Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

[toyah]

there are NO conclusive results FULL STOP...

I think the point of this thread being stickied was we were told that a respected vet in Scotland had said he suspected a paramyxovirus outbreak based on Windsor and Shug's symptoms.

So I guess the thread is now remaining stickied until viral results are posted on the snakes involved - they will be conclusive as to whether this is actually paramyxovirus or not. And once we have that, presumably we then have your vet's blessing to continue trade in Scotland, since he recommended all trade was stopped until all Windsor's results were back!

 

[diamondlil]

I checked first with Elle that I'd read the situation correctly before wading in, here goes, this is what I wrote to Elle;
ok Elle, would you mind if I post this summary, because this is getting silly? This is what I want to write, but only if you agree;
Elle and Klootie (sorry I don't remember your real name), have both admitted that they have made mistakes.
When their vet told them there was a possibility of a major viral outbreak they wanted to warn people. As at that point it was based on speculation by the vet, they could have waited for results, but then if there had been a viral outbreak any results would have been too late to help stop it spreading.
Both have openly said that they acted on emotions, with hindsight they could have waited, but with extremely sick pets and dire warnings from the vet it must have been the obvious thing to do at that point to warn people.
Almost immediately they were attacked from all angles, and if they reacted to those attacks, then again who wouldn't?
In the middle of medical assessments myself at the moment, I'm getting conflicting diagnosis and printed reports that are different to what I'm being told face-to-face, and I'm not standing there in a life-or-death situation for a pet. I've been basically called a liar by my Occupational health dept for the conflicting reports, which aren't imaginary, they're not under my control, I have no say in what treatment will be decided on, when it will happen, and what the results will be - sound familiar?

 

[klootie]

toyah,,

Shug and elysium did NOT have the viral panels done as they recovered whilst on baytril.... the vet felt testing once they recovered was an unecessary stress.... the only time i considered viral panels was at the suggestion that they MAY not recover on antibiotics OR if one had died then i would have had a full autospy to look for viral panels...

i will NOT be having them tested for any viral issues now .. and i have NOT and will NOT ever be breeding snakes... so as far as im concerned im not sure what viral panel you are talking about regarding my snakes...

isnt this all getting daft now....

if the need for a conclusive result is uppermost in your mind then guess what.,... it is in mine too.... but i have fully accepted this is highly unlikely


theres really nothing more that can be done unless elle and I agree to test every single snake in our homes... for every single thing ever possible they could ever ever ever be likely to have,,,, :shrugs:

 

[klootie]

I checked first with Elle that I'd read the situation correctly before wading in, here goes, this is what I wrote to Elle;
ok Elle, would you mind if I post this summary, because this is getting silly? This is what I want to write, but only if you agree;
Elle and Klootie (sorry I don't remember your real name), have both admitted that they have made mistakes.
When their vet told them there was a possibility of a major viral outbreak they wanted to warn people. As at that point it was based on speculation by the vet, they could have waited for results, but then if there had been a viral outbreak any results would have been too late to help stop it spreading.
Both have openly said that they acted on emotions, with hindsight they could have waited, but with extremely sick pets and dire warnings from the vet it must have been the obvious thing to do at that point to warn people.
Almost immediately they were attacked from all angles, and if they reacted to those attacks, then again who wouldn't?
In the middle of medical assessments myself at the moment, I'm getting conflicting diagnosis and printed reports that are different to what I'm being told face-to-face, and I'm not standing there in a life-or-death situation for a pet. I've been basically called a liar by my Occupational health dept for the conflicting reports, which aren't imaginary, they're not under my control, I have no say in what treatment will be decided on, when it will happen, and what the results will be - sound familiar?

Bravo...

this is exactly what happened to me ( human doctors and specialists) for 22 yrs... made a total mess of my health care... and continually got it wrong and contradicted themselves...

i was misdiagnosed and have had 5 different conflicting diagnosis since i was 13...


this year in february i finally found out i have what they call post-neurological encephalitis..

which in laymans terms is neuron damage... i got it from being in a coma after a severe bout of chicken pox.. thwe virus reached my brain and caused damage.. not severe but enough to make a difference to my health long term and day to day...


but through out my life i have been diagnosed with SO many ilnesses that i DONT have i know how NOT to trust results...

im sorry youre having to go through that personally diamondlil... its infuriating when professionals consistently get it wrong...


both elle and myself were told a myriad of labyrinth type information surrounding the snakes situation from various vets and visits calls and reports...

its highly furstrating and annoying but in life this sometimes happens..

