Roy Munson
New member
Can't rep you again, but you've got the right idea. I'd poop where she told me to...
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Studies on dog behavior!
- Thread starter Michael823
- Start date
Can't rep you again, but you've got the right idea. I'd poop where she told me to...
ceduke
Female Wiccan Heretic!!
Kathy: this is (not my picture) a head harness for dogs:
The idea is that if the dog pulls, it finds its head going a different direction than the one they were intending. Plus, the pressure it exerts on the nose is uncomfortable.
It DOES stop pulling in most dogs very quickly, but only when they are wearing it, and as mentioned, it is possible for the dog to injure itself very badly if they wrench their neck. Plus, most dogs hate it.
A similar tool that I like better is this one: (also not my picture)
Same idea, the dog pulls and suddenly finds itself going a different direction than they intended. Less potential for the dog to hurt itself, and it seems to be more comfortable for the dog as well.
The idea is that if the dog pulls, it finds its head going a different direction than the one they were intending. Plus, the pressure it exerts on the nose is uncomfortable.
It DOES stop pulling in most dogs very quickly, but only when they are wearing it, and as mentioned, it is possible for the dog to injure itself very badly if they wrench their neck. Plus, most dogs hate it.
A similar tool that I like better is this one: (also not my picture)
Same idea, the dog pulls and suddenly finds itself going a different direction than they intended. Less potential for the dog to hurt itself, and it seems to be more comfortable for the dog as well.
Ricky87
New member
Except Cesar doesn't only handle dangerous cases. That just happens to be his specialty. The Viszla on the show I saw was timid, and fearful and Cesar helped rehabilitate the dog through exercise and encouragement. What a concept, huh?.:idea: As for the neck injuries and esophagus crushing, whatever makes you feel good about zapping I guess?. The funny thing is that closed mindedness is the biggest setback in dog training, but if quoting me gives you your jolly....Glad I'm not the only one getting mixed messages...
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
"I watch Victoria Stilwell's show...well...kind of...because she is almost...well...a hottie.
In a certain spiked heels and leather & vinyl kind of way."
Come to think of it, that might be part of what annoys me, lol! She doesn't LOOK like a dog trainer, or that she even belongs in a place where dogs are being trained. I am very liberal about how people dress - I personally don't care whether people wear ballroom gowns or go naked, or sport tattoos, piercings - whatever makes them happy. BUT - some forms of dress do appeal aesthetically to me more than others. And I guess I just find her mannerisms and dress to be incongruous with what I happen to think befits a dog trainer. Maybe just my own personal quirks, but it is how she appears to me.
In a certain spiked heels and leather & vinyl kind of way."
Come to think of it, that might be part of what annoys me, lol! She doesn't LOOK like a dog trainer, or that she even belongs in a place where dogs are being trained. I am very liberal about how people dress - I personally don't care whether people wear ballroom gowns or go naked, or sport tattoos, piercings - whatever makes them happy. BUT - some forms of dress do appeal aesthetically to me more than others. And I guess I just find her mannerisms and dress to be incongruous with what I happen to think befits a dog trainer. Maybe just my own personal quirks, but it is how she appears to me.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
I ended up using a halti (head collar) after Ellie would just choke herself and pull so badly with a normal collar and could pull me right off my feet using a harness. I never pulled on it, just stopped and if necessary walked a few steps backwards if she tried to keep pulling. Suddenly I could enjoy walking her. She accepted it right away. Perhaps if she'd been tyring to lunge at something rather than just wanting to go faster than I could she could have hurt her neck, I can see how easily that could happen, but the halti worked well for us.
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Kathy, you are hilarious, and I repped you. Come to think of it, you are right.
Didn't someone say earlier that she had wanted to be an actress? Yeah, the facial expressions, editing, her manner of dress.....it all goes together to suggest "she's the star".
But I'm like Dean. In those vinyl pants and spiked heels....if she said sit, my a$$ would be hitting pavement so fast I'd have a bruised tailbone.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Honestly now, how is using an e-collar any different to how Cesar actually gives a quick jabbing kick or poke to a dog? I've seen him do it regularly in his shows.Except Cesar doesn't only handle dangerous cases. That just happens to be his specialty. The Viszla on the show I saw was timid, and fearful and Cesar helped rehabilitate the dog through exercise and encouragement. What a concept, huh?.:idea: As for the neck injuries and esophagus crushing, whatever makes you feel good about zapping I guess?. The funny thing is that closed mindedness is the biggest setback in dog training, but if quoting me gives you your jolly....
