when I hunt I try to hunt as close to the okeetee land as possable .

So in this case, the gene pool doesn't matter. Just where you pick up the corn. So why would the gene pool matter when you breed other okeetee-looking snakes into an okeetee, if it doesn't matter in the wild? Seems like a double standard to me. "This snake in the wild was not caught on the okeetee land, but close to it. Therefore it is not on okeetee, though from the same gene pool as this okeetee that I caught on the okeetee land." Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Rich Z]

But if you are talking about "locality" then there HAS to be a line somewhere that the animals on one side ARE Okeetees, and the others on the other side ARE NOT. That is what LOCALITY means. The animals came from a defined locality.

It appears that compromises have already been made and the boundaries stretched to exceed the limits of the actual Okeetee Hunt Club to include all of Jasper County. So shouldn't they more accurately be called "Jasper County Corns"? And there STILL has to be a physical, defined line concerning the Jasper County corns, doesn't there? If one found 20 feet outside of Jasper County can still be referred to and sold as a "Jasper County Corn", then what about 50 feet away? Or 100 feet? Or 1 mile? But if you say that a drop dead gorgeous corn found 120 feet from this arbitrary border can still be referred to as a Jasper County Corn because it's gene pool is the same as those on the inside of the boundary, how do you know that ones found 10 miles away aren't from that pool as well?

And if you say a gorgeous animal found 50 feet away from the boundary would suffice to be called a Jasper County (or Okeetee Corn) because of what it LOOKS like, then hasn't that pretty much negated the whole argument about LOCALITY? All you have done is to set down some arbitrary borders that are not only VERY arbitrary, but they are also subject to being bent at a whim based on some arbitrary decision making about each and every animal found *near*, but outside of, this LOCALITY. Now, the question is WHY would those gorgeous animals slightly outside of the LOCALITY even be considered as being labeled as the same animals inside of that LOCALITY border? Is it because of their LOOKS? If so, then exactly WHAT is this discussion all about?

Roll this all back and start from another direction. How many of the animals that you have that you are calling *true* Okeetee Corns were actually collected by yourself on Okeetee Hunt Club grounds or at least within the boundaries of Jasper County? Do you have ANY corn snakes that you are calling *true* Okeetee Corns that you did NOT collect yourself?

 

[Menhir]

I don't think that all WC corns are locality, but all locality are WC. I still believe that if you have snakes parents who were locality animals, the most honest and true way to represent them is to say they descend from locality animals.

OK, I see your point.
Perhaps you should a little abstract from corns where "locality" is often just connected with 2 or 3 areas - Keys, Okeetee Hunt Club, Miami. (to take the most common ones)
This is for "natural" herpers not a big point, an interesting point also, but as big as for us. If I collect them somewhere in the middle of nowwhere, this means also locality to them. (thats why I said, every WC has locality - not known everytime but it has) The usage of the herpers in german is simular to what you said - all animals with known locality are called locality XYZ. If they are WC, that is said extra, that would mean: Zemanis longissimus from Passau, WC. If not said WC, people take it as CB but from pure locality animals.

I can't agree to the last posts of vinman and I think I've understood Richs point for this conversation now.
If you are truly interested in locality animals, you don't try to make the "okeetee" tradename area as big as possible to bring every nice animals collected 100miles around the club into okeetee locality. It's excactly the different thing that makes locality animals interesting. So, catching an animal next to the hunt club in the little village VinnyVinmanCity makes an animal locality VinnyVinmanCity and such a concrete and detailed locality is especially on high demand at "natural" herpers.
Making the area as big as possible and taking out only beauties to just breed locality beauties together is nothing different to the selective breeding of mixed-and-match corns and destroys the thoughts behind locality animals.

Greetings from a sleepy Menhir - had a little gastroscopy this morning and I feel tired... sorry for the orthography.

 

[Vinman]

So in this case, the gene pool doesn't matter. Just where you pick up the corn. So why would the gene pool matter when you breed other okeetee-looking snakes into an okeetee, if it doesn't matter in the wild? Seems like a double standard to me. "This snake in the wild was not caught on the okeetee land, but close to it. Therefore it is not on okeetee, though from the same gene pool as this okeetee that I caught on the okeetee land." Doesn't make sense to me.

