Studies on dog behavior!

[Drizzt80]

And quote below. Besides, it is about using positive reinforcement on a puppy to not require more strict training on an unruly adult dog, not to train a dog through negative reinforcement. I can understand the use of more harsh methods of training to control dangerous and unpredictable dogs as a last resort, not for the benefit of quickly controlling a dog through fear based training.

You need to learn how to read. I could recommend some great places to get help with this. Just let me know.

Pack leader uses a rod, very interesting.

So does a fisherman. Speaking of fishing, I'm really really good at fishing. Cutbait sucker works great for catfish. You don't need any of that other fancy schmancy stuff they sell on the shelves. Here's what you do. You really need to have fresh suckers for this. You can euthenize by any means necessary, but a good clunk over the head works great. What you want to do is cut about a 1/2" to 1" section of the main body. Leave the innards!! This is what gets them cats coming in strong. The more blood, the longer the trail in the water for the cats to follow. Did you know they can smell your bait for up to a mile downriver!!!??? That's amazing. They also reportedly have 250,000 taste bugs. That's 250 times more than a human. I don't mean to be arrogant or anything, I'm just sharing the information I know about catfishing. Go ahead, ask me anything you'd like.

http://dogpublic.com/articles/articl...id=14&pid=1640

The requested resource could not be found, but thanks anyway. I'm sure it's THE word on training.

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

Surprise, another "answer the question speech".

But you're so knowledgeable on this subject, I'd think you'd want to share your knowledge and techniques with specific situations. Guess not. :shrugs:

I'd love to see the field work test results/certification of your wonderful, highly trained German Shepherd. Please.\

Waiting . . . :shrugs:

While you're at it, if I'm not mistaken you have two German Shepherds. Could you humor me and let me know exactly how many times you've had to break up a fight between them (if you say none, I'll call you a liar, point blank). Second, due to those fights, which one is the boss in the house (if you say neither, I'll call you a liar point blank as well.)? Extending that further, please explain the positive reinforcements the boss dog used to establish their dominance, since you so fervently believe that is the one true way dogs learn. Please.

If I was to offer courses it would most likely be through the humane society,

The same humane society that doesn't even want you owning dogs and is in league with peta? It's all coming together and starting to make sense now.

D80

 

[Michael823]

While you're at it, if I'm not mistaken you have two German Shepherds. Could you humor me and let me know exactly how many times you've had to break up a fight between them (if you say none, I'll call you a liar, point blank). Second, due to those fights, which one is the boss in the house (if you say neither, I'll call you a liar point blank as well.)?
D80

They have NEVER gotten into a fight, and if you called me a liar I would take it as a compliment. None of my dogs have ever gotten into a dog fight with one another, that is an absolute undeniable fact, and is the result of proper training.

Extending that further, please explain the positive reinforcements the boss dog used to establish their dominance, since you so fervently believe that is the one true way dogs learn. Please.

Check my first link! And enough of your "iron fist, I'm so macho, dominant leader, bla bla bla".

 

[diamondlil]

What has been very interesting is to compare different schools of thought both in how to teach and how to ride. There's big money in becoming 'the last word' if you can syndicate and sell your way of training, like Parelli has done. (A very slick operation indeed, encompassing training courses, demonstrations, instructional book systems, videos, tv programmes, branded equipment etc)
Working through the books and videos, Parelli, Dorrence, Hemphling, Moffett and others is fascinating. Kim's best advice to me is that she tries to take out of each approach what will suit the individual horse, rider, their problems and how they respond.
I can see parallels in the dog training world, where getting a balanced approach to what does or doesn't work for each situation seems the healthiest solution for any trainer to take.

 

[Michael823]

The same humane society that doesn't even want you owning dogs and is in league with peta? It's all coming together and starting to make sense now.

D80

Seems your generalization of German Shepherds is about as misinformed as this statement. It is the local Humane Society, funded by local public donations. You are naive to think that a shelter which spends their own time and money to save dogs, and adopt them out, doesn't want them as pets. Are you saying Humane Societies are bad?

 

[mike17l]

And quote below. Besides, it is about using positive reinforcement on a puppy to not require more strict training on an unruly adult dog, not to train a dog through negative reinforcement. I can understand the use of more harsh methods of training to control dangerous and unpredictable dogs as a last resort, not for the benefit of quickly controlling a dog through fear based training.

