Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

[Tula_Montage]

funny Den, i was about to raise that one too..

it is, and has been for some years, compulsary to have hand sanitizer on tables at all UK shows, not just IHS.

the UK is not as slack in its hygiene precautions at exotics shows as Elle would suggest!

Its unfortunate that many people's personal hygiene precautions are not as guarded.. i am probably not the only one who has handled others snakes, then handled my own, without always sanitising inbetween.

i do however, take the precaution, of stripping and changing when i come home from shows, before i go back into my reptile room, but thats more to prevent mites..

anyway..i have a friend, also in scotland, who had 3 snakes with long term RI's, all not responding to multiple types of antibiotic. she took the decision to have the worst PTS to have full tests ran. the results have come back as negative for viral problems, what they do have is chronic active hetrophylliac tracheo bronchitis. (scuse spelling, she is telling me this over the phone as she has no www connection at the moment) this has been caused by micro plasma bacteria, which are unaffected by antibiotics.. so the 7 weeks on antibiotics they had would not have touched them... ironically, the one she did not use in this treatment program, baytril, would have worked on them! Fortum, Amikacin and Penicillian were the ones she used.

in order to actually find the micro plasma bacteria, they did full bacterial cultures taken from tissue samples from the lungs, heart and brain. there was no damage in the heart and brain, but the one from the lung fluid and tissue shows the micro bacteria.. these bacteria were not able to be seen on the samples from the live animals, they can only be seen on biopsy.

the tests were carried out by two exotics specialists at the department of clinical studies, Royal School of Veterinary Studies, University of Edinburgh.. in the exotics department, and set my mate back some £800+

she does now however have a fully clean bill of health for all her remaining snakes.

so, the reason for this post...

just to say that, as lyn said, until the tests come back one way or the other, and although its good of lynn and elle to raise their concerns.. it is as yet inconclusive as to what the real cause of death was.

paramyxovirus, there are 2 types attack reptiles, type 1 and type 7. and this is what the test for. however, on initial post mortum, paramyoxovirus presents with pus in the lungs and severe damage to the lungs and bronchial tubes. it also presents tissue damage in both the brain and heart. In the case of Windsor, one would have expected to see the physical presentation of symptons on initial incision into the lungs/heart or brain.

Whilst the animal was still alive, a royal who had param for 6+ weeks, would also be highly likely to show fitting and seizures, again due to the ongoing brain damage.

the tests being done should also rule out IBD one way or the other.. the post mortum SHOULD show, or not show, the presence of the inclusion bodies..

I'm being told, if i want to learn the more techy stuff on it, that the exotics guys at edinburgh will be happy to talk me right though it.. as my friend says, they have told her the laymans version, if i want i can get the full spec version.. although it may require some dusting off of the 'ole grey matter!

*phew* techy head back off for lunch!

hope that gives some more info to people anyway

Nerys

Thanks for that input Nerys.

I know exactly who it is your talking about, and Lynn has been speaking to her today.

It looks like Windsor is "too dead" to test for chronic active hetrophylliac tracheo bronchitis - however Lynn is considering putting one of her own snakes down showing symptions to get to the bottom of this. Thats a heartbreaking and totally brave thing to do. If it is that same condition, its still highly contagious and both snakes have been in contact with hundreds of other specimens. Windsor was treated with baytril for 2 weeks and did not improve so perhaps baytril is not the answer?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Since hand sanitizers have been brought up in this thread, I would like to direct everyone to a thread on Fauna where the disinfecting (or lack their of) of hand sanitizers was discussed...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104021

While common hand sanitizers can help with basic germ and bacteria transmission, they're pretty much useless against serious infection transmission.



Elle, I'm sorry to hear this happened to you...

 

[nerys]

one thing i would like the readers of this thread to do, is to read the posts on the forum this is being discussed on..

the liklihood of it being Param is low tbh. and there is a great risk, from this thread, that breeders in scotland will be tarred with the wrong brush entirely..

speaking to various parties involved with this, i also am aware that the whole story is not being fully given..

and yes, sorry elle, you may choose to take that the wrong way. but thats life i guess

anyway, this is the post

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/68042-paramyxovirus-outbreak.html

the thread is 23 pages long so far, but if you do not have time to read it all, i suggest going in from about page 19.

i personally believe windsor had an RI caused by a strain of Mycoplasma bacteria... not a virus..

