Stargazing

[Serpwidgets]

Heh, I think this thread split into two topics and we're talking about the different topics...

1 - The original topic of what might be causing that snake's apparent neurological symptoms.

2- The branched off topic of "stargazing" which, in corns, is known from the sunkissed lines as a heritable trait.

Stargazing (encephalitis) is generally caused by temperatures in excess of 100 degrees for more than a few hours, viruses, tumors, trauma and amoebic protozoans...Almost every single case is caused by bacterial infection.

They should be taken to a vet and treated.

Reading back, that post was addressing topic 1. But I totally missed that, because the more recent discussion had been on topic 2... I somehow got the idea that you were saying Shep and Quigs were possibly getting temp or other problems. There was no defensiveness, simply pointing out that this wouldn't have been likely as a cause on topic #2.

The ones that have been identified in corns happen at hatching or shortly thereafter, and it appears to be inherited like a simple-recessive trait: in the clutches where they have appeared, approx 25% of the clutch exhibits it and the rest of the clutch is normal. I think this pretty much rules out incubation temperatures as a culprit.

For the record, I agree with the advice given for the first snake, yes it should be taken to a vet to determine what is wrong.

As for topic #2, ya, there's something known as "Stargazing" in corns but it is obviously not the same thing that affected your boa.

 

[Shep151]

Yeah, I guess we hijacked a thread, didn't we? :eek1:
Sorry!

 

[Hurley]

Heh, yeah, sorry bout the that... Starting a new thread, and I'll copy some messages over.


edited to add:

OK, I just posted a link, way too many quotes to move, lol.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177488#post177488

Back to your regularly programmed discussion of the snake in question originally. I hope it's doing better.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I think maybe, to stop any confusion...The term "stargazing" should be used strictly for what it was originally meant...and a new term should be used to describe this genetic defect...

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think maybe, to stop any confusion...The term "stargazing" should be used strictly for what it was originally meant...and a new term should be used to describe this genetic defect...

I hardly think saying "strictly" makes any sense here. Stargazing is a very generalized term for a class of symptoms, and is applicable in many cases that have (as you listed) a very wide range of causes. The gene Kathy is talking about causes that symptom, and we really know nothing else about it. So unless or until a specific mechanism can be isolated, there's nothing else to call the gene other than by describing the phenotype it causes, that phenotype being... stargazing.

I don't get it. It's ok to use it if it's caused by hyperthermia, viruses, tumors, trauma, or amoebic protozoans, but if it's caused by a genetic defect, that might be confusing... :shrugs:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I say not use this term in regards to this "defect" because true "star-gazing" is know to be caused by unusually hight temps, viruses, tumors, trauma and amoebic protozoans. The accurate use of it does not describe it as a birth defect. It causes confusion (as I think you can tell by my post, I was thoroughly confused why you were calling "star-gazing" a birth defect). If it is not the true sense of "star-gazing" but mimics it in any certain way, then it is an inaccurate term.

A quote from Kathy from the other thread "So we just started calling them stargazers for lack of a better term. But I see now it is confusing to name a congenital problem with the same name as the symptoms of an infectious disease or toxic reaction."

Anyway, my point was...IMHO the term should be used properly as it has been for many, many years...and their should be a seperation between genetic issues and disease/toxin issues.

 

[Hurley]

Star-gazing is a symptom, not a disease. Boid people were not the first to use the term star-gazing and they won't be the last. When you have a condition that the cause is unknown, the best you can do is call it by its signs until you know. If boids with star-gazing have an infection, then why not call that disease infectious encephalitis? Goats with star-gazing are typically suffering from listeriosis...but goat farmers still call it star-gazing most of the time. You see it in birds, you see it in rabbits...you see it in all species because it's a symptom.

Since bacterial star-gazing is rarely seen in corn snakes, why would we restrict the use of a good description of the cardinal sign in the more common form of star-gazing?

This is akin to "wobblers disease" in horses and dogs. There are multiple anatomic causes for wobblers, but it gets lumped under the prominent clinical sign.

In snakes there are various causes of "star-gazing", and I guess I fail to see why you would single out a heritable form as being "not ok" to call star-gazing, but all others are acceptable (toxin, infection, trauma, others). Again, it's a symptom, not specific to any one disease and already in wide use for any disease causing an animal to throw its head back.

If you want to use "heritable star-gazing" or "genetic star-gazing" or "corn snake star-gazing" or "sunkissed star-gazing" for clarification, you are welcome to. In corn snakes, this is the disease that the term star-gazing has been most used with and I fail to see why we should quit using it.

 

[CAV]

Uhhhhh......

I just read this whole thread and it has nothing to do with aliens, astronomy or celebrities! :shrugs:

There! Now others won't be disappointed! (The last one is specifically for Mary Beth. :nyah: )

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.......

 

[Mary-Beth]

Ahhhhhhhh! A flock of whippoorwills just landed in my yard and a calf was born with two heads. :grin01: EEEEEEEEEVIL!