questions about morphs

[Menhir]

Locality animals are absolutely ridiculous anyway. They're locality because of their look, not their location. That is a fact. Nobody would buy a "Tallahassee" corn if it looked like a turd.

I will give you a recommendation and I hope you see it as such and not as being rude.
You are into snakes since when?
Perhaps you should try to talk to other people than cornsnake morph enthusiasts. Perhaps some herpers that keep natural snakes. Learn to know their interests and learn to respect them.
What you are saying about locality and "nobody would buy" is simply wrong and offending for every collector and keeper of locality animals. Many people are interested in the locality of snakes although they do not look any different than animals that live 200km away from them. I especially know that for european vipers - they are highly variable and you find nearly every morph in every area. So it is NOT the look that counts, but special looks make animals especially expensive. Also localitys with very, very few animals.

I know, it's quite cool to argument because many people here don't care about locality. I'm also shure, if someone brought up the same phrases about morph-breeders, everyone would jump on him. So I feel free to jump on you because of the many friends I have that spend much time and money on locality animals and they - in difference to you - respect our way of keeping and breeding animals. Perhaps because they are well informed of what we do?!?

@Vinny just as an addition. The way you describe genpool or locality is not the way that natural snake herpers do. You are creating a genpool where none exists, cause these animals are not isolated. If this is the case, you can't simply draw a line by yourself. Locality in the "okeetee" case just makes sense if you say "collected on street XYZ", "collected near the village XYZ" and so on. Giving snakes a locality through an area just makes sense with isolated populations. Otherwise you'd have to be as excact as possible or the whole thing is useless.
Bringing the tradename Okeetee and locality into the same business by creating lines and borders the way you'd just to find good looking snakes isn't a dime better than line breeding them.

 

[Joejr14]

I will give you a recommendation and I hope you see it as such and not as being rude.
You are into snakes since when?
Perhaps you should try to talk to other people than cornsnake morph enthusiasts. Perhaps some herpers that keep natural snakes. Learn to know their interests and learn to respect them.
What you are saying about locality and "nobody would buy" is simply wrong and offending for every collector and keeper of locality animals. Many people are interested in the locality of snakes although they do not look any different than animals that live 200km away from them. I especially know that for european vipers - they are highly variable and you find nearly every morph in every area. So it is NOT the look that counts, but special looks make animals especially expensive. Also localitys with very, very few animals.

I know, it's quite cool to argument because many people here don't care about locality. I'm also shure, if someone brought up the same phrases about morph-breeders, everyone would jump on him. So I feel free to jump on you because of the many friends I have that spend much time and money on locality animals and they - in difference to you - respect our way of keeping and breeding animals. Perhaps because they are well informed of what we do?!?

Well, I'm talking about corns here, not other morphs. I should have made that clearer in my post.

Why do people buy okeetee corns? Because they're from Jasper County/Okeetee Hunt Club, or because they're associated with a certain look of corns that comes from that area?

The very vast majority of people would be very disappointed if you sent them an adult 'okeetee' that looked like an ugly, drab normal. Most people would be expecting what an okeetee corn has come to look like.

There is zero reason to target and collect a 'locality' animal if it doesnt have a certain look.

Your example about european vipers proves my point exactly. You pay extra for a locality animal because it looks different, not because it's from some country. While it might be from some country, it's sought after because of the look---not the origin.

 

[Menhir]

Well, I'm talking about corns here, not other (morphs) species. I should have made that clearer in my post.

OK, accepted. :wavey:
Better would have been you said "the locality and Okeetee thing". I personal have one friend owning Corns with locality from the Hunt Club and I tell you what, he took the ones with the thinnest borders (it's a CB directly from WC) cause he doesn't like the look but wanted Corns with locality. They were the only ones with shure locality he could find in europe.

Your example about european vipers proves my point exactly. You pay extra for a locality animal because it looks different, not because it's from some country. While it might be from some country, it's sought after because of the look---not the origin.

