Snake turning green "literally"

[kadaysa]

This may sounds like a crazy question but I have searched and searched all over the internet and found nothing so I thought maybe I would spend my lunch hour asking this question here vs my no result internet search

Please be patient with me

My son purchased a California King about a month ago. It is black and white banded. We brought it home and he set it up in a 10g. On his first feeding day shortly after he was put in his feeding tub we noticed he sort of looked a little like a pale green yellow color, not real apparent but definitely not the bright white we brought him home as. I said to my son weird, maybe the color shift has something to do with the lights the store had. Anyway the snake ate fine and back in the 10g he went. I checked on him I believe two days later and the snake was back to a beautiful black and white. To be honest I have other stuff taxing my mind lately so I let this one go.
Until this...
Now a week ago I purchased a Thayeri X Pueblan X Cal King X Corn (picture attached) he was blue when I received him but he was definately black and like in between a creamy white and white. I checked on him daily to watch for his shed about four days after receiving him he was looking a little "green" literally. I waited for his shed to complete which it did this past Sunday. The shed looks great, you can see the black bands on the shed but nothing looks unsual. The snake had his first feed with me yesterday and still looks like a green tint vs the creamy white. Any thoughts? He just ate yesterday but if needed I will be happy to snap a photo of him in the next day or so. Let me say the snake looks okay, doesn't appear to be ill or anything at all. I was wondering if these kinds of snakes are capable of color shifting when stressed or something. Could it be a light issue? If I haven't seen it with my own eyes I probably would not have believed it I guess. The snake is on aspen as with all of my other snakes and nothing different between this guys tub vs everyone elses, and they aren't turning green :awcrap:. I am wondering if I should be super concerned?

BTW in thinking green I named him Patrick.

Anyway thanks for getting this far in my post

Also please note this is NOT the green photo but the before photo

 

[Kokopelli]

It's not impossible... I have seen crazy colors on colubrids that have Thayeri blood in'em.
Post a pic.

 

[wade]

Well the first thing I noticed was the snake in the picture is not a Cal King. But then I noticed that you know that.

In the wild King snakes eat primarily other reptiles, snakes and lizards. These prey reptiles get their nutrition from their prey being rodents and insects respectively. This is kind of confusing so bear with me. When the prey reptile eats its prey insect (in the case of a lizard) the prey reptile is then getting the digested and partly digested meal the insect ate earlier that day. For the most part that would be plant material. In the case of rodents their main food in the wild is plant material as well. They digest the plant and from the nutrients contained in the plant the build their muscles and bones, etc. Now the prey (insect or mouse) is consumed by a reptile and that reptile digests the muscle and bones of its prey and from that makes it’s own muscle and bones only these would be reptile muscle and bone. It is not until this second round of digestion and muscle development that the Kingsnake then eats that reptile and digests it.

I captivity we skip the middleman so to speak and feed the Kingsnake rodents. The Kingsnake then digests the rodent to get its nutrition without going through the middle step of creating reptile flesh first. I can’t think of any way that this would contribute to your snake turning green. I think it is probably your imagination.

 

[Kokopelli]

Well the first thing I noticed was the snake in the picture is not a Cal King. But then I noticed that you know that.

In the wild King snakes eat primarily other reptiles, snakes and lizards. These prey reptiles get their nutrition from their prey being rodents and insects respectively. This is kind of confusing so bear with me. When the prey reptile eats its prey insect (in the case of a lizard) the prey reptile is then getting the digested and partly digested meal the insect ate earlier that day. For the most part that would be plant material. In the case of rodents their main food in the wild is plant material as well. They digest the plant and from the nutrients contained in the plant the build their muscles and bones, etc. Now the prey (insect or mouse) is consumed by a reptile and that reptile digests the muscle and bones of its prey and from that makes it’s own muscle and bones only these would be reptile muscle and bone. It is not until this second round of digestion and muscle development that the Kingsnake then eats that reptile and digests it.

I captivity we skip the middleman so to speak and feed the Kingsnake rodents. The Kingsnake then digests the rodent to get its nutrition without going through the middle step of creating reptile flesh first. I can’t think of any way that this would contribute to your snake turning green. I think it is probably your imagination.

On what basis can you make such a statement when you're talking hybrids- especially a hybrid which is a product of several generation of cross-breeding?
I have personally held an F2 PyromelanaXAlterna that was pastelish-green.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Hmm... I notice from time to time my Amel corn's tummy is darker after a meal. So It could just be the food moving through the body that you are seeing to cause the color issue. You see the darker prey though the pale areas of skin kinda thing. Who knows. It's worth tanking a few progression photos of if you get the chance.

On what basis can you make such a statement when you're talking hybrids- especially a hybrid which is a product of several generation of cross-breeding?
I have personally held an F2 PyromelanaXAlterna that was pastelish-green.

Statements can be made on the basis we are just offering up ideas on what "could" be happening.

Maybe it's like the whole thing with flamingos, they get their pink color from the shrimp they eat.