Nerys

 

[tricksterpup]

the liklihood of it being Param is low tbh. and there is a great risk, from this thread, that breeders in scotland will be tarred with the wrong brush entirely..

Nerys

Nerys,
I do not think anyone here is about to Tar and feather the Scottish breeders at all. I think Elle is just pointing to a concern here. If its nothing.. hey its nothing but if it is something. Then I think everyone should stand up and notice.

Its something to be concern if its contagious. There is a ferret disease called Aleutian Disease. Its a parvo virus that basically lingers in an area for about 2 years. If I went to a pet store and touched a ferret and then went home and touched mine or washed my hands but still touched the ferret with my clothes mine can still get this disease.

I just do not want to see something like this spread in the snake community. This disease in Ferrets has wiped out ferret and mink breeding facilities.
Can you imagine if something like this hit the herp community?? Imagine someone going to show who owns an animal infected. Yes they may wash their hands but their cloths my still have the contagion. Then they go to this how and holds Animals from breeder X. Well that just infected his animal and possibly his collection, especially if he doesn't wash his hands and holds his other animals.

I think to many people are taking this possibility to lightly. I would be in Elle's and her friends shoes. I would be a little paranoid and would try to get to the bottom of this. I would rather prove this wrong than letting it go and it being something.

 

[diamondlil]

Very interesting reading Nerys, thanks for the link.
I too questioned the 'turning viral' statement, but thought that was probably a mistake due to Elle being upset. Viral illness will not respond to antibiotics, but secondary bacterial infections will, as I''m sure you know. I can't pretend to have followed all the thread properly, because there are inconsistencies and some illogical statements that didn't make sense. Any animal being 'too dead' to run tests on when the necessary samples would hopefully been taken and preserved at the time of euthanasia does not follow either. Again I personally felt this and the other conflicting statements were most probably due to Elle being so upset over this awful experience. I'm not sure I'd be too coherent if it was me.
I hope the full results will be made public as soon as possible. Plain factual information rather than speculation would be the most useful way forward now, IMO

 

[klootie]

sorry to be posting something so long winded when i have only been on this forum a short while...


.. as far as im concerned right now.. after the phonecalls and emails I have had today ( ONLY from 2 people I may add).. im not going back on RFUK ( the Uk forum) it is a fantastic forum but I do not want to pick up abusive pms anymore... there have been lots of lovely messages from large breeders and keepers alike. however the select few have made me realise its just not worth it. full stop... ive had more support for what i decided to say in the rfuk thread... than not.. but still... I am truly sorry this happened.. ...

noone was ever going to agree... in life thats virtually impossible

its like those films you see about viruses or infections.... bacterial or otherwise ....

noone knows whether to go on red alert or not.... youre damned if you do.... damned if you dont....


well i went on red alert.... so there we go... hang me...

if people genuinely think it is only elle and i that have been dicussing things they are sadly wrong.. people are bitching and calling others out left right and centre... i wish i could legally post names conversations, and emails but i cant.. im fed up with watching people being two faced...

people may have swapped snakes from collections in the past where there have been infections.. no that is not slander ... FULL STOP... im not going to sit here and pretend away things i saw visually or heard however perhaps im crazy eh?? Did I imagine full conversations and people phoning me , calling others out and bitching and passing on negative info.... then asking me to SAY NOTHING... that pressure is now too much... i cant keep anymore information quiet nor can I post it.. so im in a no win situation now... peopel ... im not going to lie so therefore not posting is the only way i can now deal with this situation without having to cover things up others have said/ emailed/ msn/ spoke to me directly on the phone about......



if pushed legally to name where information came from regarding the paramyxovirus worry and any other commentsi will....i would gladly give it but since the current climate has become almost harrasing and very nasty.. im not willing to continue with it full stop... a barrage of law suits over a forum thread is not really my idea of fun....