And once again, a great example of assuming. I once heard it said that "Questions are the root to discovery". If you would have asked what he meant by that you prolly would have found out. Instead you assumed he was going to "beat" or "shock" his new 59 day old puppy. When in reality "the rod" has meant many different types of punishment for many different people. Brent could have meant a literal steel rod, he could have meant an e-collar, he could have meant a leather belt, he could have meant a 5' piece of chain, he could have meant a cat of 9 tails, or he could have merely meant a rolled up piece of news paper that would be used to lightly tap the dog on the nose when he chews on things he shouldn't.

Again, I will say it again, stop assuming things.

 

[Michael823]

What has been very interesting is to compare different schools of thought both in how to teach and how to ride. There's big money in becoming 'the last word' if you can syndicate and sell your way of training, like Parelli has done. (A very slick operation indeed, encompassing training courses, demonstrations, instructional book systems, videos, tv programmes, branded equipment etc)
Working through the books and videos, Parelli, Dorrence, Hemphling, Moffett and others is fascinating. Kim's best advice to me is that she tries to take out of each approach what will suit the individual horse, rider, their problems and how they respond.

I've noticed a huge difference myself from the few trainers I've worked with. One was especially brilliant, and really mastered in specialized training, all of which encompassed positive reinforcement methods.

I can see parallels in the dog training world, where getting a balanced approach to what does or doesn't work for each situation seems the healthiest solution for any trainer to take.

Right, but even in the horse world I'm sure negative reinforcement training is frowned upon, and would never use prong collars, shock collars, or a rod to train them.

 

[mike17l]

I would still ove to hear your opinion on this topic:

You make mention of "failure" or "set backs", how would you, using only "positive reinforcement", train a dog to not go up to a rattlesnake? In South Texas, Western Diamondbacks are very prevalent, it is essential to the life of the dog that they do not put their face (or other body part) in a rattlesnake's strike zone. The only way I have ever effectively seen a dog learn to flee from a rattlesnake is with the use of an e-collar and negative reinforcement. Now I am not going to say that I have seen more dogs trained than you, because well that would be arrogant of me, but I will say that I have seen many many dogs trained to avoid snakes, as well as I have trained many dogs to avoid snakes. The fact is, the only effective way to "snake break" a dog is with the use of an e-collar. A rattlesnake will very rarely give a dog a second chance.

 

[Michael823]

And once again, a great example of assuming. I once heard it said that "Questions are the root to discovery". If you would have asked what he meant by that you prolly would have found out. Instead you assumed he was going to "beat" or "shock" his new 59 day old puppy. When in reality "the rod" has meant many different types of punishment for many different people. Brent could have meant a literal steel rod, he could have meant an e-collar, he could have meant a leather belt, he could have meant a 5' piece of chain, he could have meant a cat of 9 tails, or he could have merely meant a rolled up piece of news paper that would be used to lightly tap the dog on the nose when he chews on things he shouldn't.

Again, I will say it again, stop assuming things.

Sorry for assuming the accurate tool in which he would make contact to his dog with, I should have asked for the proper make and model before calling it cruelty !

 

[diamondlil]

I've noticed a huge difference myself from the few trainers I've worked with. One was especially brilliant, and really mastered in specialized training, all of which encompassed positive reinforcement methods.
Right, but even in the horse world I'm sure negative reinforcement training is frowned upon, and would never use prong collars, shock collars, or a rod to train them.

Oh no, you're totally wrong there. Some trainers (like Parelli) use negative reinforcement but use terms like 'making the right thing comfortable, the wrong thing uncomfortabe) High level training for dressage often uses spurs and severe bits. Used wrongly, instruments of torture and abuse. So along I come, a total softy who would rather not ride than be cruel. Condemming such devices. Then I've read and learnt more, met more riders and trainers and watched and listened to them.
The use of training aids in sensitive, rational, thoughtful approach means the minimum use in a way the horse can understand, with the use gradually getting less until not used at all. I'm not a good enough rider to use those aids, which is why Kim only puts me on well-schooled horses and ponies that don't need curb bits, double reins, spurs or even a schooling whip. On a horse that hadn't already learnt to respect and listen to the rider I'd have no chance at controlling it properly.
This doesn't mean some trainers and riders don't over-use and abuse the artificial aids, good riders and trainers don't though.

 

[Emily1188]

Alright, I have to say something. I do A LOT (probably too much) of dog training.

