Science marches on

[snakewispera snr]

The thing is, until you all die (or judgement day comes), none of you know for sure...
The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp

 

[sfaoldguy]

joking-
–verb 7.to say something in fun or teasing rather than in earnest; be facetious: He didn't really mean it, he was only joking.

I understand that it was a joke and believe you probably said it without any ill intent, but it is offensive. Some people like to tell black jokes. Does it being a joke make it ok?

 

[tom e]

The thing is, until you all die (or judgement day comes), none of you know for sure...
The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp

Long shot odds though, when you think of all the religions that Russell is agnostic toward. (Not meaning to pick on Russell, I mean any Christian really) Seems like a crapshoot when you put it that way, including all the religions no longer practiced. What if only Baal devotees don't burn?

 

[jazzgeek]

The thing is, until you all die (or judgement day comes), none of you know for sure...
The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp

Then again, if Russell is right, there are a myriad of other possibilities other than the binary "wings or fire", that we've been taught.

Bottom line: None of us won't know until it happens.


Dale

 

[jazzgeek]

I understand that it was a joke and believe you probably said it without any ill intent, but it is offensive. Some people like to tell black jokes. Does it being a joke make it ok?

Depends on the context and intent of the teller. I know more than a few black friends who tell black jokes. Same goes with Poles, Jews, Germans, Norwegians, Episcopalians, and so on.


Dale

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I understand that it was a joke and believe you probably said it without any ill intent, but it is offensive. Some people like to tell black jokes. Does it being a joke make it ok?

Why is it that the only people you are accusing of being "pricks" and attacking others are the ones who are having a bit of fun and good hearted debate and seem to lean more towards the side of science?
I mean seriously, even Wade who can at times be offensive to some (I love ya Wade), was able to tell Russell directly that he could appreciate his point of view and they were able to discuss as adults....
There was actually no "name calling" or anything really harsh in this thread until YOU called some people "pricks".
Are you offended because it was discussion/joking about religion? Are you a religious person? Why is Russell able to handle this like an adult and even come out and say he doesn't need anyone to defend him, but you are still calling people out? If you can't discuss the topic at hand like a reasonable adult, then maybe you should just ignore the thread altogether.

Anyone who believes in evolution has something seriously wrong with them.

Why was this post not one of the ones you attacked? This one clearly was attacking those who believe in science over religion. I don't think there is anything wrong with me at all and I believe in evolution. Yet you don't see me throwing a hissy fit or attacking the poster because of what he believes. He is entitled to his opinion, regardless of how I think or feel about it.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Long shot odds though, when you think of all the religions that Russell is agnostic toward. (Not meaning to pick on Russell, I mean any Christian really) Seems like a crapshoot when you put it that way, including all the religions no longer practiced. What if only Baal devotees don't burn?

I'm not getting involved.... LOL
Non christians/non-religious will always have a what if argument....
I like reading about religions and seeing things from their point of view....
I'm just saying you all want to hope that Russell is wrong, eternity is an awful long time.... LOL

 

[sfaoldguy]

Long shot odds though, when you think of all the religions that Russell is agnostic toward. (Not meaning to pick on Russell, I mean any Christian really) Seems like a crapshoot when you put it that way, including all the religions no longer practiced, what if only Baal devotees don't burn?

Agreed. Faith isn't doing something just in case.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Then again, if Russell is right, there are a myriad of other possibilities other than the binary "wings or fire", that we've been taught.

Bottom line: None of us won't know until it happens.


Dale

Wrong..... If Russell is right there is only the binary 'wings or fire'... Unless I missed something when I've read Christian beliefs... LOL
Off topic.... There is no pit of fire....
What is actually said is... Knowing that you have been separated from your God is the ultimate torment, like burning for eternity in a pit of fire....

 

[Russell]

Out of all the quotes you made, the first one by me was the only one that sounded prickleish to me. The others were just disagreeing. My comment was rude. I should have made statement rather than being “snarky”. But then I’m a snarky guy.

What I should have said was----Russell, don’t you think you are ignoring a lot if information and facts by saying that if it isn’t in the bible you won’t hear it?

Is that better?

Wade, no, I feel I look at the same information and see things in a different light.

And there are plenty of different things NOT found in the bible that I can do just fine with doing without feeling guilty! Cars aren't found in the bible, but I don't feel I'm sinning by driving one...!!!! And that's just ONE example! Nor does it list the information required to know how to flush a toilet...

The bible isn't intended as some all encompassing guide book to the world and life! Anyhow who tries to make it such is going to live a very sad life indeed!

 

[wade]

I think you need to address what Katie said above. Why are you the only one calling names and only calling out the evolution side of the argument? You aren’t being judgmental are you?