No, I wanted to tell you the excact difference - people want the locality ALTHOUGH you may find nearly every look of a e.g. Viper berus berus in every location (at least over the spread of berus berus). It's just the animals with a special look or that are very rare to find in a special area which are more expensive. The other interest that stands behind that is imho, that we do not have that much snakes as you in the us have, so people are more interested to own animals of a special "home" region and so on.

So - back to the Okeetee and the locality confusion part :grin01:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Hmm... you keep saying that a line has to be drawn somewhere. First it's the Okeetee Hunt Club itself. Then it's only certain areas within Jasper county. By that time, you've lost a large number of the people who are also in your circle of locality collectors. But then it keeps going... now it's even outside of Jasper county. Every time you've said there was a line, you've continued to cross that line. What's next? Anything in South Carolina? Anything east of the Mississippi? The only thing that could be said is a consistent definition of a "true Okeetee" is "if vinman says it is, then it is, otherwise it isn't."

This doesn't seem like a definition to me because, again, definitions come from usage, and not from one person making an absolute declaration. There's no consistency to the usage, and there's nobody else using the same criteria you are. Without either of those, there is NO definition of a "true okeetee." And that in itself is fraudulent in that it attempts to devalue other okeetees (and thus add value to your own) by directly implying those others are "false."

If you want to use a term that describes the spirit of what Kauffeld was doing, then how about just calling them Kauffeld corns. Then everyone can understand what you are talking about--that it's not about exact location or exact genes, but a love for field herping that one man introduced to a lot of others--and maybe they will be interested in reading what he had to say about them so they can appreciate what value they hold to those who enjoy the same things.

 

[Rich Z]

OK, accepted. :wavey:
Better would have been you said "the locality and Okeetee thing". I personal have one friend owning Corns with locality from the Hunt Club and I tell you what, he took the ones with the thinnest borders (it's a CB directly from WC) cause he doesn't like the look but wanted Corns with locality. They were the only ones with shure locality he could find in europe.

This brings up another issue, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, mind you. What exactly makes an Okeetee corn guaranteed, definitely, 100 percent "Okeetee" based on locality, even and arbitrary one? How many people actually captured the animal themselves, directly within that locality? And even then, how would you know whether it is an actual "resident" of that area, or a common normal corn just passing through?

More likely then not, most people got their Okeetee corns from someone, maybe several times removed from the original source, who said they caught the animal, or the ancestors, in the Okeetee "locality". But where is the rock solid proof? It is all just hearsay, and the point of the matter is that there is NO proof at all except for what someone says and how much the listener decides to believe what he or she is hearing. What criteria is used for "believing" that the Okeetee Corn you have is really and truly what someone said it is? It all hinges around YOUR arbitrary choice of who to believe and who not to believe. Because in reality you have not one single solitary foolproof way to prove anything at all about where that animal really came from. None. It is all based on faith and belief based on some arbitrary criteria about who is credible and who is not. Not knocking anyone who does have and sell Okeetees, mind you, but let's face it, except for what the animal actually LOOKS like, there is not one single solitary credible way to prove either way whether any given example of an Okeetee Corn Snake is really *truly* one or not.

Even if the original person who you got your Okeetee Corns lives right there dead in the center of the locality and his uncle is the gatekeeper at the Okeetee Hunt Club is no proof whatsoever that this person didn't travel 10 miles down the road and caught that snake there instead. Everything is based on your willingness to BELIEVE in the credibility of what someone else is telling you. That is just fine if that is what you want, but for someone to get their feathers all ruffled over a discussion about this "locality stuff" and claim any other opinion is worthy only of contemp needs to take a long drink of reality.

 

[Menhir]

This brings up another issue, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, mind you. What exactly makes an Okeetee corn guaranteed, definitely, 100 percent "Okeetee" based on locality, even and arbitrary one?

The answer again is trust it or do not.
In that special case, the WC parents are kept by a known european herper, book author and afaik also professor that just keeps "natural" snakes. If you search for natural snakes in europe, such kind of people are the rights ones. ...who known for shure? I do not :crazy02:

But in general, that thing goes for everything, from pureness (do you know everyone ever owned each animal you ever bought and bred into your line that can guarantee you (cause he also does know everyone) that the animal is 100% NOT a Hybrid?) to locality, to line-breeding (imagine a silver coloured ghost, no yellow, washed out saddles - can you (I mean you in general, not you Rich) say for shure Silverqueen or not?) and I could go that list on and on and on and on.