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Let the fire and brimstone fly.....but in the mid 1970's I had a pitty, who I was determined to train (against my father/Satan's desires) to act civilized.
I was sure I could make a pit-bull walk on a leash...with slack in the leash.
I walked him with a regular leash, hooked onto a regular collar. And had a peeled sapling limber twiggy thing, that was curved at the end, just so. Such that I could hold it just so, and it touched the dog nowhere, except where and when I tapped/annoyed the front of his nose with it, which had the result of interrupting his forward progress...and cascaded into the new behaviour of walking with slack in the leash.
*cough*......negative reinforcement.......*cough*
I was sure I could make a pit-bull walk on a leash...with slack in the leash.
I walked him with a regular leash, hooked onto a regular collar. And had a peeled sapling limber twiggy thing, that was curved at the end, just so. Such that I could hold it just so, and it touched the dog nowhere, except where and when I tapped/annoyed the front of his nose with it, which had the result of interrupting his forward progress...and cascaded into the new behaviour of walking with slack in the leash.
*cough*......negative reinforcement.......*cough*
Ricky87
New member
Sorry, I'm just sick of the snide remarks he comes up with. I probably should have left it alone, but I figured if he can dish it out, he can get it in return!.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
:roflmao:
If quoting you to point out your inconsistencies of idea, arrogance, and ignorance of the topic is what you meant by "jolly", then yes, I guess I am. I've already shown your inconsistencies above and many other times, but here's some more:
Arrogance:
Ignorance:
and Close Mindedness:
D80
PS. More ignorance:
I don't care how high on the neck the collar is. Throwing an 80-100 pound dog around by the neck isn't giving them a tickle regardless of how "professional" the trainer is.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Overview#tab-Videos/05198_00
PPS. I think there's a thread on euthanasia starting up. I'm sure you can head on over there and let us all know how much of an expert you are in that and how our methods suck. :shrugs: Just sayin'. That's your MO.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I can see how the head harness could work, if used properly. But I found the quick corrections with the choke chain stopped pulling, too.
My nephew bought an expensive, trained, hunting dog a number of years ago. The professional trainer worked with him and the dog. And he did use an e-collar for training the dog to the boundaries of the property. The trainer made my nephew wear the collar and experience the various settings to help him learn how to use it properly. It seemed to work, and without traumatizing the dog.
I think all this discussion just highlights what several people have already said - that any or all of these tools can be useful - in the right hands. And that they could all be abused by the unknowing, or uncaring, dog owner or trainer.
My nephew bought an expensive, trained, hunting dog a number of years ago. The professional trainer worked with him and the dog. And he did use an e-collar for training the dog to the boundaries of the property. The trainer made my nephew wear the collar and experience the various settings to help him learn how to use it properly. It seemed to work, and without traumatizing the dog.
I think all this discussion just highlights what several people have already said - that any or all of these tools can be useful - in the right hands. And that they could all be abused by the unknowing, or uncaring, dog owner or trainer.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Snide remarks?! I'm using your own words and examples. :roflmao: Bring it man. You haven't comprehended a word I've said since the beginning.
D80
Ricky87
New member
Enough trying to incite people!. This thread was all about sharing advice into you came in. I'm always so surprised to see that people who should be old enough to be mature fall so far into the depths of pettiness. Yay, you baited me and threw out words like "arrogant" and "ignorant". If you don't agree then post under your own thread, lord knows I'm done with it anyway. There's no point in sticking around bother me, which is clearly what your doing. It really is getting on my nerves, quite frankly.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
He? Cesar? I find his programmes entertaining and interesting, but then I enjoy programmes and books about working with animals. I don't agree with all of his methods but he does seem to get good results.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
"...I could hold it just so, and it touched the dog nowhere, except where and when I tapped/annoyed the front of his nose with it, which had the result of interrupting his forward progress...and cascaded into the new behaviour of walking with slack in the leash."
