Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

[toyah]

While I can see how that is relevant in mammals, which are not designed for long periods of minimal feeding, I don't think this can be relevant in Windsor's case. Chelonians are not made to fast, like snakes are ... they need to eat regularly unless brumating, don't they?

Otherwise happy and healthy royals will sometimes quit feeding for months on end with no ill-effects once they begin feeding again. Refeeding syndrome is something that seems to mainly occur in animals that have food denied or restricted long-term in a way abnormal for their species ... and fast periods in royals are not abnormal for royals.

Windsor didn't have unusually long fast periods, he simply ate very infrequently! His longest period off feed was 3rd February to 4th May. He was then fed on 4th May, 4th June, 26th June, 12th July, 18th July, and 6th August, before returning to a regular feeding regime on the 20th August when he went back home with Elle.

 

[diamondlil]

While I can see how that is relevant in mammals, which are not designed for long periods of minimal feeding, I don't think this can be relevant in Windsor's case. Chelonians are not made to fast, like snakes are ... they need to eat regularly unless brumating, don't they?

Otherwise happy and healthy royals will sometimes quit feeding for months on end with no ill-effects once they begin feeding again. Refeeding syndrome is something that seems to mainly occur in animals that have food denied or restricted long-term in a way abnormal for their species ... and fast periods in royals are not abnormal for royals.

Windsor didn't have unusually long fast periods, he simply ate very infrequently! His longest period off feed was 3rd February to 4th May. He was then fed on 4th May, 4th June, 26th June, 12th July, 18th July, and 6th August, before returning to a regular feeding regime on the 20th August when he went back home with Elle.

I remember when I was re-habbing Lil and then Skooge I checked and couldn't find re-feeding syndrome linked to snakes. As well as royals, tiger snakes fast for extended periods with no ill effects

 

[Pruddock]

tiger snakes fast for extended periods with no ill effects

The Tigers that are out on that island off the coast of Australia are crazy. The only time they get to eat each year is when one bird species nests there for a few weeks. If they don't eat...they starve. I don't know why, but that's always fascinated me that they can survive on a place with such limited resources.

 

[klootie]

Possible reasons for Windsors Inability to survive the RI symptoms and possible underlying causes...


1. The length of time Elle took from initially noticing Windors RI symptoms to taking him to the vets for a check up.... this could have been 5 to 7 days sooner dependant on the day of the week she noticed the symptoms if we include weekend days... the vet practice she took windsor to does not hold herp surgeries on a saturday or sunday. IN fact they only have herp surgeries at Cumbernauld on 2 to 3 days out the remaining 5.


2. The fact that he had been a very intermittent eater , (he was around 18 to 20 weeks old when he went initially from Elle to reside with Toyah and ate defrost every 5 to 7 days before that. ) during the next 9 months he did indeed feed sporadically as toyah has mentioned...

however only one feed was voluntary...

here are the records for windsor for that time which i asked elle if i could have to discuss with the vet so that in future if any of my animals seem to be feeding intermittently i have some idea of when is appropriate to get them for a vest visit... the vet explained an animal doesnt not eat for no reason... theres always underlying reasons that can actually be NO fault of anyones...

7-Jan-2007 Acquired
8-Jan-2007 Shed
10-Jan-2007Refused
24-Jan-2007 346g
31-Jan-2007 Fed 2 large mice
3-Feb-2007 Fed 1 weaner rat
16-Feb-2007 366g
18-Mar-2007 354g
7-Apr-2007 338g
15-Apr-2007 330g
27-Apr-2007 320g
4-May-2007 Fed 1 34g mouse
27-May-2007 328g
4-Jun-2007 Fed 1 40g rat
15-Jun-2007 Shed 320g
26-Jun-2007 Fed 1 40g rat
4-Jul-2007 330g
12/07/2007 X large mouse/multi
18/07/2007 50g rat
03/08/2007 340g
06/08/2007 50g rat

For whatever reason windsor did not eat as any keeper would have hoped a young royal would... perhaps due to being a snake that may have been weaker from birth naturally or simply unhappy in his environment through no fault of anyones... this is my personal opinion and not anyone elses... why is it not possible that a sporadic feeder would not have a lower immune system ???