I see that special problem we have here with the Okeetee name, so your "interrupt" was quite ok and true. I'm shure that it's nearly impossible to get that locality vs. line-breeding aspect into the Okeetee thing again, that train left long time ago (is this understandable in english?).
We should simply see the Okeetee as a line bred trait and those people that just collect on the Hunt Club and breed them together may feel free to call their animal locality Okeetee or WC Okeetee and draw their line where they want - we can't draw one so they should agree to one or not...

 

[Serpwidgets]

that train left long time ago (is this understandable in english?).

Yessir.

The train has left the station.

That ship has already sailed.

Pandora's box has been opened.

"Too late!"

Or, as Bush would probably say, "We have a saying in Tennessee, err Texas. I mean they have this saying in Texas and it's probably the same in Tennessee: Pandora's train... (pause with deer in headlights look) ...has already sailed." :sidestep:

 

[E. g. guttata]

Or, as Bush would probably say, "We have a saying in Tennessee, err Texas. I mean they have this saying in Texas and it's probably the same in Tennessee: Pandora's train... (pause with deer in headlights look) ...has already sailed." :sidestep:

LMAO!!! I love that one. What was that site we were veiwing last night? Had something to the effect of: "I think my new thing will be to try to be a real happy guy. I'll just walk around being real happy until some jerk says something stupid to me." Funny stuff. LOL

 

[Menhir]

:-offtopic

~hehehehe~

If I someday get that guy that opened pandoras box... :flames: I would have married pandora, but I have to be strict on that "virgin till marriage" thing.

At least since we have that german pope uke01:

...I will not look into the urban dictionary, but you came up with pandoras box and I bet there are some equal slang meanings in our languages, just like the chat where we talked about schlange and schlong :santa:

 

[Rich Z]

I have seen some people bring up Carl Kauffeld's name in reference to identifying and idolizing the "Okeetee Corn Snake". Well let me copy the passage out of his Snakes and Snake Hunting book (page 227) where he discusses the corn snakes found in the Okeetee Hunt Club.

"On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes are among the most numerous snakes and they grow to greater size and greater beauty than any I have known from elsewhere. The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others - the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, and there is no sexual correlation so far as I can tell. In my estimation the Corn Snake is not only the most beautiful nonpoisonous snake in the United States, but in the world as a whole."

Doesn't really appear that this passage can be taken as any sort of descriptive definition of what actually makes an "Okeetee Corn Snake", now does it?

 

[Vinman]

Quote:
"On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes are among the most numerous snakes and they grow to greater size and greater beauty than any I have known from elsewhere. The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others - the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, and there is no sexual correlation so far as I can tell. In my estimation the Corn Snake is not only the most beautiful nonpoisonous snake in the United States, but in the world as a whole."



Doesn't really appear that this passage can be taken as any sort of descriptive definition of what actually makes an "Okeetee Corn Snake", now does it?
__________________
Rich Z
SerpenCo

thank you rich you just said it all No where did Carl K. say that okeetee corns have big black borders on a bright orange back round What you difine as okeetee. So since I dont breed my okeetees to all look the same then I am right a okeetee is a localty not a color phase. to tell you the truth comming from N .Y. C. and I used to belong to the NY herp socity yes the same herp club as carl K . the fact is that this whole okeetee thing started in NY not any where else even before carl wrote the 2 books he used to brag about to the members at the NYS meetings He used to give talks on all his herping exp.then I would Know more people that knew carl then most . The fact is that this hole big black boarder thing is not what what a okeetee is all about. Like I said before a lot of people liked the okeetee corns for the rich color with no or little black. the fact is what you call okeetee is not what the comon okeetee looks like, so when you use the name okeetee it is invalid.
So if carl coined the name okeetee corns then it would be where he hunted not what you all consider a okeetee should look like he never set a standard for what a okeetee is supposed to look like. like he said they are variable.