You REALLY ARE smarter than the dog, lol! Unfortunately, I have met some pet owners who don't seem as smart as their snake, let alone their dog, haha! It seems that a lot of times, owners just don't stop to think the situation through, rather than just reacting emotionally. Not a matter of how smart they are, but how much thought they put into the solution.
You REALLY ARE smarter than the dog, lol! Unfortunately, I have met some pet owners who don't seem as smart as their snake, let alone their dog, haha! It seems that a lot of times, owners just don't stop to think the situation through, rather than just reacting emotionally. Not a matter of how smart they are, but how much thought they put into the solution.
Ricky87
New member
Haven't comprehended a word you said from the beginning?. Sorry, I have no interest in digging through the trash for chewed gum. As for the "bring it", I'd prefer if you just left it. I don't want to be stuck arguing dog behavior with you, period. If I had any belief you were educated on the subject, believe me I would, but it's just a waste of time!.
Michael823
New member
And where did I say this? Please, point me to a post in which I said that I used Caesar's methods, and/or recommended them for dog training.
Show me where I went astray on training methods too? I want a clear post in which I was "hopping the fence".
I'm also waiting for you to officially call me a liar like you promised, I would honestly love an explanation on that accusation. Apparently it was impossible to have two German Shepherds that haven't fought, I disproved you there, and I would love to hear your explanation for the incredibly uneducated generalization that two German Shepherds that have lived together must have fought at some point.
For all of your sarcasm, baiting with quotes, name calling, etc... You have yet to provide any positive insight to this thread, literally none. You'll jump all over the fact that I like Caesar Milan's show (never once condoned the use of his methods for training), you try to discredit all of my posts through trying to associate some of his poor training techniques to my own, yet you were the one to suggest giving your dog "the rod" will teach it right from wrong.
I've posted a vast majority of my posts based simply on my ideas, only suggested training, and voiced an opinion based on what I felt was the best method. Whereas you just constantly post unproductive sarcasm, ridicule, and empty rhetoric as to not have to provide any solid fundamental philosophies.:shrugs::shrugs::shrugs::shrugs:
ZoologyGirl
Under Tank Heather
Actually, wouldn't that be positive punishment? In order to decrease the behavior (pulling) a stimulus is presented.
Positive = Stimulus presented
Negative = Stimulus removed
(positive and negative doesn't necessarily pertain to 'good' or 'bad', but rather if a stimulus is presented or removed from the environment)
Reinforcement = Increase likelihood of behavior
Punishment = Decrease likelihood of behavior
Shock collars, in most uses, are actually an example of positive punishment. In order to decrease the likelihood of a behavior, a stimulus (shock) is presented)
Actually, I suppose positive punishment and negative reinforcement can be said to be combined in these cases. After applying the positive punishment (shock)...the dog then changes it's behavior to something preferred...and in order to increase the likelihood of that behavior (reinforcement) the shock is removed (negative). But I think at it's core it is positive punishment.
Likewise, with the stick touching the nose...after the positive punishment is applied and the behavior corrected, you want to increase the likelihood of the corrected behavior by removing the stimulus (negative reinforcement). So yes, I suppose your summation was in part correct.
Another example of negative reinforcement would be if you are, say, training a dog to sit by pulling it's leash upwards. You pull the leash upwards until the desired behavior of the dog sitting (reinforcement), and then stop pulling upwards on the leash (negative)...(not that I dissapprove, or approve of said training methods...it was just examples I thought of)
I think I have all this right...but might have screwed up somewhere...it's been a few years since I studied psychology of behavior
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Heather, you know it always was, with all the positives and negatives, paradoxically confusing to me.
In that, I could be "behavior modifying" either "stopping pulling"...or...
"starting to walk with slack in the leash". Either one, arrived at, to avoid positive punishment, as you make the point.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
You are a liar. Everyone, absolutely everyone, knows that the minute momma dog has her pups, their personalities develop. There is a dominant pup, there is a runt, and everyone else in between establishes their position. From the second after birth!
Any home that has two or more dogs in it has this exact same hierarchy established. Period. One is the boss, the rest aren't. They don't fight every day, but there was at least one altercation between your dogs to establish this. Period. The fact that you don't recognize this in our own dogs indicates that you are either lying or do not pay attention to your dog's behaviors as intently as you surmise.
D80