"Negative reinforcement" is not the opposite of "positive reinforcement". "Positive" and "negative" in this case have nothing to do with how the dog feels about it. It's not "positive" is something the dog likes, and "negative" is something bad. Positive simply means something added to the environment, and negative is something removed. That's it; there's no emotional connotation.

Components of Operant Conditioning

Some key concepts in operant conditioning:

A reinforcer is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:

Positive reinforcers are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.

Negative reinforcers involve the removal of an unfavorable events or outcomes after the display of a behavior. In these situations, a response is strengthened by the removal of something considered unpleasant.

In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior increases.


Punishment, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:

Positive punishment, sometimes referred to as punishment by application, involves the presentation of an unfavorable event or outcome in order to weaken the response it follows.

Negative punishment, also known as punishment by removal, occurs when an favorable event or outcome is removed after a behavior occurs.

from http://psychology.about.com/od/behavioralpsychology/a/introopcond.htm

You should know/be learning that, Michael, in your apprenticeship.

That said, I have very little to say except this: I know how I train. It's mostly positive reinforcement/negative punishment, with a little positive punishment (aka applied aversive) thrown in. I've got a dog that does veritable circus tricks, is an extremely well-mannered house pet, has a near perfect recall, and does off leash obedience under distraction.

So it works for me, and for my dog, and the dogs I've worked with. That doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. It is not the only, the best, or the definitive way to train. It's ONE way, for ONE girl and some dogs.

I use the evil prong collar ( ) and I have no objections to a properly used e-collar.

Michael, I sincerely wish you luck in your dog training journey. Might I suggest that you also apprentice under someone who makes regular and proper use of both prong and e-collars? You might be VERY surprised at what you see.

As for the horse thing.... No, actually, trainers frequently use light taps and slaps to control horses. Parelli refers to the "carrotstick", and says you need to know when to use the "carrot" (reward) and when to use the "stick" (punishment/discipline).

Yeah, what diamond lil said. lol.

 

[Emily1188]

You should know/be learning that, Michael, in your apprenticeship.

sorry, that sounded snotty, lol. I really just meant that it is something you will undoubtedly study, etc.

 

[Stregone]

Yeah. Negative and positive training go hand in hand. Using both properly is very powerful and actually creates a stronger bond between the handler and the animal. The key is to be consistent. You are using the reinforcement to communicate, not punish. It wouldn't be needed if we could just talk to them.

 

[Emily1188]

Yeah. Negative and positive training go hand in hand. Using both properly is very powerful and actually creates a stronger bond between the handler and the animal. The key is to be consistent. You are using the reinforcement to communicate, not punish. It wouldn't be needed if we could just talk to them.

I so agree! When I work with my dog, I feel like we're having a conversation - not like I'm punching conditioning instructions into a robot!

 

[diamondlil]

Yeah. Negative and positive training go hand in hand. Using both properly is very powerful and actually creates a stronger bond between the handler and the animal. The key is to be consistent. You are using the reinforcement to communicate, not punish. It wouldn't be needed if we could just talk to them.

Absolutely! Because my left leg is still weaker, Kim's trying to get me balanced enough to use a schooling whip to tickle and reinforce my communication with the horse on my left side. I just can't apply enough pressure on that side except with Merlin who compensates for my wonkiness. She wouldn't put a whip in my hand without explaining and showing me how to use it, if she thought I'd leather a horse with it she wouldn't let me anywhere near them anyway. But before I can carry a schooling whip I have to be balanced enough to use it without jerking on the reins. So being emotionally and physicaly balanced go hand n hand to learn how to ride properly.
Back on the dog training though, again being emotionally balanced in your approach to the dog means you're not going to overuse training aids if you want success. The end result you're aimng for is a happy, willing partner, responsive and eager to please.

 

[Ricky87]

My friend has completed her exams for schooling horses and teaching riders, but before she could go freelance officially she had to affiliate to the reguatory body to get her idemnity and insurance.
I help her unofficially, as in I'll sometimes school a horse under her supervision as part of her training programme for me. I'm covered by my own insurance as a leisure rider but not as an instructor, so it's on the understanding from the horse's owner that it's a lesson for me but just an exercise session for the horse.

That's really cool!. My mom used to work at a stable all the time growing up and helped with the training, riding, cleaning, etc. She never owned a horse of her own, due to lack of space and money, but I'm sure she never lost her interest!.

