Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

[enigma]

i think a lot of people were gobsmacked by this coming to light.

 

[toyah]

So, did Elle lie about feedng Lynnes snake a mouse that Windsor refused? This thread has me confused, i thought Elle said she used the same feeding tongs for both snakes and that that was how the RI was spread?

Link: Lynn seems to think the two snakes were offered the same mouse

Quote from linked post:
"elle used same tongs to feed windsorand my carpet python , she offered windsor a mouse which he refused... ( jsut to clear up at no point was this mouse in HIS MOUTH as some peopel have accused) she then washed the mouse and fed to MY python who was at her house... "

 

[snake5007]

So that makes two people that have said this.

 

[DeepDiver]

if i asked my vet every single question everyone wanted an answer to i would need probably TWO full appointments.. costing me a further £70 ( $160)

I'm pretty sure if you called the vet and asked if he could take then time to answer your questions over the phone you wouldnt be charged... having already spent as you state a considerable amount of money with this particular practice.

I am mad because shug was admitted to critical care on a friday ... i assumed the etsts i sanctioned would be carried out THAT day... they were NOT carried out until the monday or the tuesday following week by which time he had injected AND oral antibiotics.. IM fuming this happened and I stil have to pay for the tests anyway...

if that was the case i would have thought that you would be quite within your rights not to have to pay for tests that could be affected by the fact the snake had received anti-biotics prior to test samples being taken... also if the practice has admitted they made a mistake then sureyl they would have the good will not to charge for their mistakes????

 

[enigma]

reading the rfuk thread, lyn had related the mouse thing to someone, who then relayed it to someone else who then posted it. they did try denying it, but to no avail.

 

[enigma]

actually its on this thread too.

 

[enigma]

page 22 on this thread will tell you about the mouse.

 

[DeepDiver]

That photo was taken on the 29th May according to my records - and would have been almost exactly at his lowest weight, as I had only assist fed him once at that point. It is a quick snap in poor lighting of a snake that was asleep, when I'd just lifted his hide up to take a photo of him - not a photo where I'd woke him up, got his attention, posed him a bit, showed him off at his best.

I'm sorry, but anyone who claims to be able to judge his health and condition from one photo of that quality, is, and I say this with the upmost respect to the people involved, talking out of their arse, or simply saying what you want to hear.

For an actual third party thought on his condition during July, or thereabouts ... two well respected and experienced royal python breeders saw him during July, and agreed that he looked fine, and with enough excess body weight that I should stop assist feeding him, as he would eat on his own when he was hungry enough. I have to comment that they decided this by handling and looking at him, not by having a quick glance at one photo online!

have to agree with you there toyah... based on that pic i would put it down to crappy photo (no knocking your photography skills... LOL!)

based on that pic alone anyone that can say its an ill snake is in the wrong business... i have a few years experience with snakes and certainly if i received a pic like that i would be looking to run to the vets.

this was the pic of windsor toyah took during the summer.... end of maybe July i think...

bear in mind this was not him at his lowest weight...

I have shown this pic to other keepers and breeders interested in this situation and they have said... he does look really quite poorly

would not be fair to consider that the replies/comments you got back from the other breeders/keepers you contacted were so as they were sympathetic to your distressed and concerned situation at the time...

So does your vet who COMPLETELY DISCOUNTS PROBELM FEEDING.... think this snake would not have been more susceptable to disease or ilness...

if so thats VERY interesting...

so it seems to me then.. that even the specialists cant agree.. if THEY CANT what in hell chance do we have really....

when do specialists ever agree completely.... !?!?! also their decisions/views on an animals situation is based on the information they are given at the time and also how they decide to interpretate the information they have

 

[DeepDiver]

have to agree with you there toyah... based on that pic i would put it down to crappy photo (no knocking your photography skills... LOL!)

based on that pic alone anyone that can say its an ill snake is in the wrong business... i have a few years experience with snakes and certainly if i received a pic like that i wouldNOT be looking to run to the vets.

sorry didnt read it through when i posted... an couldnt find the edit button....

 

[diamondlil]

That Photo was taken months before the RI though, If you look at this thread, this is how Windsor looked when he left Toyah
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55209&highlight=windsor

 

[enigma]

lynn definately says in a thread here, the mouse windsor refused was washed and fed to shug, sorry im no good at pasting etc, so what exactly is going on here? and thats like me chewing my dinner then taking it out my mouth and feeding it to the guy up the road!!!! its disgusting.