( in fact the vet explained to me this would be the case .. we cant compare to the wild here.. they ARE NOT wild snakes they are captive.. and captive breds are not the same... this was also explained to me by a herp specialist from england over the last few weeks during a telephone call she gave me helping to explain answers to worries i had)

Windsor may even have been less able to fight off any natural bacteria ( and the herp vet also explained they are born with a multitude of this and when they go downhill with their eating the bacteria sees its chance and can take over) but we dont even know if it WAS bacteria.... it could have been a virus or infectious bacteria not natural to the snake or fungal infection... no matter WHY he died he certainly MAY have had a better chance if he had been a good feeder..

this doesnt reflect in any way on the person who had him in her care during this time... windsor may just not have ate because that was the way windsor was... maybe he was oversensitive to the type of box he was in.. or temps or noise who knows??????... goodness we all know theres many snakes we try EVERYTHING possible with to get feeding and they just dont... we could change their environment, change temps for them.. change vivs , boxes, the way we feed them the times we feed them and they STILL wont eat.. so if we do ALL this and we still have a non-feeder its likely its time for a VETS visit.. sooo.. the question is.. how long is an appropriate time to leave a sporadic eating royal python before a keeper thinks.. hmmm... maybe we have an underlying issue here.. maybe i need to take my snake to a specialist..

when do we stop guessing what might be wrong... thinking we KNOW.. and actually start to find out.. thats the issue here.... timescales and realisation... along with my own realistation of personal mistakes this is what i have gained from this sad and stressful time....



I would have taken my own snake ( if windsor had been mine) to the vets as soon as I saw RI symtoms... although a week later according to MANY peoples standards isnt massively long to wait... i would also have taken a sporadic eating young unhappy seeming royal to the vets too... I know many wouldnt and i accpet that.. but i am a worrier by nature and would have to for my peace of mind know what was wrong.. i wouldnt just say..

OH its a non-eater.. if it just wont eat then tough...

Why elle and toyah together did NOT decide windsor should go to the vets during this time I simply do not know.... Im not sure actually who the snake belonged to at the time he was feeding inconsistently... I could be mistaken but I THINK elle had gifted the snake to toyah... ANYWAY... whoevers repsonsibility is was.. joint or singular... i feel strongly a vets visit before his initial one after RI symtoms were noticed would have been a good idea... only my opinion of course... and im not sure it counts for much as i have not been keeping pythons for a long time...


I do have 2 1/2 years experience with corns from when i lived in London years back.. but they are simply not alike enough to pythons to count that experience in this situation...

Im not having a go at Elle or Toyah ... I just feel there were steps along the way.. BEFORE elle took windsor back where a different course of action or intervention COULD have made all the difference... we will never know now... its too late...

Ive made mistakes and freely admitted them...

its the only way to learn...

My point here is... can we learn anything from this situation... if we cant its been in vain...


I have learned this...

IF i have a non-eater the timescale i wait before a vets visit would be sooner than in windsors case

IF i have a snake showing ANY unusual symtoms I make the first appointment I can and get there come hell or high water..

IF that saves any of m snakes in the future or givs them a better chance of pulling through any future illness then at least i feel I have learned from this.

I have also learned the hard way from my own stupid mistakes I made during the apparent transferral of this infection from windors my carpet python and then from my carpet ot my royal..

Mistakes i made and problems i caused...

It would be nice to think there could at least be something to learn from all this...

None of us are perfect... far from it...

and when it comes to reps there is so much more even the experts don’t know than they DO know

 

[suecornish]

Elle, I am so sorry about Windsor. I just got my own royal python and I know how charming they are. I have read the last three or four pages of this thread and would like to offer this: Is there the remote chance that Windsor may have caught something from those first feedings with you that may account for his RI? He was in a weaken condition from not eating, there may have been some contaminant in the food he ate.

Just a shot in the dark from this side of the pond. As I now have both a python and two boas I am very concerned about my husbandry habits and any cross-contamination that might occur in handling them. They are healthy but we all know that some killers lurk around unnoticed for years before they reap the living.

Elle, accept a hug from me. I know how hard it is for you now.