It may be worth mentioning that if i had any snakes in my collection with infectious RIs i would contact EVRYONE i had sent snakes to or had collected form me.. i would not choose to contact ONLY the ones i THOUGHT might be affected... i have run a massive risk by posting on RFUK... i have totally damaged my reputation and i knew i would before i posted.. i was very aware... and stil decided to go ahead with it..

but quite frankly without knowing where all the snakes that had been in and out my home had went ( which was used frequently as a collection point for reptile courriers between Scotland and England) I could see no other way of warning people properly.. i certainly would not have been able to get a hold of every individual considering many of these snakes and sales were not organised by me... but my house was used at times for hours or occasionally for 1 or 2 days to house snakes that were not mine and were being delivered or collected by buyers....

nothing in life is 100%.... nothing.... so i would cover my backside and tell every single person anything i knew... even if it seemed too early to some...... even if it meant i was never trusted to breed or sell snakes again... whether i had an emotional investment in my animals or a much more materialistic monetary investment.


I know for a fact information is not always revealed appen until people are pushed into a corner and have no choice but to seem as though they are clearing up their own mess....

Peopel can become spin doctors overnight,.,

I dont have that ability... i only have the ability to go with what i THINK is right from my heart

that may all sound a bit slushy and pathetic but I genuinely care about the anmals i have and other peoples animals...

 

[nerys]

tricksterpup - unfortunately this is not the case.. if you have a chance, do read the thread i am talking about.

this is a post made by a user who owns a retail store in Wales:


I have been told by 3 people that the IHS show has been cancelled, and by 2 further people that no shows will take place in the UK for the next 12 months!

Another person told me it was useless to go to Hamm now as no snakes would be allowed to enter or leave the country because of the "epidemic", and I have had to counter dozens of other queries regarding it.. even though I am no where near Scotland and have no snakes that have come from there, nor anything exhibiting any symptoms or that has exhibited the correct symptoms in my lifetime.

I am sorry but rumours and hearsay is panicing some people to a critical point and incorrect information is spreading like wildfire.

I have nothing much to add that will help really, other than I would urge people again, to sit tight and not panic until some results are actually known. Quarantine all new snakes firmly (as you should already be doing) and if you know someone who is worried about this, please do not gossip or spread rumours. It's fine to discuss facts but perhaps if we stuck to facts then it wouldn't be getting so out of hand.

I am beginning to wonder as to whether the rumours and damage to some people and areas of the UK will be far more devestating once the result is finally out - than the actual disease itself! At least that can be contained... apparently peoples imaginations can't!

and this another post from the girl with the Mycoplasma diagnosis

A few things that i noticed from the thread on the american site and had to say something about...

"Heres what the vet says... you will need a VERY good vet and lots of money and even then theres not much hope"

So is the vet saying that hes not a good vet?



"The infection has most probably turned viral"

As far as im aware infections are either viral or bacterial and cant turn into the other.


"I'm paying extra for a necropsy as I need to know what the virus is and where it came from."

YOU HAVE NO RESULTS THAT SAY THIS IS A VIRUS.

"He's been in a completely different house from the rest of my boids and a completely different room from the colubrids at my house.It's times like this when you realise how important quarantine is and I'm so glad he has not had the oppertunity to come into contact with the rest of my snakes."​

See the quote below

"Thankfully hes only been in contact with 8 other snakes residing at my house (although hes been in quarantine)"

See the quote above this one

"Oh theres no way I'm bringing anymore snakes into my collection for a long time - Probably not until next year. I have to be sure what this virus is and make sure it is not already present in any of my other snakes or snakes that Windsor has been in contact with. Thats literally hundreds of specimens from my collection and of course from the previous owner."

YOU HAVE NO RESULTS TO SAY THIS IS A VIRUS

"Theres also serious concerns that this is the first public reports of an outbreak of PARAMYXOVIRUS."

Paramyxovirus has been in the UK for approximately 10 years, if the results do come back as positive its far from the first case.


"it originated from an American breeder who found the virus in his collected after a breeder in Scotland has a batch of snakes imported from him. Co-incidently a known Scottish breeder recently sold up due to his snakes dropping dead for no reason."

Are you blaming one Scottish breeder or two? I cant figure it out.


"we have been advised by the vets to cease all trade in Scotland and warm others of it so this virus does not turn into an epidemic!"

This is an entirely false statement. You know perfectly well your vet said "your collection" not "Scotland"!! and again you have NO results from which to state this is a virus.