 

[Nanci]

lynn definately says in a thread here, the mouse windsor refused was washed and fed to shug, sorry im no good at pasting etc, so what exactly is going on here? and thats like me chewing my dinner then taking it out my mouth and feeding it to the guy up the road!!!! its disgusting.

I do that all the time, or I'd be throwing away a lot of mice. But my snakes are healthy. (Of course I wouldn't do it with a mouse that had been in another snake's mouth and spit out).

Nanci

 

[diamondlil]

It's said that Windsor didn't touch the mouse. It is, however, said that his saliva may have been on the tongs:shrugs:

 

[snake5007]

That wouldn't be possible unless the tongs were placed in his mouth, or he struck at the mouse. :shrugs:

 

[mele2511]

My girlfriend used to give pinkys to her new born hatchlings that had been given to a different one that had refused... Now reading this tread she does not do it anymore

 

[snake5007]

lynn definately says in a thread here, the mouse windsor refused was washed and fed to shug, sorry im no good at pasting etc, so what exactly is going on here? and thats like me chewing my dinner then taking it out my mouth and feeding it to the guy up the road!!!! its disgusting.

Didn't Lynne put that down to a mistake?

 

[enigma]

i only offer mice to another if the one that refused has ignored it, and not touched it. like last week i had one strike then play with the rat. that rat went in the bin, as, even although they are all my snakes, i dont like the idea of one snakes saliva going in anothers mouth.

 

[klootie]

Thanks Janine. I think it was getting a bit sidetracked here. The fact my sitting room is colder than the snake room is really neither here nor there, as far as I can tell. Temperature in my snake room was only ever an issue in the last couple of days in September, five weeks after Windsor left, and we rectified the issue as soon as it was noticed by introducing extra supplementary heating for the winter.

Temperatures were only really mentioned in this case as my temperatures have been repeatedly mentioned as a factor in both Windsor's refusal to feed while here, and then later in his respiratory illness.

What do you mean sitting room...

You asked me specifically on msn if the ambient temps in your snake room were a bit on the cold side... I replied yes... you then went on to block me on msn after I replied.. it was not only myself that thought that... and that was in the beginning of spetember..


it is ONLY MY OPINION your snake room was chilly in september... MY OPINION... i could be completely wrong ... it was ONLY my ex-partners opinion too,...

we ALL feel temps in different ways...



Anyway...

noone said the temps OR his feeding were a facor.. the VET SAID THEY MAY HAVE BEEN...

ok hows this is this any easier for you all...


it is 100% my fault and elles this happened ... it has nothing to do with toyah nothing to do with anyone else ..

there hows that

My vet is talking out his arse ( a phrase i borrowed from toyahs post a few pages back).. i shal tel him the experts on here KNOW he is talking crap next time i see him and by the way he IS THE VEt to many SCOTTISH breeders in the area I live in.. and he is HIGHLY respected ....

Elle explained to the vets what Windsor had fed and when... the vet said it MAY..

CAN I SAY ONCE AGAIN FOR ANYONE THATS MISSED IT

MAY

was that clear ???

MAY have had something to do with his final demise... and NOBODY can say 100% it wasnt..

She also explained all the different things she could have done to cause or contribute to his demise./... she realises 100% it mayhave had absolutely nothing to do with temps or feeding at toyahs... GEESH how many times do i need to re-itterate that...

I have said over and over and over this isnt a 100% case study... its a frustrating complex mess... and SO FAR reults have proven inconclusive..

it is ONLY guesswork...

YOU KNOW ME TOYAH... i might not be easly liked... I might be a pain in the arse but i NEVER LIE... yes i am opinionated... yes I state my opinions but if you re-read at no stage have i ever blamed anyone.. I have made honest suggestions and re-iterated what the vet told me.. and elle when we were BOTH there... i am not taking elles side...

For goodness sake.. her feeding fault passed this onto MY snake.... her mistake.. but you know what.. Im not even angry at her....

she admitted it and was genuinely devestated .... which in my books is a million times better than covering her behind!!!

All i can see here is people pretending to be prefect... to protect themselves..

not admiting to handing snakes round like sweets... no hand sanitisation... I HAVE DONE THIS... i am admitting it... but guess what .. it wasnt oly at my own home.. it was at other peoples homes and sheds and reptile meetings in scotland!!!! Initially i didnt even know this was wrong.. i have only kept snakes for 2 yrs previous to this year over a decade ago and never knew anyone else with reptiles.

I am admitting exactly what many people who think i am in the wrong have said... I didnt practice perfect husbandry neither did elle...

WE ADMITTED THIS..

but for a bunch of people who COULD have also done better whether they were ever in contact with elles snakes or mine or had us handling their snakes over the last 6 months.... its sickening...