 

[DeepDiver]

For whatever reason windsor did not eat as any keeper would have hoped a young royal would... perhaps due to being a snake that may have been weaker from birth naturally or simply unhappy in his environment through no fault of anyones... this is my personal opinion and not anyone elses... why is it not possible that a sporadic feeder would not have a lower immune system ???

to have got to this age i find it hard to consider windsor being classed as "weaker from birth naturally" in regard to his sporadic feeding regime... surely before being sold to elle the breeder of the snake would ensure that the animal was eating and well and therefore shouldnt present itself as trouble some feeder to its new owner???

i'm not saying that in captive circumstances that weak snakes are not produced... but when they are its highly unlikely that they will survive for more than a couple of months dispite the best efforts of the breeder/keeper... if i'm right in thinking windsor was a 2006 hatchling.

ball pythons for one reason or another have a tendency to change their feeding habits even when they are yearlings... you just have to ask keepers of large collection about some the snakes they are growing on and they will have a number of animals that have just stopped feeding for no obvisious reason... healthwise the snakes are ok etc... it just seems to be the nature of this species. changes in environment can also have both a positive effect as well as a negative effect on the feeding habits of ball pythons... most people will regard that shipping snake in from the US is potentially a stressful process... and it can be... but again if you speak to those who have imported they will report back ball pythons that have fed on defrost within 2 days of arrival while conversely there snakes that will take up to several months before they settle into their new home and start to feed with any regularity.

 

[brittone05]

he was around 18 to 20 weeks old when he went initially from Elle to reside with Toyah and ate defrost every 5 to 7 days before that

I think Elle may have bred Windsor originally or that he was at least riginally sold by Elle to Toyah???

 

[klootie]

to have got to this age i find it hard to consider windsor being classed as "weaker from birth naturally" in regard to his sporadic feeding regime... surely before being sold to elle the breeder of the snake would ensure that the animal was eating and well and therefore shouldnt present itself as trouble some feeder to its new owner???

i'm not saying that in captive circumstances that weak snakes are not produced... but when they are its highly unlikely that they will survive for more than a couple of months dispite the best efforts of the breeder/keeper... if i'm right in thinking windsor was a 2006 hatchling.

ball pythons for one reason or another have a tendency to change their feeding habits even when they are yearlings... you just have to ask keepers of large collection about some the snakes they are growing on and they will have a number of animals that have just stopped feeding for no obvisious reason... healthwise the snakes are ok etc... it just seems to be the nature of this species. changes in environment can also have both a positive effect as well as a negative effect on the feeding habits of ball pythons... most people will regard that shipping snake in from the US is potentially a stressful process... and it can be... but again if you speak to those who have imported they will report back ball pythons that have fed on defrost within 2 days of arrival while conversely there snakes that will take up to several months before they settle into their new home and start to feed with any regularity.

yes i agree..


I thought i had covered the possibility of a change in environment affecting Windsor..... along with al th eother points I raised...

sorry if i wasnt clear enough...

But there can be weaker snakes in captivity by the very nature of the whole of the Animal Kingdom.. humans, reptiles and all the rest... the weaker hatchling.. the weaker one doesnt always necessarily LOOK weaker... it is just natures design....

thats the nature of the life death cycle....

The breeder of windsor is an excelent well respected breeder and in no way was i suggesting that they had remotely caused this... not in the slightest...

I was suggesting there could be a whole host of reasons or only one that triggered windsors final death by euthanasia

 

[klootie]

I think Elle may have bred Windsor originally or that he was at least riginally sold by Elle to Toyah???

NO Elle bought the snake from a well respected excellent breeder in Scotland...

Then due to Elles perosnal circumstances a lot of her animals were either permanatly or temporarily re-homed.. in windsors case he was initially permanantly gifted to Toyah... as a thankyou for helping Elle look after some animals during this time... something toyah did not need to do and was very kind in doing so... Then elle decided to take windsor back when he wasnt feeding so well... basically thats what happened

 

[Tula_Montage]

Um yeah I think I better get a word in LOL

Windsor was bought by me from a breeder I have the upmost respect for, and in no way shape or form have accused him of breeding defected or weak hatchlings... far from it.

I bought Windsor as a beautiful healthy normal male royal python along with another female. Believe it or not he was the better feeder, and far bigger. Infact.. Look at the difference between them.

Windsor

Female

I bought them in late September if I remember correctly... or perhaps it was earlier/later. I can't quite remember. The female was the first to start eating, and Windsor followed suit rather quickly in the care of my partner (he was staying with Edward due to personal circumstances which meant I had to move - thus having to temporarily rehome my animals whilst sorting myself out).

He never once missed a feed in mine and Edwards care. I then gifted him to Toyah as a thankyou for looking after a couple of my snakes during my moving period. An extremely kind gesture on her behalf and I am forever grateful. She had no other royals at this point and fell in love with my female which I later gave to Toyah as well on the promise that I could have one clutch out of her when she was of breeding size (from a male of my choice).

