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Talking to a Cohabber...

lumene

lumene

rebuilding my life
Okay All,
Another member on another forum (ferrets not snakes, I guess that will explain a few things) got very upset when I told her that cohabbing is unkind to the snakes to say the least.
All I did was point that out, and ask her to remove the pictures of her 'happy snakes'.

cohabbed.jpg



The premise of my message was that cohabbing is frowned upon by most corn snake owners... Her response is below:

Just because pet shops and breeders THINK that a snake is a solitary animal doesn't necessarily make it so. I certainly don't need the opinions of pet shop mouth pieces to guide me in my animal's care! Good lord if I followed that kind of advice I'd still be poisoning my ferrets with kibble and force feeding my snakes junk filled processed purchased sausages!

There is nothing cruel about my two snakes co-inhabiting the same environment. Neither exhibits neurotic or withdrawn or aggressive behaviors. They both eat whole live prey freely without having to be force fed!

Who are you or the pet shops or the breeders to say that in the wild (where these snakes originated) that it is NOT common for Okeetee corn snakes to cohabit? There are many instances where snakes gather and are found inhabiting the same burrows, tunnels, crawl spaces and underbrush! YOU do the research! Try Garter snakes for a start! (Garters aren't corns)

Go ahead - take a walk in the wilds of Florida - where you find one snake, you are likely to find another nearby! This holds true for rattle snakes, water moccasins, copperheads, king snakes, corn snakes, pine snakes and ribbon snakes - the only ones I've seen consistently solitary are coral snakes. This close proximity to one another is NOT just happening at breeding times, nor does it indicate specific environmental habitats or even a preponderance of prey - it could verily indicate that snakes DO keep in the company of other snakes of their kind!

How presumptuous of you to suppose that my snakes are suffering an injustice or being housed cruelly! Both snakes are very healthy, friendly, curious, and often coil up together after a meal. They do not fight. There was an initial dominance display by Slinky (the elder and larger) that Slinkette acquiesced to within the first few days and all is quiet and content on their home front.

The holistic ferret site, of all places, should be a site where people can have their minds broadened, their eyes opened and their thought processes freed from the binding entrenchments of pet shops and money hungry breeders!

Instead of claiming that the thread is your personal sand box and kicking sand in my face - maybe you should inquire as to how I managed to build a snake friendly sand castle?

No, I think my posts can stay where they are to offer other people a chance to see that yes, Okeetee corn Snakes CAN cohabit and the proof is there for them to see.

Me:
Last I checked, parts of this argument don't work... These aren't corns in the wild, they're in a tank in your house where they can't get away from one another if they want to, which they do in the wild.

Okeetees are somehow different from every other morph? I have three and I don't notice ANY difference between them and the other corns I have.

Not looking to start a war- would just like some opinions on the matter. Thanks as always.
 
I would be nervous to have snakes that have such a noticeable size difference in the same tank...
 
Yeah, those are normals... I am just stumped at how to reply... I'd settle for her getting the darn picture(s) off my thread, which several pages earlier I discussed cohabbing and my views on it, so she's stepping on my toes to piss me off. Brat.

I can't take this problem to the mods of the forum where this argument is taking place because there aren't too many actual snake people on it.
I don't have the time to carry on a proper discussion due to finals at school and juggliing 28 animals... so if I could get some help putting together a cohesive reply, that'd be great.
 
It's actually quite common in Europe to cohabit in large vivs, so I don't automatically think a person is wrong and uneducated for cohabbing, I just choose to keep mine in a rack system for my convenience.
I cohabit my breeding pairs for a couple of weeks, until the females are gravid. The rest of the year they are in their seperate tubs. I have not seen any ill effects at all. The females eat, the males refuse (too sexed up at this time of year), the males don't harrass the females they mate when the female tail flags. If I hadn't met breeders here that had followed the same practice successfully for years I'd never have tried it, I'd have followed the blanket 'cohabbing is always bad' advice on here.
 
dimondill- I don't think this is a 'large viv' setup. If it was a 90gal or even 60gal tank that was short and wide instead off tall I'd have no problem with it (I am flexible on cohabbing if done knowing that snakes don't 'cuddle' and don't need/want to interact all the time). This is also a pair that is cohabbed year round. I haven't yet heard from her if she knows the genders of her snakes (and that they can breed without brumating...)

