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So let me get this straight.

Kat said:
To note, it's neither inaccurate nor inappropriate to use shorthands like "het ghost", "motley het stripe", or "ultramel".
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Het ghost is inaccurate because "ghost" is not a trait. It is the phenotype resulting from two seperate, independent mutations. Motley het stripe is inaccurate because the snake is not homozygous for motley.

Furthermore, alternate names like "Black Albino" and "Albino" are not inappropriate either. There is no requirement that the label on the snake be "scientifically accurate" so long as it's a reasonable and non-misleading description (to anyone with the cornsnake vocabulary) of what the snake is or is carrying.
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Both terms are misleading. Neither "Black Albino" or "Albino", as the terms have been used to described corn snakes, are "albino" at all. Neither morph results in the suppression of all color in the snakes homozygous for them. Continuing to use the terms only serves to misinform the succeeding generation of hobbyists. Why not use the terms that are both accurate and unlikely to lead to confusion?

For example, "human" is a perfectly good description of most people on these forums, but Homo sapiens is more scientifically accurate.
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"Homo sapiens" is not more accurate than "human", merely more precise. Both expressions are true. "Black albino" is not; "Red albino" is not.

So anyway... my point is, it's perfectly OK to use "het ghost" and the like, and it's actually less wordy and perfectly understandable to the majority of the cornsnake hobbyists.
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The fact that an inaccurate description is widely used doesn't make it less inaccurate, just more pernicious.
 
My point is, it's OKAY to use these terms. Using these terms does not make you a bad breeder, ignorant breeder, or imply that you're trying to misrepresent something. Anybody in the cornsnake world should know what these terms really mean. Your posts imply that it's inappropriate to use these terms... I disagree. Some may be a bit archaic, but should still be in the vocabulary of the cornsnake hobbyist. To argue that people need to put "Anerythristic Hypomelanistic" on the label instead of "Ghost" is silly. I guarantee you the former will draw more blank stares than the latter. People who actually care about breeding corns and getting morphs will need to learn the terminology. There is no excuse for a cornsnake breeder NOT to know (or quickly learn) that a Ghost is a combination of Anery and Hypo.
As for the Black Albino/Red Albino thing, it's less of an attempt at inaccuracy and more an attempt at simplifying things for the people who don't understand cornsnakes and pigments, and don't really care. How many people can even pronounce "Anerythristic" on this site? How can you expect someone who's just buying a pet to care enough to understand the term? It's these sorts of people that need to see the term "Black Albino", because then they know what it means... it's lacking some sort of color, which causes it to look black. If you start talking pigments with nearly unpronouncable names, their eyes just glaze over and they'll move on to the next table.

Incidentally, this is not to imply that people who only buy corns as pets are stupid, but there does seem to be a large portion that prefer to remain ignorant of cornsnake genetics... which if all they want is a pet, is perfectly fine.

Oh... and as long as we're being nitpicky...
"Homo sapiens" is not more accurate than "human", merely more precise.
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How do you differentiate between "accurate" and "precise" in this context?

-Kat
 
jaxom1957 said:
Motley het stripe is inaccurate because the snake is not homozygous for motley.
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But isn't that like saying that "normal het amel" is inaccurate because the snake is not homozygous for "not amel" (i.e. not 'homozygous normal')?

We say normal het amel to indicate that the animal is a visual appearance (wild-type) but carries a copy of the genetic type (amel). Motley het stripe conveys exactly the same information - the animal is visually motley - but carries stripe.

And if "Amel het ghost corn snake" sells more than "amelanistic het anerythristic, hypomelanistic Pantherophis guttattus" I would be no more surprised than finding out that "veal" sells better than "caged baby cow meat". One might be more technically accurate, but the other is a layman's term.
 
Kat said:
To argue that people need to put "Anerythristic Hypomelanistic" on the label instead of "Ghost" is silly.
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I have no problem with calling it "Ghost". That is the generally accepted term for the phenotype. The problem is with calling it "het for Ghost". You are no longer describing a phenotype: you are describing the genotype. Genotypically, the animal is heterozygous for two independent morphs, not for a single morph that produces the Ghost phenotype. Once you begin to describe the genetic potential of the snake when bred, accuracy is important. An inaccurate description leads to inaccurate results. This thread was started by someone wanting to predict offspring.

I guarantee you the former will draw more blank stares than the latter. People who actually care about breeding corns and getting morphs will need to learn the terminology. There is no excuse for a cornsnake breeder NOT to know (or quickly learn) that a Ghost is a combination of Anery and Hypo.
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By extension, will "Plasma" inform or confuse the majority of buyers? Experienced corn snake breeders are not selling just to other experienced corn snake breeders. They are also selling to novices. In the mind of many a novice, there lies the dream of someday breeding their snake. They are not paying more money for an animal that is "het for ghost" because it makes a better pet. They are doing so because of the potential to produce ghost offspring. You are no longer describing how their snake appears; you are dangling the carrot of how future offspring will appear. That requires the accuracy of listing the seperate traits as just that, seperate. The extra bother of writing or saying "het hypo and anery" instead of "het ghost" is the difference between giving useful information or just making a sale.