"If ther correct precautions are not taken it could turn into an epidemic."​

Again - NO RESULTS

"Phoned the vet to ask him to test for Paramyxovirus and he already said hes done it as it was a corncern. The carpet python is going to be checked for reflexes later today as paramyxovirus displays some IBM symptoms as well as respiratory infection."

Paramyxovirus is one test of many that any herp vet will do with more than one animal down with an RI in a collection


"Lynn phoned the vet today and he told the labs down south to test for paramyxovirus after he opened him up as there were signs of it."

You stated there were signs of lung damage which there can be many reasons for, an RI left untreated for weeks will cause damage to the lungs


"It looks like Windsor is "too dead" to test for chronic active hetrophylliac tracheo bronchitis"

If you have tested for Paramyxovirus during post mortum your vet will have tissue samples in storage which he can use to test for bacteria. If it turns out he hasn't done bacterial testing from post mortum any way hes not much of a vet.



I truely am not having a go with this post but some of the statements quoted above have to be pulled up and disagreed with for the sake of anyone who has animals from you and their sanity, im afraid.

so i am sorry trickster pup, but you are not IN the uk, and you are not seeing how this rumour is flying round the UK at the moment.

we do not know that windsor had param, and in reality it is highly unlikely that he has it...

people in the uk need to start practicing SAFE q'tine procedures, and stop buying snakes only to sell them on again with months..

and yes, as a keeper of both skunks and ferrets, i know all about Aleutian Disease

Param has been known in the UK for at least the last 10 years, its not new to us any more than it is to the USA..

and yes of COURSE we need to find out what it is, only a real twit would think otherwise.. what we do NOT need to do, is scare half the UK to death before we know what the problem is.

an accurate report of what the vet has been saying would be good too..

so.. sorry, of course i feel for elle having lost windsor.. but this is being blown out of all proportion over here.

as said, if you are interested enough to read and post here, then please, do make the effort to read the thread on the uk forum. i am not touting for business for the forum, its not my forum and we have enough as it is!!

N

 

[klootie]

IM realy sorry i cant give anyone any information about who said what.... who emailed me who msn me or called me for fear now of legal issues..

so please dont PM me...



i really do appologise but i simply cant...

as i said i wil no longer be going on RFUK..

but heres hoping the snakes will be ok ....

 

[nerys]

tbh lyn, you should have the courage to follow this through..

if you have msn and email convos, you have proof of what was said.. so it will not come back on you, if a 3rd party has said something..

phone calls are different unless you taped them, but as far as msn and email go, then if its something that was said to you in text, then why should it come back on you?

you must expect that if you are going to start something like this, the other reptile keepers it knocks onto, are going to want answers, and tbh right now people are just going to say (as they have to me already)

"oh thats handy, now the brown stuff has hit the fan, she is backing out of it"

N

 

[klootie]

one thing i would like the readers of this thread to do, is to read the posts on the forum this is being discussed on..

the liklihood of it being Param is low tbh. and there is a great risk, from this thread, that breeders in scotland will be tarred with the wrong brush entirely..

speaking to various parties involved with this, i also am aware that the whole story is not being fully given..

and yes, sorry elle, you may choose to take that the wrong way. but thats life i guess

anyway, this is the post

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/snakes/68042-paramyxovirus-outbreak.html

the thread is 23 pages long so far, but if you do not have time to read it all, i suggest going in from about page 19.

i personally believe windsor had an RI caused by a strain of Mycoplasma bacteria... not a virus..

Nerys

where you have stated you personally believe windsor had a strain of mycoplasma bacteria.. i feel that is also what i did.. state what i perosnally believed... MY opinion.. i aslo said what the vets mentioned to us.. if what they mentioned they wish they had not what can i say...

we were together when we were told of a virul risk... noone is making anythign up...

as i said after the vets said virul risk... i was told 24 hours later of paromyxovirus possibility.. the person who gave this information wil not allow me to give names..

what now can i do...


this is very upsetting... this thread is about windsor dying and a possible worry of bacterial or virul infection that could be carried to other snakes...

its sad its turned into this...