Not that it is relevant, however I feel some people are getting a wee bit confused with all the back and forth information coming in all directions. It helps to know the exact correct background information.

Elle, I am so sorry about Windsor. I just got my own royal python and I know how charming they are. I have read the last three or four pages of this thread and would like to offer this: Is there the remote chance that Windsor may have caught something from those first feedings with you that may account for his RI? He was in a weaken condition from not eating, there may have been some contaminant in the food he ate.

Elle, accept a hug from me. I know how hard it is for you now.

Thank you very much Sue, I totally appreciate your support.

Is it 100% possible that I may have had a bad batch of mice, however myself and my partner use the same bulk food order, therefore his and my snakes would both be affected. We buy from an extremely reputable (and slightly more expensive) food company as we like our rodents to be practically perfect! Nothing worse than smelly mice lol.

Now the cause/source of his illness (as we do not know exactly what it is) is probably never going to be found out. And I don't think that matters. The only thing that does matter is caring for the other animals currently on medication, and trying to find out scientifically EXACTLY what Windsors diagnosis was and how we can go about treating the other snakes.

 

[DeepDiver]

based on the pics i would hazzard a guess that the pair of ball pythons you bought came from different clutches.... hence the reason windsor was the bigger of the two to start with.

how has the female that you gave to toyah doing these days? has there been any change in its feeding habits or is she feeding well and comming on nicely?

 

[DeepDiver]

Possible reasons for Windsors Inability to survive the RI symptoms and possible underlying causes...

2. The fact that he had been a very intermittent eater , (he was around 18 to 20 weeks old when he went initially from Elle to reside with Toyah and ate defrost every 5 to 7 days before that. ) during the next 9 months he did indeed feed sporadically as toyah has mentioned...

however only one feed was voluntary...

here are the records for windsor for that time which i asked elle if i could have to discuss with the vet so that in future if any of my animals seem to be feeding intermittently i have some idea of when is appropriate to get them for a vest visit... the vet explained an animal doesnt not eat for no reason... theres always underlying reasons that can actually be NO fault of anyones...

7-Jan-2007 Acquired
8-Jan-2007 Shed
10-Jan-2007Refused
24-Jan-2007 346g
31-Jan-2007 Fed 2 large mice
3-Feb-2007 Fed 1 weaner rat
16-Feb-2007 366g
18-Mar-2007 354g
7-Apr-2007 338g
15-Apr-2007 330g
27-Apr-2007 320g
4-May-2007 Fed 1 34g mouse
27-May-2007 328g
4-Jun-2007 Fed 1 40g rat
15-Jun-2007 Shed 320g
26-Jun-2007 Fed 1 40g rat
4-Jul-2007 330g
12/07/2007 X large mouse/multi
18/07/2007 50g rat
03/08/2007 340g
06/08/2007 50g rat

looking through the feeding records posted i suggest that the down turn in feeding experienced at the star of the year is something thats not uncommon in royals.... (very shortly on UK forums we'll soon start to see posts from new keepers asking why their 2007 addition has not fed with the same frequency as it did last summer) most keepers experience their royals going through some form of fasting during this time of year and then when early summer comes the pick up and start feeding quite heavily. again if you were to look at large collection of royals you find individuals that will feed differently with no ill effect through out the year.

the vet explained an animal doesnt not eat for no reason...

as a generalisation this point is correct... but with regard to captive snakes i'm supprised that the vet didnt discuss that offering food every 5 to 7 days as being over and above what was really needed to maintain a healthy snake? (certainly hatchling ball pythons from the US that get sent over to the UK are fed as frequently as very 5 days... probably every 10 days) ok i guess one has to take in consideration the size of the food item offered but generally if you compare captive born snakes to their WC counterparts CB snakes generally are bigger because the food source is so abundant and theres not a huge amount of effort involved in getting it...

 

[toyah]

why is it not possible that a sporadic feeder would not have a lower immune system ???

I didn't say that, and I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post Lynn. My point was that if the non-feeding was a direct cause of the respiratory infection somehow, then it would have occurred during his non-feeding phase, not more than six weeks after recovery, when he was looking fabulous - while his sporadic feeding could have theoretically resulted in a somewhat depressed immune system, it was obviously not enough for him to fall foul to an RI during that time - but could in theory have contributed to him being more ill with the respiratory symptoms than other snakes in the same situation when he eventually was exposed to conditions that meant he developed an illness.