I wish you al the best for 2008...

and thankyou for that summary,,,

 

[toyah]

i will NOT be having them tested for any viral issues now .. and i have NOT and will NOT ever be breeding snakes... so as far as im concerned im not sure what viral panel you are talking about regarding my snakes...

Viral testing was ran on Windsor, and those are the results that we are waiting on, Lynn. I must admit I did assume that the vet would have tested your snakes, since even Windsor's PM said that other snakes should be separately screened, but I think we would just like to see one result from one snake.

As you said, you've no plans on breeding, you've not mentioned buying any new snakes or any desire to sell the ones you own, so a clear viral result is less important to you than it would be to Elle. On a personal note, it's important to me because I've had it said to me several times by people that they're wary of buying things from any Scottish breeders because of this whole thing, and will be until they see results. While I have repeatedly said, I know you posted what you did with the best of intentions, that doesn't change the snowball effect that it has had.

Personally, I don't see the point of you and enigma hashing over the same thing over and over - if you're bored of the argument, then don't rise to it! Easy enough to do, and it would certainly be less stressful for you to just leave it. But someone asked why the thread was stickied, and I posted the reasons I assumed it still was.

 

[klootie]

ok got you now toyah...

the thing is whether it is viral or bacterial..... and both can be JUSt as damaging... IF one of my snakes needed testing.... and say nothing was found... that doesnt actualyl mean nothing is present...

as the herp vet i saw last said... we cant find what we dont yet know about..


so everyone who was through my house at that time ( including yourself when you helped me administer the baytril to shug and elysium... which i am VERY grateful for) could potentially have run the risk of POSSIBLY transferring it if it is something unknown to us in the herp world as yet...

with the severe frustration of INCONCLUSIVE... we will always have anagging doubt... is it air bourne , water bourne.. bacterial or viral.. blah blah etc etc..

without a conclusive result we wont ever know... i find this highly upsetting and worrying but muchlike everyone else i cant MAKE them find something...

there may be nothing to find you see... or there might be...

the REAL issue is.. we may never know

 

[enigma]

LOL....


ok dokay enigma...

:dancer:


just to show how ridiculous this really is then eh??

Journey time from my street to YOUR vet is 53 minutes and 42.5 miles...
and thats only if the roads are not busy... at quiet times of the day

... in BUSY traffic as you have to go through Cumbernauld and the dreaded VERY busy dual carriageway that can increase to 2 hours due to traffic congestion and road works...

So let’s say we have moderate to busy times enigma

That’s 1 hour and 30 minutes to get there... lets say 45 minutes at vets and 1 hour 30 minutes back

So all in then on a moderate to busy traffic day that would be

3 hours 45 minutes


On a very quite day travelling both ways minimum time would be 53 minutes to get there... 45 minutes for full consultation and 53 minutes return journey

Which by my meagre calculations would be approximately 2 and a half hours give or take a minute?


the distance in fact is a LOT longer than u thought I already worked it out before I considered your offer spoke with my parents about whether they would baby-sit for that amount of time possibly 2 or 3 times a week and they were horrified that someone of any sense would even suggest taking my animals or putting my kids in a car unnecessarily for numerous vet visits for god knows how many weeks..

What if I had both my animals admitted to the Dunfermline practice...

I have travelled to Serpents exotics in towhead Dunfermline before and it took us 3 hours to get home due to the traffic jams on the Cumbernauld roads...

Do you seriously think imp idiotic enough to stress the animals out more than needs be after my initial mistake of feeding them both in the same tub...

SO many people... even a woman from England who breeds hoots said it was nonsensical to take my animals out of a vets they were already in and travel back and forth those times and stances when I have other commitments such as children.... one of whom is only 2 years old Lynne..