EGG it is all about the gene pool and yes a snake 20 feet out side the boardes of jasper can be in or breed with a jasper corn it is all part of the gene pool that s what the stink is about, when you can trace the stock geneictly to 100% jasperCo stock now if you want to nit pick in your terms how many species have intergradetion on over laping ranges. where does the intergradetion stop. So the snake 20 feet to a 1/4 mile from the boarder is still the same gene pool . but you got to draw a line some where
when I hunt I dont the corns from the southern tip of jasper co for okeetee stock under horance phlips land because there is no okeetee for miles. I dont hunt the town of grays in the north of jasper co because there is no okeetee that I know of If I'm wrong let me know, another place to hunt. so when collecting my stock I hunt were carl hunted and every were in between. So when talking stock you want to stay deep with in the boardes of jasper co. I dont hunt north rute 462 . like you got draw a line some where.

 

[Joejr14]

Vinny-

You're still not getting it. You're still setting arbitrary boundaries for this 'pure' okeetee locality nonsense.

Locality animals are absolutely ridiculous anyway. They're locality because of their look, not their location. That is a fact. Nobody would buy a "Tallahassee" corn if it looked like a turd.

It is ridiculous to say "Corns within Jasper County are Okeetees, but those not in the county lines are not". In fact, it's asinine.

As Rich has said numerous times, what about a snake that frequents Jasper County, and non-Jasper county? Is that snake a pure okeetee while in Jasper County, but an 'okeetee phase' after it leaves these ridiculous borders that you decide to instill?

If you want to consider that what a 'pure' okeetee is, then fine. But stop shoving your ridiculous ideals of what a pure okeetee is down others throats. 95% of people do not think of 'okeetee' as a locality, but as a look. That is a fact, and it's clear as day. If I tried to sell my ugly ass normal as a 'Jasper County Pure Okeetee', people would laugh at me because it's not what the look is.

As I said, Okeetees are popular because of their look that originated out of a few excellent specimens that were found within the Hunt Club, period.

This gene pool stuff is nonsense. I'm not going to sit here and get into a genetics gene pool discussion because the whole argument is flawed as soon as you try to put up some arbitrary borders. What the hell happens when a non-jasper county snakes comes into jasper county, and mates with a 'pure' okeetee. Are those babies muts? Are they halfies? Which is it?

 

[E. g. guttata]

EGG it is all about the gene pool and yes a snake 20 feet out side the boardes of jasper can be in or breed with a jasper corn it is all part of the gene pool that s what the stink is about

You don't want a knit-picking debate with me, because if you really want me to nit-pick at this, then by your broad definition of okeetee corns, they range all over the natural range of the corn snakes. Those Miami Phase corns people like so much, you know those ones right? They are located 20 feet from another group of corns, so therefore they share the same gene pool, who share the same gene pool with a group of cornst another 20 feet away and so on and so forth until you get to jasper county. So in this case, what constitutes an okeetee is NOT the crappy line you put up, because the gene pool spreads outward to the end of the corn snake range, barring of course the areas of localised pockets of corns in kentucky and the keys. IMO those corns in KY and the key are the only corns that can TRULY be called locality. As soon as you said the gene pool is what mattered, your border around jasper county fell. there can be no border because the snakes will travel miles to breed and spread their genetics, so the "pure" okeetees will breed with snakes close to them, and create offspring in the same gene pool, who will go a few more miles to breed with snakes close to them, who's hatchlings are now added to that same gene pool, who will move a few more miles to breed with snakes close to them, which adds those hatchlings to the same gene pool... Are you getting the idea yet?? If you are going to argue that the genetics of the snake is what matters, then you incompas all snakes who's ranges touch, including those "filthy" intergrates and hybrids that you fear so much. Corns and grey/yellow/black rats?? Yes, all the time, their ranges overlap and snakes get hungry for sex, and have sex with the first mate that will stand still enough to mount. Snakes and GPR?? yes, in their localized area. But then those snakes move a few miles.... It's a never ending cycle. Rat snakes all belong to the same gene pool for a reason, and this is why. Human interference can change that, but it is not neccessarily the right thing to do. Animals will adapt to their environment around them, and rat snakes have adapted just like humans. Rat snakes will go all around, looking for a mate so they can perpetuate their genes. They don't stay in one area or border. Your mixes of different snakes grows stronger at the places where borders meet, and are strongest at places where ranges overlap, but they still spread far and wide beyond those boundries. So I'm willing to hear your next argument reguarding locality, to see if it holds water better.