 

[klootie]

tbh lyn, you should have the courage to follow this through..

if you have msn and email convos, you have proof of what was said.. so it will not come back on you, if a 3rd party has said something..

phone calls are different unless you taped them, but as far as msn and email go, then if its something that was said to you in text, then why should it come back on you?

you must expect that if you are going to start something like this, the other reptile keepers it knocks onto, are going to want answers, and tbh right now people are just going to say (as they have to me already)

"oh thats handy, now the brown stuff has hit the fan, she is backing out of it"

N

I am backing out now simply because.......

I have not done a single thing since friday but deal with this.. lack of sleep and 2 kids... if anyone has other requirements of me then thats a pity now... if i had not received nasty pms and emails then this would stil be dealable with... ive cancelled important appointments and had my kids baby sat to deal with emails and phonecalls which until today I was very happy to do...

it is entirely up to me when i feel enough is enough..

and trust me it is enough now

So you can say what you want really... I need a break

 

[nerys]

the thing is lyn, any vet will tell you there is a risk from virus's and any vet who knows about reptile virus's will mention param and ibd as standard.

you take in a snake with an RI.. the vet says its going to be tested, and the tests include one for a virus..

and the vet tells you to stop trading from your collections, which is only correct, as any one with sick animals should not sell stock..

but suddenly we get the standard vet speak.. which would be along the lines of

we'll run a number of tests, including ones for a virus, and don't sell any animals from your collection until we know the results

and suddenly we are in the situation we are now in! which is totally blown out of all proportion!

N

 

[klootie]

the thing is lyn, any vet will tell you there is a risk from virus's and any vet who knows about reptile virus's will mention param and ibd as standard.

you take in a snake with an RI.. the vet says its going to be tested, and the tests include one for a virus..

and the vet tells you to stop trading from your collections, which is only correct, as any one with sick animals should not sell stock..

but suddenly we get the standard vet speak.. which would be along the lines of

we'll run a number of tests, including ones for a virus, and don't sell any animals from your collection until we know the results

and suddenly we are in the situation we are now in! which is totally blown out of all proportion!

N

it wasnt only what the vet said friday nerys.. it was information i received on the saturday actually.. and more after that also...

but really pls i dont mean to be rude... i genuinely need a break...

 

[nerys]

it wasnt only what the vet said friday nerys.. it was information i received on the saturday actually.. and more after that also...

but really pls i dont mean to be rude... i genuinely need a break...

if you really want to get to the bottom of this, then you really need to follow it through and not drop out now tho...

the fact your house was used as a half way house for animals being moved from scotland to england has not helped at all though..

N

 

[diamondlil]

How and why were animals being traded through someone's house without strict quarantine and hygiene procedures? :shrugs:

 

[klootie]

if you really want to get to the bottom of this, then you really need to follow it through and not drop out now tho...

the fact your house was used as a half way house for animals being moved from scotland to england has not helped at all though..

N

so whos fault is that... MINE.. for saying i would help people out ...

i was doing people favours... breeders AND buyers... so did they take advantage of the fact i am close friends with a well known animal courrier.. apparently so,.,

I have obviously been taken advantage of then... trust me it wil never happen again... i allowed it to happen.. i was perhaps too accomodating of the peopel asking me these favours... it wont happen ever again...

as for getting to the bottom of it.. i will..
as for continuing posting publically when i have threats and nasty emails I can decide for myself what i wish to do ,,,,,

 

[klootie]

How and why were animals being traded through someone's house without strict quarantine and hygiene procedures? :shrugs:

they werent....

no trade went on.. the animals were bought online or through forums... and pick uop and delivery was then arranged.... animals were dropped at my house and collected by an animal courrier or at times the buyers of the animals...

animals were not removed from their boxes... IF they were sent in boxes and did not need feacal waste removed etc...

i never fed any animals for others... i never handled animals unless i had to move them due to faecal waste and cleaning.. and they were kept in my bedroom away from my animals

HOWEVER... during the summer a breeder sent animals in bags,, NOT boxes.. I had to take 6 snakes from seperate bags find tubs.. disinfect tubs.. clean them.. find water bowls and substrate.....

because a BREEDER had NOT sent them in anything but cloth bags,... these animals were NOT for me .... they were for a person who wanted to use my house as a pick up and drop off... I was upset the animals had to be handled and moved into boxes.. i actually had to buy 2 50 litre RUB for them even though they were only here overnight.... as i only had 4 boxes available....

did i complain at the breeder NO ...did i make it public NO.... i just did what was right for the animals basically...



i wil never ever allow my home to be used as a drop off or pick up again .. I have learned a very upsetting lesson regarding this...