Both of which are at nursery and school...

Also I asked you to give me a phone call and you didn’t... you exlained you were busy that evening and i said that’s fine...

I never heard from you again once...

So all this crap about me ignoring u is nascence...

Vie stayed away from the forums recently both on ruff and here because I realise whets REALLY important now...

Not trying to distract myself from any issues in life by USING petty arguments about snakes... I USED to do this I admit that... from now on id prefers to spend precious time with family and friends and remember JUST how much more important they are than forums or snakes...

I made ONE mistake Lynne... ONE... i fed my royal python in the same feeding tub and my carpet python... and inadvertantly passed the bug onto the royal... shug already had it before he came to me... by ONE mistake elle made...



Get your facts right about journey times and travelling distances before you use the facts as an argument against me...



So get your facts straight before you call me out... OK



Just to prove my point

This is taken from AA route planner on goggle


0.12 Turn right onto Old Edinburgh Road - B7001 B7001 0.12
0.07 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Old Edinburgh Road - B7001 B7001 0.19
0.31 Warning: Speed Cameras along the B7001 B7001 0.49
0.30 At roundabout take the 1st exit, then merge onto the A725 A725 0.79
1.11 Continue forward, then merge onto the A725 A725 1.90
0.48 Branch right, then merge onto the A8 A8 2.38
4.18 Continue forward onto the M8 M8 6.56
21.25 Leave the M8 at junction 2, then join the M9 motorway (signposted Forth Road Bridge, Stirling)
TRAFFIC BLACKSPOT - Call 401100 from your mobile M9 27.81
1.35 Warning: Speed Cameras along the M9 M9 29.15
1.32 Leave the M9 at junction 1a, then merge onto the A8000 (signposted Forth Road Bridge) A8000 30.47
3.01 Continue forward onto the A90 A90 33.48
0.50 Ferrymuir Sevice Area (Echline Junction) A90 33.98
1.39 Forth Road Bridge (Toll) A90 35.37
2.59 Continue forward onto the M90 M90 37.96
3.18 Leave the M90 at junction 3, then at roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the A907 (signposted Dunfermline) A907 41.14
0.25 Travelodge (Dunfermline) A907 41.39
0.16 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the A907 A907 41.55
0.16 At roundabout take the 3rd exit onto the A907 A907 41.72
0.25 At Lynebank Roundabout take the 1st exit onto the A907 A907 41.97
0.48 Arrive at KY11 4LA,Dunfermline
Section time 0:53, Total time 0:53 minutes

and one last word from me. you are losing it mate, and elle, i was told i had met you, but i cant remember you at all. now please make that the last you post to me. thanks.

 

[Jrgh17]

and one last word from me. you are losing it mate, and elle, i was told i had met you, but i cant remember you at all. now please make that the last you post to me. thanks.

I sense a bit of a need to say the last word in any conversation. :shrugs:

You can't tell someone that they are "losing it" and then respectfully ask them NOT to comment on your accusation or speak to you again. If you don't want any contact with someone, the ball is in your court - it's not THEIR responsibility.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I just love irony...

 

[enigma]

I sense a bit of a need to say the last word in any conversation. :shrugs:

You can't tell someone that they are "losing it" and then respectfully ask them NOT to comment on your accusation or speak to you again. If you don't want any contact with someone, the ball is in your court - it's not THEIR responsibility.

last post. i said she is losing it, because she knows that is the very long way from hers to my vets. there is a much much shorter way. but you know, i have seen how they twist things and i made that offer in good faith. i would have picked her up and dropped her. probably got my mother to watch her kids. she couldnt now as she is in a home, but she would have then. i have a freind not far from them, and it takes me twenty minutes to get to her place. but no matter, it was all twisted to make me out a bully and a liar and im not, i happen to like helping folk, it gives me something to do. there is a far far shorter way to get from hers to my vets and she knows it. anyway, thats last i have to say.

 

[Jynx]

I totally missed this post...

My heart goes out to you Elle. The story seems all to familiar, and as I type this I too am adding to the puddle of tears that has been shed for your dear friend.

