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Studies on dog behavior!

No.

A martingale does not provide the same control, or corrective capacity as a prong collar. I've used a martingale. I know what it is. It's not a prong. It doesn't work like one. Because it doesn't have prongs.

Do you have any experience with a prong collar? I've put one around my neck and let my friend give me a good solid pop. Like, twice the force I would use on the average dog.

Didn't hurt. And I'm a freakin' wimp. I sit there and play with one around my arm all the time. My dog has fallen asleep with it on.
 
No.

A martingale does not provide the same control, or corrective capacity as a prong collar. I've used a martingale. I know what it is. It's not a prong. It doesn't work like one. Because it doesn't have prongs.

Do you have any experience with a prong collar? I've put one around my neck and let my friend give me a good solid pop. Like, twice the force I would use on the average dog.

Didn't hurt. And I'm a freakin' wimp. I sit there and play with one around my arm all the time. My dog has fallen asleep with it on.
I just like the Martingale, because it's lightweight, closes snugly, and is has no risk to a dog physically. I'm not saying the prong collar doesn't work for you, though, but for me the Martingale provides the best control. Also, do you use a head harness?, because that in coordination with the Martingale is near flawless. I'm glad you tested it on your neck to be safe, though, and if it works for you then perfect. Clearly you love your dog very much and whatever makes you feel confident is what's important!!..
 
If your dog is soft enough that a martingale works then it works, thats okay. There is nothing wrong with a prong collar though. There is no risk it will hurt the dog. Its actually safer than a choke chain.
 
If your dog is soft enough that a martingale works then it works, thats okay. There is nothing wrong with a prong collar though. There is no risk it will hurt the dog. Its actually safer than a choke chain.
True!. I'm at least glad choke chains are honest about their intent to choke, though. That's about the only good thing about them!.
 
I do not currently use, recommend, or condone the use of head halters on average family dogs for common issues like pulling, lunging, etc.

I find them to be extremely forceful tools. I do not believe in retching a dog's head around under the guise of "training". Training to me means giving "yes" and "no" input, not using leverage to muscle the dog into position.

I know someone who's dog had to spend months with a chiropractor because the head halter had done some serious damage to the alignment of his spine.

I think everyone should read this before using a head halter:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/gentle_leader.html

I also think that 90% of dogs despise them, and often respond with repressed behavior.

I used one for a year. It's gone now, and I won't be using one anytime soon, especially not for run of mill stuff like pulling, lunging, reactivity, etc.

I'd probably be less opposed to them if I wasn't constantly seeing dogs nearly flipped over, or being lifted by their heads, or having the nose band riding up into their eyes. Even so, I used one "properly" for a year, and like I said, no way, no how.
 
I just like the Martingale, because it's lightweight, closes snugly, and is has no risk to a dog physically. I'm not saying the prong collar doesn't work for you, though, but for me the Martingale provides the best control. Also, do you use a head harness?, because that in coordination with the Martingale is near flawless. I'm glad you tested it on your neck to be safe, though, and if it works for you then perfect. Clearly you love your dog very much and whatever makes you feel confident is what's important!!..

Ive "shocked" my self with my e-collar. Didn't hurt me either, does that mean I love my dog?
 
I do not currently use, recommend, or condone the use of head halters on average family dogs for common issues like pulling, lunging, etc.

I find them to be extremely forceful tools. I do not believe in retching a dog's head around under the guise of "training". Training to me means giving "yes" and "no" input, not using leverage to muscle the dog into position.

I know someone who's dog had to spend months with a chiropractor because the head halter had done some serious damage to the alignment of his spine.

I think everyone should read this before using a head halter:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/gentle_leader.html

I also think that 90% of dogs despise them, and often respond with repressed behavior.

I used one for a year. It's gone now, and I won't be using one anytime soon, especially not for run of mill stuff like pulling, lunging, reactivity, etc.

I'd probably be less opposed to them if I wasn't constantly seeing dogs nearly flipped over, or being lifted by their heads, or having the nose band riding up into their eyes. Even so, I used one "properly" for a year, and like I said, no way, no how.
Just a head harness I'm against, but we have something called a "Happy Muzzle", which in coordination with the Martingale works perectly. Ciana actually likes the harness, apart from the itching, and she'll rush to put it on knowing it means "walk". For her it's a positive thing, and she never has any weird head movements with it on. Most of the time it's not needed, but sometimes it is and it does work well for us. I get where your coming from, though!.
 