Windsor may even have been less able to fight off any natural bacteria ( and the herp vet also explained they are born with a multitude of this and when they go downhill with their eating the bacteria sees its chance and can take over)

This is interesting. Are you saying that your vet confirmed that when snakes are not eating they can develop bacterial respiratory infections, separate from husbandry issues? I would be genuinely interested in seeing some information regarding this, as all I can find information on online is bacterial respiratory infections linked to husbandry defects. Would you be able to ask your vet for me next time you see him, if he has any papers or similar on this? Are there particular strains of bacteria that are implicated in respiratory infections developing due to sporadic feeding?

so if we do ALL this and we still have a non-feeder its likely its time for a VETS visit.. sooo.. the question is.. how long is an appropriate time to leave a sporadic eating royal python before a keeper thinks.. hmmm... maybe we have an underlying issue here.. maybe i need to take my snake to a specialist..

This is another interesting question, and one I've not seen raised before - although I consulted with other more experienced ball python owners and breeders, I did not consider a vet visit as a particuarly helpful cause of action ... certainly less useful than having his breeder and other experienced royal python breeders see him and advise me on him, which happened a few times. There was no need, as far as I could see, for a vet - his sporadic feeding did not result in any dangerous or weight loss, and indeed from the feeding records you can see that once he started accepting assist fed food, he began to feed more regularly over time, halting any weight loss and indeed regaining any weight lost.

But for my (and everyone else's) future reference, - what tests or similar did the vet suggest a specialist would provide at this point? How long does your vet feel is an issue with a snake not feeding, or would he judge by weight loss, condition loss, other factors? What underlying conditions does he feel could contribute to sporadic feeding with no other symptoms of ill-health?

Thanks Lynn

 

[klootie]

I didn't say that, and I'm sorry if you misunderstood my post Lynn. My point was that if the non-feeding was a direct cause of the respiratory infection somehow, then it would have occurred during his non-feeding phase, not more than six weeks after recovery, when he was looking fabulous - while his sporadic feeding could have theoretically resulted in a somewhat depressed immune system, it was obviously not enough for him to fall foul to an RI during that time - but could in theory have contributed to him being more ill with the respiratory symptoms than other snakes in the same situation when he eventually was exposed to conditions that meant he developed an illness.



This is interesting. Are you saying that your vet confirmed that when snakes are not eating they can develop bacterial respiratory infections, separate from husbandry issues? I would be genuinely interested in seeing some information regarding this, as all I can find information on online is bacterial respiratory infections linked to husbandry defects. Would you be able to ask your vet for me next time you see him, if he has any papers or similar on this? Are there particular strains of bacteria that are implicated in respiratory infections developing due to sporadic feeding?



This is another interesting question, and one I've not seen raised before - although I consulted with other more experienced ball python owners and breeders, I did not consider a vet visit as a particuarly helpful cause of action ... certainly less useful than having his breeder and other experienced royal python breeders see him and advise me on him, which happened a few times. There was no need, as far as I could see, for a vet - his sporadic feeding did not result in any dangerous or weight loss, and indeed from the feeding records you can see that once he started accepting assist fed food, he began to feed more regularly over time, halting any weight loss and indeed regaining any weight lost.

But for my (and everyone else's) future reference, - what tests or similar did the vet suggest a specialist would provide at this point? How long does your vet feel is an issue with a snake not feeding, or would he judge by weight loss, condition loss, other factors? What underlying conditions does he feel could contribute to sporadic feeding with no other symptoms of ill-health?

Thanks Lynn

Are there particular strains of bacteria that are implicated in respiratory infections developing due to sporadic feeding?

Who knows...

 

[diamondlil]

Are there particular strains of bacteria that are implicated in respiratory infections developing due to sporadic feeding?

Who knows...

But that's what you're being asked, because it's you who has suggested it:shrugs:

 

[klootie]

But that's what you're being asked, because it's you who has suggested it:shrugs:

ok sorry to clarify as I can see why it looks as though i didnt answer....

My post was actually just throwing ideas out.... boucning thoughts around as to the reasons.... thats all....

at the vets on monday he said.... ( and bear in mind this was the vet that had intially saw windsor on his FIRST visit) that a fact in his demise COULD and i repeat COULD have been his eating habits...

he mentioned the word anorexic... i didnt HE did...

he also said it could have been a million other factors.. OR NONE... just one of those things...

he said much like humans if our immune system becomes affected by a poor eating regime we can catch things more easily or sucumb to numerous problems more easily and not have the same amount of defenses to pul through any issues...

i DID not suggest there was a specific bacteria borught on by non-eating habits...

what i wil say is this...

if i asked my vet every single question everyone wanted an answer to i would need probably TWO full appointments.. costing me a further £70 ( $160)

now as far as i can see... that money would be better spent on any other vet bills i may have for the snakes...