While he was a totally different animal, I held my best friends head in my lap while my loving vet ended his life. Sadar was my horse, but more he was my best friend of about 20 years. He suffered for about 32 hours with a strangulated intestine. He wasn't a surgical candidate, and basically there was nothing we could do. When the injection hit, he looked at me and I saw every ounce of pain, every bit of suffering... gone. It almost wasn't noticeable. He looked at me, peaceful.. and died.

There is never any easy way to grieve. Friends can all say how sad they are, and try to make you feel like you don't have to go through it alone, but you are going at this alone in a way. You are the only one who understands it right now Elle. No one else has a Windsor, just like no one else had a Sadar.

I'll bet that he looked at you the same way, but you, being the loving mom that you were, just couldn't stand to see him in the pain he was in when that needle pierced his skin. You were there for him when even the vet wanted to give up. You've been there for him since day one Elle, and he knows you would always be there for him.

Well now, he's there with you. You just can't see it.

I wish you the best of luck in this hard time my friend. Stay strong in knowing that you nurtured him the best you could, and made his final time worth living.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Thank you dearly Catherine. The heartache of losing a beloved friend is unspeakable. I chose to euthanise him based on the advice given, and I chose to be part of the euthanasia... I never ever wanted to give up on him, but I couldn't wipe the crusted blood away from his mouth any longer, and I couldn't watch all the hard work I put into making him a fat happy royal go to nothing as he refused to eat again and wasted away.

This is my second euthanasia of a snake this year. The first was poor Dahlia - an 11 gram 06 female Serpenco lavender motley. When it got the point where I had to put food in one end, and help it out the other end (she was becoming impacted with the smallest amount of food) there was just no hope. This went on for 2 out of 5 months of ownership before I had to say enough was enough...

It just never gets easier... and I know some say you cannot get so attached to snakes, but I do... and in all honesty I may not be able to keep another royal python again. I have been offered so many "replacements" for free and have simply been unable to accept.

An experience like this always teaches you valuable lessons... I have learnt so many and my beloved snakes are far more precious to me than they ever were before. I am so grateful to know they are healthy and are at no risk of any sort of infection passed on from Windsor.

 

[Jrgh17]

not once did i call you a liar. if i remember correctly, i just totally cut all communications cause i couldnt believe that, once again, i had got someone so wrong. but we dont have to work with each other, and we dont rely on each other for a loaf of bread. lets keep it that way. as far as am concerned you two dont exist, please see me in the same way. as far as you are concerned, i aint on the planet.

and one last word from me. you are losing it mate, and elle, i was told i had met you, but i cant remember you at all. now please make that the last you post to me. thanks.

last post. i said she is losing it, because she knows that is the very long way from hers to my vets. there is a much much shorter way. but you know, i have seen how they twist things and i made that offer in good faith. i would have picked her up and dropped her. probably got my mother to watch her kids. she couldnt now as she is in a home, but she would have then. i have a freind not far from them, and it takes me twenty minutes to get to her place. but no matter, it was all twisted to make me out a bully and a liar and im not, i happen to like helping folk, it gives me something to do. there is a far far shorter way to get from hers to my vets and she knows it. anyway, thats last i have to say.

I'm sure this won't be the last I have to say.

 

[Reptile freak]

So much for christmas, being with family and friends... forgiving each other and moving on...
I think this thread should be locked now so everyone can move on with their lives. If no one wants to buy snakes from Tula Montage in the future because of this thread then thats their problem and she should deal with it when it happens. I think this thread has become real silly and has brought the childishness out of everyone for no reason. Just stop the crap and grow up now... its the new year, leave the past behind...

 

[Tula_Montage]

That would indeed be the easy option...

 

[Roy Munson]

I've stated it multiple times in this thread already, but I'll go over it once again. The mods have been advised not to lock threads unless there is a very good reason. I don't think "the topic's played out" qualifies as a good reason anymore.

But there's always the "passive lock" feature. That's where those who think the thread should be locked stop posting in it, so it isn't bumped, and it disappears...