 

[jazzgeek]

Wrong..... If Russell is right there is only the binary 'wings or fire'... Unless I missed something when I've read Christian beliefs... LOL
Off topic.... There is no pit of fire....
What is actually said is... Knowing that you have been separated from your God is the ultimate torment, like burning for eternity in a pit of fire....

Wrong. Russell could be completely correct over the concept of an afterlife, and yet, completely incorrect over what that afterlife consists of.

Nobody knows for sure, if there is, AND...if there is, what lies beyond.


Dale

 

[kathylove]

"...The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp..."

That is very true! And I thought about that a lot, especially when I was younger and many people were trying to convince me of their point of view. When I was a teen, I studied the Bible with some of them for a while, and even prayed for some sort of revelation that would point me to their faith. It never came.

It is not something you can "force" yourself to believe, and just accept a lot on faith. Either you do believe, or you don't. After a lot of thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that I can't prove it one way or the other, for now. And I think if there is a God in the traditional sense, then He would not have given us the logic and intellect to question religions / books that were written by men, although supposedly inspired by God, unless He wanted us to use it in a questioning way. I have learned too much about human nature over the years to take it on faith that those various men were really inspired by God, and not by their own human needs or frailties.

So that makes me an agnostic, although an open minded one. I am ready to believe whatever makes the most logical sense to me.

 

[wade]

Wade, no, I feel I look at the same information and see things in a different light.

And there are plenty of different things NOT found in the bible that I can do just fine with doing without feeling guilty! Cars aren't found in the bible, but I don't feel I'm sinning by driving one...!!!! And that's just ONE example! Nor does it list the information required to know how to flush a toilet...

The bible isn't intended as some all encompassing guide book to the world and life! Anyhow who tries to make it such is going to live a very sad life indeed!

I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying there. The comment I made was in reference to a comment you made several pages ago. My interpretation was that you weren’t going to believe in evolution because it wasn’t in the bible. I am paraphrasing big time because I’m too lazy to scroll that far back. But you said something like you found all the information you need in the bible and wouldn’t entertain any other thoughts.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Wrong. Russell could be completely correct over the concept of an afterlife, and yet, completely incorrect over what that afterlife consists of.

Nobody knows for sure, if there is, AND...if there is, what lies beyond.


Dale

Sorry I should of made myself clearer.... I was referring to the binary wings or fire statement... There is only the two places mentioned in the Bible... Though wings and fire is not accurate.... Fire I've already explained and wings you won't get.... They are for angels and no one will become an angel...

"...The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp..."

That is very true! And I thought about that a lot, especially when I was younger and many people were trying to convince me of their point of view. When I was a teen, I studied the Bible with some of them for a while, and even prayed for some sort of revelation that would point me to their faith. It never came.

It is not something you can "force" yourself to believe, and just accept a lot on faith. Either you do believe, or you don't. After a lot of thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that I can't prove it one way or the other, for now. And I think if there is a God in the traditional sense, then He would not have given us the logic and intellect to question religions / books that were written by men, although supposedly inspired by God, unless He wanted us to use it in a questioning way. I have learned too much about human nature over the years to take it on faith that those various men were really inspired by God, and not by their own human needs or frailties.

So that makes me an agnostic, although an open minded one. I am ready to believe whatever makes the most logical sense to me.

Faith is what all religions are based on.... If proof was given you wouldn't need faith... LOL
God gave everyone the freedom of choice, everyone can question and look for a more logical explanation... Something that doesn't require faith....
Didn't someone once say that the cleverest thing that Satan done was helped man to stop believing in God....
Anyway, I wasn't going to get involved in this debate as it will never be resolved, and when you do find out the truth you can't come back and say 'See I told you I was right'... LOL
You all have fun trying to prove your points and I'll carry on having fun reading them...

 

[tom e]

And I think if there is a God in the traditional sense, then He would not have given us the logic and intellect to question religions / books that were written by men, although supposedly inspired by God, unless He wanted us to use it in a questioning way.

Yep, I've thought about that a lot too. I don't worry one bit about being wrong, as I feel I've got a 'good case' even if I am wrong. What nerve to feel that I can reason with God right? Not in my estimation. If we were created by someone, then that being made a point that he values a questioning mind. If we are the product of an intelligent designer, than he sent me that message loud and clear via the nature of his/her design.

 

[jazzgeek]

Sorry I should of made myself clearer.... I was referring to the binary wings or fire statement... There is only the two places mentioned in the Bible... Though wings and fire is not accurate.... Fire I've already explained and wings you won't get.... They are for angels and no one will become an angel...