I vote progression photos for sure.

 

[Kokopelli]

Hmm... I notice from time to time my Amel corn's tummy is darker after a meal. So It could just be the food moving through the body that you are seeing to cause the color issue. You see the darker prey though the pale areas of skin kinda thing. Who knows. It's worth tanking a few progression photos of if you get the chance.




Statements can be made on the basis we are just offering up ideas on what "could" be happening.

Maybe it's like the whole thing with flamingos, they get their pink color from the shrimp they eat.

I vote progression photos for sure.

Have to disagree- when you hypothesize, make suggestions- Don't make conclusive statements
"I think it is probably your imagination" to me sounds as a bit conclusive- especially as I don't recall Wade had much experience with hybrids(correct me if I'm wrong?).

 

[kadaysa]

Well I am certain his color has changed in less than a weeks time, it is not in just an area it is definitely a tint of green consistently all over. I will most definitely take some photos and post tonight. I promise you he is definitely not the same color as he was when I received him. I honestly have quite a few snakes in my collection and have not seen anything even sort of like this at all. I was really hesitant of putting this post out there but I honestly was hoping someone would pop on and say, yes I have seen that as well. Mostly because my son's new cal king did the same thing but not quite all over like this and more yellow than what this , I will get a some photos up tonight...I promise I am not crazy :headbang:

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I can wager you are not crazy. It's just a little odd.

You said they are still eating/pooing/behaving normally?

Hmmm can't wait to see the pics! I asked a couple of the fellow herpers here at work and got quizzical looks from them.

 

[wade]

Oren you are correct that I have never had a Thayeri X Pueblan X Cal King X Corn hybrid. I have raised all four of those species in their pure form. None of them have a green form or even a tendency for green. But more importantly, what I posted above was a bunch of nonsense. It was mindless babble and I suspect that you did not read it since you took it to mean something.

Having read everyone else’s ideas I am of the opinion that it is either a trick with the lighting or it is the imagination of the OP.

 

[salvadorian]

I want to see a picture!

 

[arrowhd]

I don't have any experience with hybrids, but have been keeping Cal. kings for several years. Never seen anything like you are describing. Anything the animal could come in physical contact with that would explain a color change from a dye or something like that?

 

[kadaysa]

okay I pulled him out and poor thing put him under a standard light bulb and a flourescent light and his coloring under both of those seems to be more yellow buckskinnyish. When in the dark, in his tub he definitely has a super strong green hue. I have a new DSLR camera and I tried to disable the flash but then cannot use the preset settings so had to take pictures with the flash. I have no experience with photos, hence the purchase of a DSLR to learn and need to learn still, so that stinks, sorry, wish I knew what I was doing. These clearly did not capture how green the hue is, its like the more light from the flash the lighter in color he became, more yellow like. Sorry the photos aren't the best, honestly I am disappointed that I couldn't capture the true color without the light but take a peek and let me know what you think at least you can get an idea I am going to shoot an email to the breeder as well, I have ony had the snake a week maybe he can tell me what he thinks.

photos with flash

 

[wade]

I think it is a beautiful snake. I think you have so many gene piled up in there that if it flashed off and on like a neon sign I don't think anyone would be surprised. He may grow horns after his next shed.

 

[Floof]

Okay... With how little I know about king snakes and the like... Is it possible these are his "true" colors? You said he was in shed when he arrived, and turned greenish toward the end and after, right? (Unless I misunderstood that, or my memory is worse than I thought..) I'm sure we've all seen how being in shed can mess with a snake's colors... For example, my normal ball python's stomach is a brilliant baby pink today because she happens to be in blue. Certainly not normal, but no more far-fetched than the idea of the "blue" stage eliminating your hybrid's green tone.

That's my theory, anyway. :shrugs:

I think it is a beautiful snake. I think you have so many gene piled up in there that if it flashed off and on like a neon sign I don't think anyone would be surprised. He may grow horns after his next shed.

Wade, you rock. Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Kokopelli]

Oren you are correct that I have never had a Thayeri X Pueblan X Cal King X Corn hybrid. I have raised all four of those species in their pure form. None of them have a green form or even a tendency for green. But more importantly, what I posted above was a bunch of nonsense. It was mindless babble and I suspect that you did not read it since you took it to mean something.

Having read everyone else’s ideas I am of the opinion that it is either a trick with the lighting or it is the imagination of the OP.

I personally held such animals ... I didn't understand your insistence even though you haven't had experience with said hybrids... I simply don't understand your resolution to contradict a person who -had- experience.

In total I saw 3- 2 were hatchlings undergoing a phase and later brightened back up(all occured within a month's time) and another who grew to be an adult with a definite light green tint(reminding the hospital scrubs a bit)- he however died in a fire a few years ago.

I personally would have refrained from suggesting that:
1- the OP is dellusional/not able to judge and asses when it's a light affect and when it's not
2- a person who -did- raise and breed such hybrids too, doesn't know what he's talking about.