Unless a member has a really good reason to do so, please don't make further posts in this thread. Poo-slinging can be done on RFUK for those already engaged over there.

 

[Duff]

But there's always the "passive lock" feature. That's where those who think the thread should be locked stop posting in it, so it isn't bumped, and it disappears...

It's a sticky, so it can't disappear. Would be nice to see it go away already, though, so can it be unstuck now?

 

[klootie]

last post. i said she is losing it, because she knows that is the very long way from hers to my vets. there is a much much shorter way. but you know, i have seen how they twist things and i made that offer in good faith. i would have picked her up and dropped her. probably got my mother to watch her kids. she couldnt now as she is in a home, but she would have then. i have a freind not far from them, and it takes me twenty minutes to get to her place. but no matter, it was all twisted to make me out a bully and a liar and im not, i happen to like helping folk, it gives me something to do. there is a far far shorter way to get from hers to my vets and she knows it. anyway, thats last i have to say.

A shorter way....

really... and i dont know it... i dont drive and i have only ever been to ryans shop in townhead and it takes 50 minutes minimum to get there...

my kids attend nursery and school so i would NOT have kept them off school and nursery to go to a vets that distance away... surely you can see how silly that idea was.. on a continual basis week after week...



and you think id have left my kids with someone i dont know ( one is 2 years old... what would that have said about me if i had been required tro attend the vets 3 times in one week like i did with my own.. leaving my kids for an indefinate time with someone they dont know... snakes before them.. SERIOUSLY... thats nuts..). my kids come before my animals every single time...

You didnt bully me lynn.... you tired your very best to distract yourself with nonsense arguing.. much like i did... for whatever your personal reasons are... we ALL do it... some recognise it some dont...you have 30 years on me and I was brought up to respect my elders... I respect you as a lady who has gone through a great deal and is trying her best to deal with it... however not once have you stepped back through any of this and thought perhaps what you added or contributed was less than helpful and further caused arguements...

noone is ever totally right or wrong... and KARMA deals us blows in life....

I know its easy for me to say sorry if i was petty.. sorry if i hurt you or anyone else and sorry for posting emotionally...

thats easy for me because i know plainly im not perfect nor do i need to try and be right ...

im just me...

i never lied lynn... not once...

logistically your suggestions were not in the best interests of myself or my family or animals... instead of you saying... ok... you actually took personal offence and told me if i DID NOT take my animals to YOUR vet i was hiding something...

why cant u simply see i did not feel it was going to work relying on you to take me whenver i needed to up and down to a vet nearly an hours drive away,.

i asked my mate Jordan (who is a police officer) if theres a quicker way from mine to the vet you wanted me to visit..

he said the quickest he could do it.. IF roads were deserted is 45 minutes...

so by time we'd dropped kids at his babysitter you mentioned AND been sen by the vet for a ful herp appointment ( possibly 1 hour)

we would still have been looking at 3 hours out the day minimum... now on top of that 3 times a week or EVERY time i eneded to go back as an emrgency which appened often during those 4 to 5 weeks the animals were ill would have been a complete burden on you.. the babysitter... me and my children...


it seems ridiculous a lady of your maturity and ability cannot see my refusal of your offer was NOT a personal slight... but simply me declining an offer if felt was not appropriate,.,

I truly hope you find peace in 2008 lynn... there are no hard feelings my side towards anyone at all...

this whole thing was a big mess... and the contributors... myself included.. elle and EVERYONE else that ever posted a less than helpful post or a post in nasty or arguementative way was wrong.... i was wrong... but so were plenty of others...

its ok to be wrong... its NOT ok to ignore the fact and refuse to learn from it..

refusal to learn means KARMA is likely to deal us what we deserve,....

 

[enigma]

oh give it a rest, and if you are ten years old am a monkeys uncle. i have lived here all my life, i know the routes. anyway its all over and done with, so why worry what anyone thinks. you get on wi your life and am getting on with mine, but rest assured i will never offer anyone help again because of you. any more to say pm it or dont bother.

 

[Wullie]

I just love irony...

................like:...... everyone, there is a highly contagous disease rife in Scotland............. oops sorry it was pnuemonia