I ONLY made suggestions and re-itterated what he said...

i stil feel and wil always feel this Windsor problem was caused by a mixture of factors .... without full clear results noone can be held responsible... and im not even looking to blame anyone...

the vet simply explained many factors... eating.. moving of environment... stress... and ANY other factor could have been repsonsible or NONE of these..

trying to FIND the answers to many of these questions is now impossible..

i was trying to point out only what the vet had suggested... which is basically...

YES it MAY have been the eating... but MAY NOT have been... YES it MAY have ben stress in environment changes... but MAY NOT have been.. YES it MAY be a bacteria BUT might NOT be... YES it could have been virul it MAY NOT BE...

can anyone see a frustrating pattern dveloping...

I STIL have two snakes not out the woods yet so wuite frankly ME more than anyone else would LOVE the answers to ALL toyahs questions and everyone else... because IF i had them maybe my snakes could be at much less risk than they potentially are...

I stil dont know what this is

stil dont know how to fix it

i do know my carpet pythons bloods came back with a high level of neutraphills ( sorry id spelling of this is wrong) WHICH is pretty much liek a igh white blood count in humans..... showing theres somethign wrong and the body is trying to fight it off..... but I still dont know what this is he is fighting off.. i So wish i did....

I am sure though if peopel have enough questions they want answered making their own appointment at the vets might be appropriate...

I for one cant return to ask everything everyone wishes to know unfortunately.... and to be honest even if i was willing to travel and pay to ask these questions im sure the vet would only say.. MAYBE.. POSSIBLY.... PERHAPS.. which as far as i can see is what i already said.....and I dont want my snakes appointments taken up with other peoples quiestions when i KNOW for a fact there are no DEFINITIVE answers yet.. or maybe ever...

even if i did go and ask him questions and returned with answers there woul more than likely be MORE questions from those answers people wanted clarified... and then again and again...

so perhaps it was total folly to even say a word about what the vet had mentioned... i wont again... its only casuing more upset .... so im sorry for that.....

as ive said im fully aware of the mistakes i made that contributed to my snakes being ill... 100%.. but thats all the certainty i have...

I made suggestions NOT claims..... which is bascially what the vet also did..

OK well thats it for now i guess....

i was really just musing my thoughts on the forum, opinions and ponderings that the vet had got me thinking about... NOT 100% facts... my opinion which I hope was obvious from the post I made earlier.... but obviously wasnt so once again I appologise for my opinions being seen as facts...

the vet said 100% results and definitive answers in this case are something we may never attain

 

[diamondlil]

But surely the vet did tracheal washes on your snakes before starting treatment?
Sorry to distress you Lynne, I'd just expect the vet to have some definate answers as to the strain of bacteria in the snakes by now. I really do hope they improve soon.

 

[klootie]

But surely the vet did tracheal washes on your snakes before starting treatment?
Sorry to distress you Lynne, I'd just expect the vet to have some definate answers as to the strain of bacteria in the snakes by now. I really do hope they improve soon.

No its fine youre not distressing me... the situation is..

I am mad because shug was admitted to critical care on a friday ... i assumed the etsts i sanctioned would be carried out THAT day... they were NOT carried out until the monday or the tuesday following week by which time he had injected AND oral antibiotics.. IM fuming this happened and I stil have to pay for the tests anyway...

I want an answer too..... not for anyone else.. not to keep breeders happy... for my snakes...



And as soon as i get an answer IF i do i will post it immediately

Im sorry I dont have what people want,.... i know its frustrating.... I have two snakes who would really like an answer to.....

 

[enigma]

i myself would discount the feeding idea. when it comes to royals in particular, we would all have umpteen snakes dying on us if this were the case. even royal hatchlings can be hard to get started eating.

 

[diamondlil]

I know how that can happen, my friend's red setter went away for heart tests and came back with no real answers and kennel cough which spread to her other dog and brand new puppy! Then she had to pay for the treatment for the kennel cough which had been caught at the vets!
Anyway, is your daughter's royal improving yet?