 

[E. g. guttata]

Quote:
"On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes are among the most numerous snakes and they grow to greater size and greater beauty than any I have known from elsewhere. The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others - the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, and there is no sexual correlation so far as I can tell. In my estimation the Corn Snake is not only the most beautiful nonpoisonous snake in the United States, but in the world as a whole."



Doesn't really appear that this passage can be taken as any sort of descriptive definition of what actually makes an "Okeetee Corn Snake", now does it?
__________________
Rich Z
SerpenCo

thank you rich you just said it all No where did Carl K. say that okeetee corns have big black borders on a bright orange back round What you difine as okeetee.

Where in there does he define okeetees as a locality? I'm not seeing it. He just says they are more abundant and range in colors from something similar to a miami phase corn, and what most people picture as being an okeetee. He even says that what you are calling okeetee phase are also the prettiest. In fact, he DOES describe the okeetees as having the orange backgrounds and big black borders, but he als describes the okeetees that look like miami phase. This argument does not hold water either. What we are calling okeetees ARE described by Carl, but he also describes them as "on the okeetee" meaning your definition of "jasper county" is falsified. At least if you're going to hold this man's word as a good definition of locality. Keep in mind that it is also ambiguous enough to enforce the morph perspective. Now, please try again....

 

[Rich Z]

If we are going to hold that original passage to being the defining criteria for "locality Okeetee Corn Snakes", then it looks like it has to be "at most ten square miles" (roughly 3.17 miles to a side). Certainly NOT an entire county at all, and extremely limited in size. So if hairs are to be split, then split them correctly.

 

[cka]

In fact, he DOES describe the okeetees as having the orange backgrounds and big black borders,...

Umm, no he doesn't..."the prettiest - have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches"...there is no mention whatsoever of "big black borders"...He also describes the corns as those he found "on the Okeetee", meaning the hunt club property...Did HE ever call those snakes "Okeetee's", or did the term come into use after the book was published?

 

[Vinman]

carl clearly states that , quote; "On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes thease 5 opening words tell you location and everybody knows were the okeetee is. so where did he mention the boarders that what you all think defines a okeetee,
right the best and it is the nicer colored animals I been saying all along the boardes is what everybody thinks about color is last he never gave a defineing look he said they are variable. Sorry Rich he was just talking about any 10 sq. miles he never implied that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles You been there how come you dont tell everybody that the okeetee is scatered all over the county in large trackes of land. I think the okeetee comeprieses 40 to 55% of the county I got the map in front of me of jasper co . and my friend boggie who knew and hunted with carl as a kid outlind the okeetee property. He also told me that when he was a boy that the okeetee had more land . he told me that most of the county was once oned by the okeetee, there fore okeetee and jasper Co run hand and hand . Rich you know the real deal so come clean a okeetee is from jasper Co ,they are the corns that carl K. talked about when he went hunting is jasper co. as I said and you have read, he hunted Good hope & chelse plantations and horance philps land too

 

[Vinman]

cka please reread post 71 all the info is there thank you

 

[Rich Z]

So was Kauffeld just wrong about the size of the Okeetee Hunt Club then? The quote is right there in his book about the 10 square miles. He mentioned it specifically in reference to those corn snakes. Was he speaking about just a small area of the Okeetee Hunt Club then where these specific animals he found were located, and NOT the entire Hunt Club grounds? Surely he used that wording for a reason, don't you think? And back in those days, human beings re-read their own manuscripts for clerical errors and then other people would proof-read them again as well. So I don't find it difficult to believe at all that Carl Kauffeld REALLY meant 10 square miles as a locality when he put it into print. Perhaps everyone else has extrapolated this to a much larger area. Perhaps there really is a locality only 10 acres square that exhibits the population that Carl Kauffeld wrote about. If this "10 acre reference" is not true, then what else that he has written then, may not be true or accurate, or even a mistake? Perhaps he was talking about somewhere else entirely, then for that interesting population of corn snakes? You either have faith in what he wrote or you don't, I guess.

 

[cka]

cka please reread post 71 all the info is there thank you

hehe my comment was meant to correct EGG's misunderstanding of Kaulfields description (the black border issue)...I have no other comments/opinions to add to the "Great Okeetee Debate" that havent already been totally beat to death...