I have tried to hold back . tired not to get emotional.. tried to stay calm..

But frankly i am pig sick of the whole thing...

I am not trying to protect Elle and her mistakes... SHE passed it intially to my collection... if anyone should be angry at her I SHOULD... and IM NOT... do you know why...

within the reptile community she may be one of the most outspoken in-your-face opinionated pains in the arse.. BUT she has the one quality i hold above all else... the ability to be honest and judgemental of herself...

Everyone else just seems to be closed and protective... noone comes on and says... yes lynn i remember when you were at my house... the way i fed my animals was a bit dodgy or the way we passed snakes around from person to person no sanitiser wasnt a good idea .. thanks for pointing it out.. maybe i can change things... NOONE

I BET all the money in the world.. those people who stay quiet about these things have changed their practice after this whole shambolic mess... through me being outspoken and emotional and frustrated.. so if everyone that doesnt liek what ive said or suggested.. then at least behind the scenes it might just have made an ounce of a difference.. tightened up quarentine procedures... husbandry aspects and heating etc/// I BET behind the preverbial scene these people who try to appear so perfect have made important and possible life saving changes for the future of their pets and or collections.

AND if this is the case then everythign I have said so far wil have been worth it..

BUT do you see them coming online and saying.. actually i see there was a few loopholes in my practice.. DARN... i need to change that... OOPS i beter stop this...

NO... they arent...

My head as you can probably tell is burst from al this..

it has turned into a vendetta about whos fault it was that WINDOSR died...

when i STILL have two snakes unwell and no idea if they wil pull through...

i made suggestions ones the vet said to me.. about POSSIBILITIES...

however as everyone on here seems SO certain they know what went on and why.. it would be FOLLY to give any more informatio out... noone is going to believe it anyway... everyone is going to say im either lying or my vets is lying or elle is lying or we are wrong.... since you are al such experts... then u can make your own mind up now...

i was asked NOT to stop updating and it wasnt fair if i did.. THEN when i do update with vets comments or test results noone believes me and i have to take hours out my day to re-exlain myself and re-iterate to no avail...


WHATS THE POINT

 

[klootie]

lynn definately says in a thread here, the mouse windsor refused was washed and fed to shug, sorry im no good at pasting etc, so what exactly is going on here? and thats like me chewing my dinner then taking it out my mouth and feeding it to the guy up the road!!!! its disgusting.

JUST TO MAKE CLEAR sigh....

ELLE offered windsor a mouse.. IT WAS NOT IN HIS MOUTH.,

GEESH

she then went from windsors room ( where he was alone and in isolation) to MY CARPET PYTHON SHUG

without steralising the tongs... she washed the mouse in boiled woater and fed it to shug the carpet.. YES IT WAS A MISTAKE>>> YES>>>> YES SHE ADMITTED THIS....

HANG HER!!!

I do that all the time, or I'd be throwing away a lot of mice. But my snakes are healthy. (Of course I wouldn't do it with a mouse that had been in another snake's mouth and spit out).

Nanci

this is what elle did basically... as i said IT WASNT IN THE SNAKES MOUTH...


Ok i just really had to clear that up....

YET AGAIN


it then passe from SHUG ( whom was showing no signs) to my ROYAL when if ed them in the same tub...

OH just to point out


THIS IS OF COURSE if this is an ifectious ISSUE... which the VET ALSO SAID it MAY not be.. IT MAY BE COINCIDENCE..

I personally think it was infectious...

Anyway... this thread much like the one on RFUK is going round and round in pointless circles with me continually having to re-explain and re-itterate...

so again i think since everyones quite convinved they know why this is happening and who caused it.. its over and out for me...

no point posting results whether conclusive or not.. as noone seems to trust ME or MY VET...

I am not willing to take time out of my life to post anymore on a thread where im bascially being called a liar and my vets WRONG....

 

[enigma]

i think i know the vet you went to, and well i wouldnt say well liked, or respected, but thats not my business. and to be honest i dont care how you feed your snakes, as long as i can put my hand on my heart and say my snakes dont get fed this way, no way. and you must be either very niaive, or do you not care that much, because if someone friend or not, had passed this to my snakes i would be raging!!! but then i feed mine myself, no one feeds mine but me. then i have no one but me to blame.
i think what is annoying most people is the fact the mouse incident was kept hidden, until nerys told us all. and the way i see it was you were trying to blame a third person here. i could be wrong, but thats the way i and many others see this now.
can i also point out, you have not posted on rfuk any of the results you have through even although its not them all.