No worries...they were just literary devices - not literals - chosen to represent heaven and hell.


Dale

 

[Russell]

Wrong..... If Russell is right there is only the binary 'wings or fire'... Unless I missed something when I've read Christian beliefs... LOL
Off topic.... There is no pit of fire....
What is actually said is... Knowing that you have been separated from your God is the ultimate torment, like burning for eternity in a pit of fire....

I do feel the need to correct you on that point, because that is not what I believe at all! I trust solely in what the bible says. And it gets said a lot, and over, and over, and over again. May I please quote, from the Holy Bible...

But whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mathew 10:28

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mathew 13:40-42

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnasthing of teeth. Mathew 13:49,50

Ye serpents, ye generations of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Mathew 23:33

(Note here! this verse above is where Jesus was talking to the pharisees, the most religious people of the day...seems people forget that Jesus didn't get along with religious people...just thought I should point that out! he wasn't literally saying snakes were in danger of hell, he was referring to the group of people in this way cause even back then they already hated snakes! This comment is for those who ask if I believe literally. Well, you can't if you keep things in context and understand the meaning of the passage, NOT just ONE verse! Keep things in context! )

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46

And that's just a small amount of verses dealing with hell. So yes, I do take it literally, for it is literally saying in just these few verses pulled out of the book of Matthew that Hell is a very real place. But it wasn't hell that caused me to trust in Jesus. I just don't feel that's the right attitude at all. LONG story, but I felt I had to point out that no, what I personally believe is what is clearly stated in the bible.

If main stream christianity now teaches something not accurate to the bible. Well that's their problem. I'm a bible believing fundamentalist! Different color of christian if you will!

 

[Nova_C]

Here are some of the quotes that illustrate my point.

[QUOTE name=Nova_C]Why is that specific part of the bible immutable? Christians in modern society ignore uncomfortable sections of the bible at will, why is the Genesis story so much more sacrosanct than others?

[/QUOTE]

This threads been moving pretty fast, but I'd like to address this.

What about my question is prickish? Do Christians follow the literal bible in it's entirety? If not, then what's wrong with my inquiry? Who decides what in the bible is to be believed literally and the rest either seen as metaphor/parable or ignored entirely?

I was raised Christian, didn't call myself an atheist until a couple years back, and no one has ever answered that question.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

"...The other thing is if Russell's wrong, he'll turn to dust, like the rest of you, but if he's right there'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the other camp..."

That is very true! And I thought about that a lot, especially when I was younger and many people were trying to convince me of their point of view. When I was a teen, I studied the Bible with some of them for a while, and even prayed for some sort of revelation that would point me to their faith. It never came.

It is not something you can "force" yourself to believe, and just accept a lot on faith. Either you do believe, or you don't. After a lot of thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that I can't prove it one way or the other, for now. And I think if there is a God in the traditional sense, then He would not have given us the logic and intellect to question religions / books that were written by men, although supposedly inspired by God, unless He wanted us to use it in a questioning way. I have learned too much about human nature over the years to take it on faith that those various men were really inspired by God, and not by their own human needs or frailties.

So that makes me an agnostic, although an open minded one. I am ready to believe whatever makes the most logical sense to me.

Very well stated Kathy! And I completely agree with your last sentence.
I was raised in the Catholic church, most of my family are still practicing Catholics (a few are Lutheran and Methodist). I personally stopped attending church many many years ago and now also consider myself to be agnostic.
I have read the bible - cover to cover. I have studied it in depth both in school and out of school. Yet, I still believe in evolution over creationism. The bible is a great book - there are a lot of lessons in there to learn and take to heart.
I don't know if it is because I grew up in an era of "science", but I personally believe that a lot of stories in the bible are just that - stories. Told to elicit a response from followers. In a good way mind you....
But as with any story, fable or myth, there is usually at least a grain of truth in it to begin. And now science is showing us how some of those stories from the bible could possibly have happened in reality. Including (as I stated in a previous reply) the great flood of Noah and the plagues of Egypt. Now if you choose to believe that God had a hand in how nature caused these events to happen - that is your right to believe - that is faith. But I think having science show how these events really could have happened is opening up the bible to more and more people as at least some part historical fact and not just tall tales. It is giving rise to more individuals looking into more and more of the passages, parables, books of the bible etc...to see if more can be proven as probable or possible, which in turn lends credence to everyone who believes in it.

I am fascinated by religion - not just christianity, but all religions. Sometimes I wish I could just have that all consuming ability to believe that God is there taking care of everything, but I just don't. But that is just me. I respect those that do however and commend them for sticking with their beliefs in the face of all the uncertainty in todays world.