 

[nerys]

i believe lyn, who is in glasgow, scotland, was being used as a pick up and collection point for a uk reptile delivery company called Reptile Taxi.

in all honesty diamond.. very very very VERY few people i have seen over here practice true Q'tine..

there is a huge market in snakes being bought and sold on again in under a year, in some cases literally only being kept for months before they are sold on..

then also, people who have got into herps hard very quickly... its not unusual to see a new keeper go from 1 snake to 30 within the first 6 months.. unless they have a 30 room house, how do the q'tine them? in most cases they don't..

i myself fell foul of doing it some years back now, when i took a gtp into my collection, put it in my rep room, and 3 weeks later everything was crawling in mites... you live and learn.

i also do animal couriering as a side line. i too will have to think very carefully about how i have the animals loaded in the vehicle, and how i myself deal with them.

q'tine.. TRUE q'tine.. would not just be "in a different room" just keeping the snake in a different room is not q'tine. for people with long hair for instance.. you need to wash it, or have it covered, between specimens..

how many of us, have one cleaning sponge per water bowl? i don't..,. i would need 80+ sponges all named.. yet strictly we should not use a sponge on one snake bowl, and then on the one next door..

there are moves afoot at the moment, to introduce STRICT q'tine into the UK.

this will mean that ANYTHING coming in, bird, mammal, snake, whatever will be subject to a minimum q'tine of 6 months. they are also planning to make importing ONLY legal via heathrow.. no more cross channel trips..

i need not point out that if this does happen, it will effectively halt all animal movement into the UK.. how many buyers could afford to pay 6 months q'tine charges? how many US exporters would that knock onto?

there are real issues going on in the UK at the moment, regarding the legality of keeping "exotics" and the way they are brought in, moved, sold and kept.

free keeping in the UK is very much under fire. we really need to sort out issues like this from within the keeping community, without having the anti keeping community dicate the laws to us.

N

 

[nerys]

they werent....

no trade went on.. the animals were bought online or through forums... and pick uop and delivery was then arranged.... animals were dropped at my house and collected by an animal courrier or at times the buyers of the animals...

animals were not removed from their boxes... IF they were sent in boxes and did not need feacal waste removed etc...

i never fed any animals for others... i never handled animals unless i had to move them due to faecal waste and cleaning.. and they were kept in my bedroom away from my animals

HOWEVER... during the summer a breeder sent animals in bags,, NOT boxes.. I had to take 6 snakes from seperate bags find tubs.. disinfect tubs.. clean them.. find water bowls and substrate.....

because a BREEDER had NOT sent them in anything but cloth bags,... these animals were NOT for me .... they were for a person who wanted to use my house as a pick up and drop off... I was upset the animals had to be handled and moved into boxes.. i actually had to buy 2 50 litre RUB for them even though they were only here overnight.... as i only had 4 boxes available....

did i complain at the breeder NO ...did i make it public NO.... i just did what was right for the animals basically...



i wil never ever allow my home to be used as a drop off or pick up again .. I have learned a very upsetting lesson regarding this...

thing is lyn.. that if the animals had something contagious.. you picking up the box, walking it into your house and into your room.. putting it down again.. and then walking away.. could have been enough to pass it on.

if something is passed on by contact, how do you know an ill snake had not been sat on the lid of the box you took in? you don't. you touch the box, then maybe on the way to the bathroom to wash, you touch your jeans..

say your hair brushed the boxes as you carried them up.. did you wash your hair between each box?

as trickster pup said about aleutian disease.. it takes barely any contact at all for some to be passed on.

N

 

[klootie]

thing is lyn.. that if the animals had something contagious.. you picking up the box, walking it into your house and into your room.. putting it down again.. and then walking away.. could have been enough to pass it on.

if something is passed on by contact, how do you know an ill snake had not been sat on the lid of the box you took in? you don't. you touch the box, then maybe on the way to the bathroom to wash, you touch your jeans..

say your hair brushed the boxes as you carried them up.. did you wash your hair between each box?

as trickster pup said about aleutian disease.. it takes barely any contact at all for some to be passed on.