These are great reads for those who may be unsure or unaware of these particular dog behavior studies, and proper training philosophies. I found them to be very informative, and thought some here might too.

Debunking the dominance myth.

http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640

Punishment.

http://www.understandingdogs.net/lib/File/AVSAB_punishment.pdf

Dog aggression.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090217141540.htm

I would like to point out that none of those "studies" are actual scientific studies. They are all opinion based articles. The third link, cited one journal, not quite what someone in a science based field would call a study. The first two had zero citations.
 
I would like to point out that none of those "studies" are actual scientific studies. They are all opinion based articles. The third link, cited one journal, not quite what someone in a science based field would call a study. The first two had zero citations.
Their simply observations. Take it or leave it!.
 
First, I want to reinforce something that Emily said, because there seems to still be some misunderstanding...

NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT is the REMOVAL of an unpleasant stimulus to reinforce a dog's behavior. Example- The dog stops pulling on the leash, the pressure on his neck is relieved.

POSITIVE PUNISHMENT is the addition of a negative stimulus to disrupt undesirable behavior. Example- the dog receives a shock when it barks.

So we seem to be debating positive punishment rather than negative reinforcement.

I'm starting to agree on the issue of head harnesses. I got one for my dog on the recommendation of a trainer I didn't know very well, but knew was experienced. My dog HATES IT, and scared the crud out of me by taking off after a squirrel one day and wrenching his neck badly. He wears a martingale because his head is so narrow that he can slip out of even a properly sized collar, but it is not used as a training too.

I do think that most things can be done with most dogs without the use of positive punishment. It takes longer, but in my opinion it is a better method of training and fosters a stronger bond between the dog and the handler. That's not to say that positive punishment doesn't have a place in dog training, but I think it is highly overused.
 
We also had bad experiences with the head halters... our dogs both would rub their faces on the ground, to the point of injury in some cases. I have talked to people for whom the head collars work, though.
 
That's not to say that positive punishment doesn't have a place in dog training, but I think it is highly overused.

I tend to agree. I can teach (and do so) anything without positive punishment; the issue is proofing and the reliability of said behaviors once they're learned.

Roger Hild cites a seminar by Ian Dunbar in which Dunbar stated that dogs trained with "properly timed positive punishment" achieved on average a reliability rate of 97%, while those trained with only pos. reinforcement and neg. punishment topped out at 83-85%.

Also, Gary Wilkes, who was a huge pioneer of clicker training (he was actually Karen Pryor's partner, but he simply hasn't capitalized on everything like she has), has an excellent article on the use of positive punishment why he feels it has it's place

...the concept that clicker training is "all positive" is a matter of personal choice rather than science or tradition. The real issue isn't whether you use some form of "negatives", the issue is whether your training techniques A) benefit your dog and B) cause no harm. (Coincidentally, those are the same ethics that separate a butcher from a surgeon.) Suggesting that training (mental health) should never include any form of discomfort is as impractical as requiring the same of a veterinarian or any other doctor.

So, it is my long-standing belief that there is a time and a place to say "NO!" Whether you use clicker training or some other method, there will come a day when you dog looks at you and says, "I don't think I'll do that." While this "willful disobedience" is often denied by "experts", it is a pretty common occurrence in the real world of dog training. For that matter, if you deny "willful disobedience" you must also deny possibility of "willful cooperation." This mechanistic view of dogs is not supported by objective observation. No matter how much one wants to pretend, dogs possess behaviors that are not automatically eliminated merely because we have a great way of teaching them new behaviors. When your dog is off-leash in a park and decides to chase a squirrel, it is too late to connect the word "No!" to an actual unpleasant consequence. If you are trusting "all positive" training to inhibit a dog's natural predatory behavior, you are likely to be disappointed, and your dog may be in jeopardy. That means that you must teach this association before you actually need to use it. So, two last reminders and we'll get started 1) If you have a problem with the use of harmless punishment, don't use it. 2) If you have a problem with making sure you "do no harm", don't use punishment as a training tool.