One really cool thing I saw on horse training though, was a behind the scenes on how they trained the horses for The Lord of the Rings movies, and it was just crazy. They would have 50+ horses just grazing in a field, and then periodically the trainer would just whistle and they would all come rushing at once to form a perfectly solid line. How they trained them was interesting, too. They would put down this square similar to a baseball plate/base, and that would be the horses mark. Then whenever the horse hit the mark on command, they would reward with oats and petting, and through that the horse would learn the exact spot of the mark. After a while they'd remove the plate, and the horses would still remember their mark and their order in the line. They did a lot more training than was on the DVD, such as moving in sequence, but just from what I saw I was blown away.

 

[Emily1188]

That's really cool!. My mom used to work at a stable all the time growing up and helped with the training, riding, cleaning, etc. She never owned a horse of her own, due to lack of space and money, but I'm sure she never lost her interest!.

One really cool thing I saw on horse training though, was a behind the scenes on how they trained the horses for The Lord of the Rings movies, and it was just crazy. They would have 50+ horses just grazing in a field, and then periodically the trainer would just whistle and they would all come rushing at once to form a perfectly solid line. How they trained them was interesting, too. They would put down this square similar to a baseball plate/base, and that would be the horses mark. Then whenever the horse hit the mark on command, they would reward with oats and petting, and through that the horse would learn the exact spot of the mark. After a while they'd remove the plate, and the horses would still remember their mark and their order in the line. They did a lot more training than was on the DVD, such as moving in sequence, but just from what I saw I was blown away.

That's awesome! I need to watch that...

BTW, that technique is called target training, and it's REAL FUN. And a great example of a modern positive reinforcement technique. My pup has been target trained to put her front feet on a book for various reasons.

 

[mike17l]

That's really cool!. My mom used to work at a stable all the time growing up and helped with the training, riding, cleaning, etc. She never owned a horse of her own, due to lack of space and money, but I'm sure she never lost her interest!.

One really cool thing I saw on horse training though, was a behind the scenes on how they trained the horses for The Lord of the Rings movies, and it was just crazy. They would have 50+ horses just grazing in a field, and then periodically the trainer would just whistle and they would all come rushing at once to form a perfectly solid line. How they trained them was interesting, too. They would put down this square similar to a baseball plate/base, and that would be the horses mark. Then whenever the horse hit the mark on command, they would reward with oats and petting, and through that the horse would learn the exact spot of the mark. After a while they'd remove the plate, and the horses would still remember their mark and their order in the line. They did a lot more training than was on the DVD, such as moving in sequence, but just from what I saw I was blown away.

That's great. uke02:

 

[Ricky87]

I so agree! When I work with my dog, I feel like we're having a conversation - not like I'm punching conditioning instructions into a robot!

Yeah. Negative and positive training go hand in hand. Using both properly is very powerful and actually creates a stronger bond between the handler and the animal. The key is to be consistent. You are using the reinforcement to communicate, not punish. It wouldn't be needed if we could just talk to them.

I agree!. Discipline is necessary , but never out of frustration or to punish. Dog's behave in a negative fashion at some point or another, and it shouldn't be acceptable. I just never believe in any kind of zap, pinch, or smack, even with a newspaper, and for me I use the ever boring but effective "cool down period".

When my dogs bark through the window at another dog I say "leave it", and if that doesn't work I herd the culprit into the living room and make him/her lie down. When he/she's calm down I give them leave to roam, and if they head back to the window it's "No", and then reinforcing it. For me it works very well, and I know people have different methods that work too, but the end-game is that it should always be out of love and not frustration. Dog training is labor-intensive, but very very rewarding. It's taught me a lot on using calmer energy when stressed. As for the prong collar, I would recommend this; http://www.puplife.com/collections/martingale-collars. I know I've posted this link a few times, but I swear by it. Thumb-screws are out-dated, and so should be prong collars. Not arguing at all, just suggesting, because as the technology in the world increases so do doggy products. This Martingale Collar from Lupine is a genius tool, and it provides the sense of control of a prong collar, along with the comfort of a regular collar. They're relatively inexpensive ($13), and have a lifetime guarantee, so you can replace them for free if they ever get destroyed. Their awesome!!.

 

[Ricky87]

That's awesome! I need to watch that...

BTW, that technique is called target training, and it's REAL FUN. And a great example of a modern positive reinforcement technique. My pup has been target trained to put her front feet on a book for various reasons.

I saw an act on "Pet Star" where a pug would pray with his hands crossed on a Bible. Chilling, but very entertaining!.