N

I KNOW.... thats the weird thing nerys.. i actually said almost identically what you did...

this is what i said in the RFUK thread.,.. yes?? if you go and re-read it i stated simply what youre now saying in this thread... way back near the start...

I can trace snakes between houses and keepers as to who they may have been in contact with.. MAY being the operative word...

Meetings where snakes were passed aorund and hand wash NOT always used.. meetings where snakes were handled and quarentine proceedures etc not followed.. i didnt know at the time what proper quaretine preocedures were exactly,, my fault most certainly as i have only been keeping a year.. BUT surely these others knew.. or at least some of them...



ive been at peoples houses and sheds who have happily let everyone there handle various snakes that have only been with the, a short while.. im not saying thats a terrible thing to do.. its JUST a stupid thing and careless and we dont always think.... but trust me i wil overthink every single thing from now on...

so whos to blame... ALL OF US.... not everyones collection wil suffer of course... but that doesnt mean they we are all practicing perfect hygiene and quarentine...

if people start pretending they were and they think they can prove that by saying but none of my snakes are ill...then frankly i give up.. justy because snakes are not ill does not mean a person practices perfect hygiene and quarentine EVERY TIME...


even a fabulous keeper and breeder this year was caught out with the infection of mycroplasma in her collection.. and she is scrupulous so i have been told.. and fully believe... so if people as careful and experienced as her can be caught out then its easy to see why newer keepers can...


im sick of people looking outwards just now... we need to look inwards.. that was what the RFUK thread was about... i said IF i have inadvenrtantly passed something on i will take responisibility... others did not take this view.. they protected themselves.... . when actually i saw with my own eyes times WE ( not just I) did not practice perfect hygiene and we could have passed things beteen us.. they did not impress upon me to clean hands every time.. they did not clean their own hands when going from snake to snake.. i thought this initially was the norm... i was SO wrong.... just because a WC animal or a CF animal SEEMS ok doesnt mean its a good idea to take it round meetings and houses... JUST because YOU THINK everythings fine..

if all this did was give the Uk one big wake up call ..then thats fine...




Windsor elles snake got sick and was euthanised... the vet SAID he FELT it had to have had the infection longer than elle had had it back from its previous owner.. then my python got sisk after being near windsor... my python had been in a n outdoor heated unit before he went to elles with a guy i know had also been at all the snake meetings and breeders houses too.... who the heck knows how it started..... wil we ever know.. we wil know the cause but maybe not the place it began... and saying al that it COULD be co-incidental and all these animals have RIs that are totally unrelated .... ...

IF another snake that had indeed been in contact or near someone or a persons hair or clothes or whatever... then that makes me think.. its so easy to spread then isnt it????? as I have seen many occasions in hindsight this could have been the case... anyone at any stage of handling if they hadnt changed clothes.. washed hair etc could have passed it from snake to snake.... so its noones fault,..... its everyones... if you dont protect your own collection and keep it safe thats the owners and breeders repsonsibility too.. if we take animals to meetings and other rep keeprs are there... then it might be passed that way...

Im admitting my faults... saying whati have doen wrong in orer to LEARN not to blame.... how i am viewed for this is irrelevant as if it means MUCH better rep keeping on my part then that can only be positive...

the negatives in this sitation to me do NOT outweight what positives there are....

Monetarily i can see there may have been losses in collections being sold at the moment.. but how many more people are now giving themselves a kick up the backside about thier hygiene and quarentine practices...





BUT SO many breeders right now are saying YES we can categorically say weve never handled snakes that way...... yet ive SEEN it with my own eyes.. im not hiding i have done this too.. i am regretting being so stupid and feel terrible.. but im being brutally honest..... ...unlike so many



people saying things like..

"OH i dont need to quarentine I KNOW the snake came from a reputable source".. reputablwe is one thing.. 100% safe from any infections is another... and noone MEANS to pass things on.. it just happens...

quite frankly.... i had NO ill snakes in my collection until 6 days ago.. NONE..

as soon as i knew i had i went public..

I regret the upset it has caused,, i regret posting emotionally.. i regret not being perfect in every post..

I do NOT regret having said what i have about hygiene and quarentine procedures...