 

[E. g. guttata]

carl clearly states that , quote; "On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes thease 5 opening words tell you location and everybody knows were the okeetee is. so where did he mention the boarders that what you all think defines a okeetee,
right the best and it is the nicer colored animals I been saying all along the boardes is what everybody thinks about color is last he never gave a defineing look he said they are variable. Sorry Rich he was just talking about any 10 sq. miles he never implied that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles You been there how you dont tell everybody that the okeetee is scatered all over the county in large trackes of land. I think the okeetee comeprieses 40 to 55% of the county I got the map in front of me. of jasper co . and my friend boggie who knew and hunted with carl as a kid outlind the okeetee property. He also told me that when he was a boy that the okeetee had more land . he told me that most of the county was once oned by the okeetee, there fore okeetee and jasper Co run hand and hand . Rich you know the real deal so come clean a okeetee is from jasper Co ,they are the corns that carl K. talked about when he went hunting is jasper co. as I said and you have read, he hunted Good hope & chelse plantations and horance philps land too

He never states "this is the location for okeetee corn snakes". He never uses the phrase "these snakes shall be named after the okeetee land" The fact that he says that there are corn snakes are "on the okeetee" means nothing. That's like saying "there are corns in miami". How does that make them miami locality corns? It doesn't. It just means there are corns in that area, not that that area is somewhat special. So basically what you are stating here is if I go to tallahassee, and I state in a publised book that "in tallahassee, there is a group of corn snakes..." then that is now an area in which there is a special locality of corn snakes.

Sorry Rich he was just talking about any 10 sq. miles he never implied that the okeetee is 10 sq. miles

How does that encompas the whole of the okeetee range, or even the county there? It's almost like saying "In this 25 square miles of jacksonville there are these gorgeous corns....." that obviously encompases the entire city of jacksonville and not the 25 sq. miles that I would be talking about.

How about this from Kathy's CSM?? Page 73

'OKEETEE' CORNS
This is the quintessentially ultimate yet normal corn snake, encompassing all the traits people love in the species as a whole. Carl Kauffeld popularized this big, husky 'race' in two books about snake hunting-Snakes and Snake Hunting, 1957 and Snakes-the Keeper and the Kept, 1969. The name was bestowed in honor of the property on which they were first collected - the Okeetee Hunt Club.

Now, it is clearly stated that the "okeetee" corn is defined by the look of the corn, and given the name because this corn with this look was found on the okeetee hunt club. She does go on to say:

Not only has 'Okeetee' withstood the test of time, it has become the general designation for classically beautiful corns from the southern tip of South Carolina.

I will not deny that it is written in the CSM that the name has been used to describe locality, but it first states that the name is also used to describe the look. NOW, how can you go on stating that term okeetee is only reserved for the use of locality? According to your standards, it has been written in a book that the term okeetee means the look as well as the locality, so therefore, the term okeetee is correct in both cases, and is not used as a scam.

So Vinny, what is your next move? I am very interested to see where this goes. And BTW, "check".

 

[Serpwidgets]

I have a dumb question... how did this "definition" -- the one vinman is trying to claim is the only definition -- come to be valid?

What? It's commonly used? Well, ask people who use the word, and those who buy and sell snakes labeled as Okeetees, and it's very clear that "bright ground color and thick borders" is what the word means. This is why people buy and sell "Reverse Okeetee" corns all the time, it's about color, not locality.

Or wait, what's that you say? It's because it was written in a book? Well, then, it just so happens that here is a definition of Okeetee that was written in a book:

The stereotypical Okeetee corn has extremely bright orange and red colors separated by thick, bold black borders.

...

Another meaning has branched off from this, and is perhaps more common than the original. It refers to corns having the stereotypical “look” of Okeetee locality corns. Many of these have been produced. They will have some, little, or no connection to any corns from the actual locality.

And there ya go, a non-locality, LOOKS ONLY definition of Okeetee is in publication. Although I don't think "being published" means squat, I believe it's all about usage, but if we want to put credence in "it's published" then here ya go: it's published.