As for the Black Albino/Red Albino thing, it's less of an attempt at inaccuracy and more an attempt at simplifying things for the people who don't understand cornsnakes and pigments, and don't really care. How many people can even pronounce "Anerythristic" on this site? How can you expect someone who's just buying a pet to care enough to understand the term?
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Most first graders can say "anery". How much confusion are you causing by describing a snake with the oxymoronic "black albino"? How many times do you want to answer the question, "If it's albino, why is it black?" "If it's albino, why is it orange?" "Albino" doesn't mean "missing some color", it means missing all color. It shouldn't be the practice of those breeding and selling an animal to assume their buyers are two stupid to understand the terminology that accurately describes what they are buying, and to therefor perpetuate the use of a label that is flat wrong.

It's these sorts of people that need to see the term "Black Albino", because then they know what it means... it's lacking some sort of color, which causes it to look black. If you start talking pigments with nearly unpronouncable names, their eyes just glaze over and they'll move on to the next table.
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I'm sorry, but most people who are not already familiar with corn snakes do NOT know what the term, "Black Albino" means. "Amel", "Anery" or "Hypo" are not unpronouncable by anyone capable of pronouncing "corn snake". What you are left to explain remains the same: "It has no red or orange, just black", "It has no black, just reds and oranges" or "It has less black than normal". At least you are beginning the conversation with an accurate label and giving detail when required, instead of applying a misleading or oxymoronic label and trying to correct the mistaken impressions that needn't have occured in the first place.

How do you differentiate between "accurate" and "precise" in this context?
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Grammatical accuracy denotes the truth of the words; grammatical precision denotes the specificity.
 
jaxom1957 said:
This thread was started by someone wanting to predict offspring.
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Exactly! If someone is interested in breeding, then they need to do their homework first, and learning and understanding the genetics behind the morphs is a very important part. If someone wants to win the Daytona 500, they had better learn how to drive a car.
 
jaxom1957 said:
"Amel", "Anery" or "Hypo" are not unpronouncable by anyone capable of pronouncing "corn snake".
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That's true, but what are we going to do when the hypoxanthic and hypoerythristic mutant genes present themselves? ;)
 
Roy Munson said:
That's true, but what are we going to do when the hypoxanthic and hypoerythristic mutant genes present themselves? ;)
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Call it a day and crack open a beer?
 
Roy Munson said:
That's true, but what are we going to do when the hypoxanthic and hypoerythristic mutant genes present themselves?
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Expand our vocabulary. If "hypo" has to be broken down into "hypo black", "hypo yellow" and "hypo red", so be it. At least the terms accurately reflect what is being altered, and the breeder need only explain that "hypo" means "reduced".
 
jaxom1957 said:
Expand our vocabulary. If "hypo" has to be broken down into "hypo black", "hypo yellow" and "hypo red", so be it. At least the terms accurately reflect what is being altered, and the breeder need only explain that "hypo" means "reduced".
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Aw, you forgot to include my winky when you quoted my post. You'll be happy when finally I'm enthroned as the Emperor of The Known Universe; I will be abolishing all corn trade names. But until then, I guess we both have to suffer them. ;) ;)
 
Roy Munson said:
You'll be happy when finally I'm enthroned as the Emperor of The Known Universe; I will be abolishing all corn trade names. ;) ;)
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:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
 
Roy Munson said:
Aw, you forgot to include my winky when you quoted my post. You'll be happy when finally I'm enthroned as the Emperor of The Known Universe; I will be abolishing all corn trade names. But until then, I guess we both have to suffer them. ;) ;)
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Sorry 'bout that. It actually seemed like a logical next question. I tend to get very caught up in discussions, so irony, satire and other witticisms are lost on me. I regularly seesaw between "smartass" and "humorless twit", and your post caught me in "humorless twit" mode. :shrugs:
 
Now that I feel like an idiot.....

:awcrap: after reading this thread I feel dumber than before I started trying to read and learn about how the genetics of snake breeding works... and what got me interested was the question about breeding a ghost snake.. cause that is what I have as well. I have no clue :shrugs: if he is het for anything and now Im totally :confused: :confused: as to what "type" female i should purchase to figure out what, if anything, he is het for.
:crazy02: :crazy02: :headbang: :headbang: <--that about sums it up for me. lol
 
ladydragon said:
what got me interested was the question about breeding a ghost snake.. cause that is what I have as well....as to what "type" female i should purchase to figure out what, if anything, he is het for.
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The answer depends on what you want to produce.

If you breed him to anything that is not at least anery or hypo (the two components that make up "ghost"), the only thing you can guarantee in the offspring is that they will be het for hypo and het for anery, but will, in all likelihood, look normal.

If you breed him to an anery, all of the offspring would get anery from both parents, as well as hypo from him, so would all be anery het hypo.

If you breed him to a hypo, all of the offspring would get hypo from both parents, as well as anery from him, so would all be hypo het anery.

If you breed him to a ghost, all of the offspring should be ghost.

If you breed to a snow, which is anery and amel, the offspring would get anery from both parents, hypo from him and amel from her, so would be anery het hypo + amel.

That covers the most common choices. Anything else that pops up will give you more of an idea of what hets he might carry.

My suggestion would be to breed him to an amel het hypo + anery. The offspring would be:

25% Normal het Amel + Anery + Hypo
25% Anery het Amel + Hypo
25% Hypo het Amel + Anery
25% Anery Hypo ("Ghost") het Amel

At least four different looking babies, but you can tell exactly what each is het for! If you produce any snows or amels, that tells you he is het for amel. How does that sound?
 
lol... still confusing!! but Im trying to learn.. just slow go I guess. thanx though.. sounds like it could be very interesting to breed him and I just might learn how this works too. now to just get a girl for him.....
 
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