I personally hatched F2 AlternaXPyromelana that were white- Alterna nor Pyromelanas are white, but the offspring were, so I can't claim that having known the species in their pure forms mean I will be able to accurately predict the outcome of out-crossing. This year, even more extreme hatchlings hatched(not mine, Alon's- I stopped working with colubrids).

I guess I would have simply yielded had I known that I didn't have experience with a certain animal... rather than go on and repeat an opinion(which sheds a negative light on the OP) based on things that may or may not be relevant.

Whether or not it's the case here... I don't know, but it's not impossible, I've seen it more than once.

I'll get over it *shrug*

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I think you are taking things to personal. Just my opinion. And I'm done with the issue, we can all agree to disagree.

To the OP, I did a little research and talked to a few local folks who have hybrids last night. They are of the belief it is a trick of the light reflecting off the iridescent scales. The mixture of genes in that snake have the potential to create an unpredictable variation of colors. So in my opinion you have a very lovely snake, keep good photo records, and make sure it stays healthy and you should have nothing to worry about. Enjoy it as it grows up and keep us posted in a progression thread as it does.

 

[Kokopelli]

I think you are taking things to personal. Just my opinion. And I'm done with the issue, we can all agree to disagree.

To the OP, I did a little research and talked to a few local folks who have hybrids last night. They are of the belief it is a trick of the light reflecting off the iridescent scales. The mixture of genes in that snake have the potential to create an unpredictable variation of colors. So in my opinion you have a very lovely snake, keep good photo records, and make sure it stays healthy and you should have nothing to worry about. Enjoy it as it grows up and keep us posted in a progression thread as it does.

I can't say I am insulted on a personal level or anything... it's the attitude that bugs me.... Wade simply triggered it, even if he didn't mean it. People back home here are almost -impossible- to talk to... everyone goes into a piss content of who knows more and what... it drives me bananas. Probably Wade unintentionally triggered my harbored disdain for that behavior.

Just for kicks:

Here's an F2 PyromelanaXAlterna - the pic is horrid but the color is exact, he is -that- white.

And another cute sibling:

**pics were taken by Alon Berger**

 

[tyflier]

It's the light. I promise you, your snake is not turning green. I have seen green and yellow color casts on wild, pure Cali kings, and other captive colubrids that have a lot of natural white coloration.

It all boils down to the type of light. Under incandescant, tungsten, or flourescent lighting, your white snakes will reflect the various temperature color-casts of your light source.

It actually happens with all non-metallic reflective surfaces(meaning all of your snakes), it's just more noticeable when the surface(snake) is white.

Oren-
This has NOTHING to do with the animal being a hybrid. This is ALL about light temperature and color cast. It's an issue that photographers deal with daily, and is one reason why we typically have a thousand different temperatuers and styles of lightbulb for lighting different subjects. It's also why we use things like bouncers, deflectors, diffusers, funnels, and all sorts of other eat little tricks to control light direction, temperature, reflectivity, and color.

You're insistance that dealing with these animals as hybrids gives you more knowledge is just as wrong as Wade's suggestion that it was the OP's imagination. Don't take yourself so seriously...

 

[Kokopelli]

It's the light. I promise you, your snake is not turning green. I have seen green and yellow color casts on wild, pure Cali kings, and other captive colubrids that have a lot of natural white coloration.

It all boils down to the type of light. Under incandescant, tungsten, or flourescent lighting, your white snakes will reflect the various temperature color-casts of your light source.

It actually happens with all non-metallic reflective surfaces(meaning all of your snakes), it's just more noticeable when the surface(snake) is white.

Oren-
This has NOTHING to do with the animal being a hybrid. This is ALL about light temperature and color cast. It's an issue that photographers deal with daily, and is one reason why we typically have a thousand different temperatuers and styles of lightbulb for lighting different subjects. It's also why we use things like bouncers, deflectors, diffusers, funnels, and all sorts of other eat little tricks to control light direction, temperature, reflectivity, and color.

You're insistance that dealing with these animals as hybrids gives you more knowledge is just as wrong as Wade's suggestion that it was the OP's imagination. Don't take yourself so seriously...

oh boy, :roflmao::roflmao:

You know what? you're right- obviously having hatched two such individuals and held an adult means I'm wrong because Tyflier never saw such a snake. Woe to experience and eye-witnessing, obviously you knowing your way with cameras mean you know all there is to know about animal pigmentation.
And -I- take myself too seriously... if I felt any -possible- guilt of being stubborn, you just blew it out the window.

 

[wade]

I can't say I am insulted on a personal level or anything... it's the attitude that bugs me.... Wade simply triggered it, even if he didn't mean it. People back home here are almost -impossible- to talk to... everyone goes into a piss content of who knows more and what... it drives me bananas. Probably Wade unintentionally triggered my harbored disdain for that behavior.

Oren, Your snake pictures were outstanding, those are beautiful snakes. Sorry if I tripped one of your triggers. It was not intentional. As I said I have never had a snake hybrid of that particular combination but I still don't think the snake is turning green.