http://www.clickandtreat.com/Clicker_Training/GG/GG001/GG002/GG003/ff011.htm
 
What has been very interesting is to compare different schools of thought both in how to teach and how to ride. There's big money in becoming 'the last word' if you can syndicate and sell your way of training, like Parelli has done. (A very slick operation indeed, encompassing training courses, demonstrations, instructional book systems, videos, tv programmes, branded equipment etc)
Working through the books and videos, Parelli, Dorrence, Hemphling, Moffett and others is fascinating. Kim's best advice to me is that she tries to take out of each approach what will suit the individual horse, rider, their problems and how they respond.
I can see parallels in the dog training world, where getting a balanced approach to what does or doesn't work for each situation seems the healthiest solution for any trainer to take.
Janine, I liked this post, not because it was middle of the road, but because it was 'all inclusive'. Which is a principle that broadly applies to many things in life in general.
I have had to google the things like prong collar (probably seen and heard of it, but forgotten, over the years) and head halter (never heard of it), and others...but not because they are 'bad',...just 'other' than my immediate experience....which also does not make them 'bad'.
You all heard me say that I had a statistics professor in psychology grad school who with great success used a shock collar to train field competition labrador retrievers. I would not presume to tinker with the precision of the system he has developed.

What I can more accurately and more personally speak on is my job (and my training in the techniques I need to be proficient in) to best serve my clients.
In a given day, I may use Psychoanalytic, Gestalt, Adlerian, Rogerian, Cognitive-Behavioral, (as a few examples of clinical models of counseling therapy), each on a different client for a different situation. OR, I may use each of these major approaches on a single given client over the course of six months,...as an exercise, or to find the exact approach which works the best for that individual. I tried to list them in the order of their evolution, i.e., the order in which they were in vogue in the academic community. You are free to google them, I'm too lazy to cite a litany references. My personal preferences may CBT, and secondly, Rogerian, for my purposes,....but that does not mean other counselors are wrong for using other models. And there are papers by the way, that extol the virtues of them all.
What I'm saying is that people have choices in life. An individual, a breed of dog, the individual dog, and the type of behaviors you are training, be it general or specific, are all factors to consider when selecting the tools to use to do this training.
What I am also saying is that words like always, never, only, best, worst, right, wrong, first, last, etc., are dangerous and ill-suited in broad general discussions.
Now you'll have to excuse me. Brutus is telling me he needs to go outside. He has me trained quite well. I do not know his method or model, but it worked for him...I am well-trained and know what I have to do.
 
Now you'll have to excuse me. Brutus is telling me he needs to go outside. He has me trained quite well. I do not know his method or model, but it worked for him...I am well-trained and know what I have to do.

Negative re-enforcement. He tells you he needs to go. If you don't bring him outside, then you have to clean up a nasty mess on the floor. See? It worked very well......lol.



Mother nature (to jump back to a more original topic) uses negative re-enforcement to teach us lessons. That's goog enough proof for me. A paddle for trying to touch a hot stove works a lot faster and better than a candy bar for NOT touching it....lol.
 
Mother nature (to jump back to a more original topic) uses negative re-enforcement to teach us lessons. That's goog enough proof for me. A paddle for trying to touch a hot stove works a lot faster and better than a candy bar for NOT touching it....lol.

But that is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. :dgrin:
 
Negative re-enforcement. He tells you he needs to go. If you don't bring him outside, then you have to clean up a nasty mess on the floor. See? It worked very well......lol.



Mother nature (to jump back to a more original topic) uses negative re-enforcement to teach us lessons. That's goog enough proof for me. A paddle for trying to touch a hot stove works a lot faster and better than a candy bar for NOT touching it....lol.

Burning the tips of the fingers on a hot stove works even faster. LMAO :roflmao:

So I have a question for the e-collor users....how do you know what setting you are going to use on your dog? Do you go by the size of the dog or the negative behavior to judge? I don't use and e-collor, don't plan to. But I am curious how you know what to do and how strong to do it.

I guess when it comes down to it, dogs are a lot like kids. What works for one may not work for another. We have 5 boys in this house so I have to have different ways of dealing with things for each child. My dog, a labradore, is as much a kid as the kids are. She's well mannered though, mostly due to her constently being with me from the day she was 9 weeks old. She knows the common commands such as sit, shake, NO, stay, out, shower, ride, here and drop. I taught her to walk on a leash using a "Gentle Leader Headleash". She used that when she was small and now we use a anti-pull harness so she doesn't pull on the smaller kids when they want to take her out. I can take her out on a regular collar and leash with no issues. If she were to do some thing bad such as chew on a shoe, which she did many times, I used rolled up paper. Now all I have to do is say "Don't make me get the paper" and she goes to lay down. LOL
 
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