I'm not even very concerned that this is a behavioural thing between her snakes, but a medical/health p.o.v as I haven't heard about her quarantine procedures...The typical parasites illness and etc. And the eating of other snakes as was mentioned above...
 
If she's really THAT adamant about it, there's no convincing her.

HOWEVER, after living in Florida for 21 years, I'd bring up the following points:
  • Corals are only solitary because they EAT other snakes.
  • I've lived in Florida almost my entire life. Anytime I've ever found a cornsnake, it's been alone. Anytime I've ever found a black racer, it's been alone (unless it's mating). Anytime I've found a pygmy or diamondback rattler, it's been alone. And when I say "alone", I mean NO other snakes (other than the oddball ringneck) within a fairly decent walk/cruise. Garters are the only snakes I've seen living in the same area, and that's because they're the exception to the unwritten rule.
  • A ferret site isn't the best place to discuss needs for snakes. Come to a snake forum and see how well your "care" is accepted here.
  • Have a chat with some of those "money hungry" breeders. You'll find that quite a few of them lose money every year when they breed.
  • Have a chat with a reptile vet (a real one, not one who specializes in exotics other than reptiles). See what they recommend.
  • READ A BOOK.

But then again, what do I know? I'm just a "presumptuous" person who thinks I know better than she who obviously has more experience than me. :rolleyes:
 
Not that I am any expert on any snake species, (in fact, i have learned more here reading than most books i picked up on the subject).....A few questions to this person would be: How do you know your snakes are happy?.....Are there tell tale signs for a snake's happiness?.......Do they smile at you after a meal?...........

I might not know alot about corn snakes, but i even know cohabbing predators in a confined space can lead to bad things, not always but to me its a good rule of thumb....
 
I do think a snake is fine with being co-habbed as it does not change its behavior from when it was alone in a viv. If it keeps eating, shedding, pooping as before, stays shiney and there is no activities going on that indicate wrestlign, fighting or flighting, to me the snakes involved are just fine. It just needs experience and the means to separate them if it does look like a certain snake is not in optimal condition 'mentally' or physically when beign co-habbed.

I do know they do not cuddle up, but I also know that I have hardly seen ANY indication my co-habbed snakes are fighting for a certain spot. Most of them are together in one space a lot but do separate sometimes. Especially when not being fed on the same day, one might go digesting in a warm spot whilst the other stays where it was before the other one was being fed. I do not believe either that they are in the same spot a lot because that is THE place to be at that moment for both of them. I cannot believe that their internal clock and digestive track is synced that much. I do think that cuddling up might actually provide them with a sense of safety because it might feel a lot like they are in a very thight space, which we know they like. I find 2 juvenile corns completely cramped up in a coco nut shell all the time, even if another one is very nearby, they seem to like that a lot.

I have two female boa's together for a couple of months now, the oldest one really seems to 'enjoy' the company of the female I placed with her. I know they most probably are not even capable of that, but it is really hard to explain her behavior otherwise. She acts likes she is truly mesmerized by the younger one, staying at her side about 90% of the time, keeping an eye on her when she goes exploring. There are no signs of stress, both eat and shed as well as they did when they were living separated. They are calm and friendly as ever. I did have both probed to be sure they are both female, and they are.
 
I wonder too, why do snakes "cuddle" up in one hide together, when there is another hide very close by? They aren't competing for the warm spot so one would think they like it. I don't agree with co-habbing after seeing the pics, but I do often wonder about this.
 
The size difference between those two alone should be an indicating factor that her snakes are not doing well. That and the live feeding >.>
Sadly, you just can't fix the vast amount of ignorance.
 
The thing I am having trouble with right now is that she is doing all of this work on the ferret forum to increase awareness about ferrets and natural diet, which I get and agree with, but when I gave her a link to this forum she doesn't believe anyone on here is worth her time...

(I have so many different pets now... reptiles, fur, arachs... and I frequent forums for all of them.. if I didn't have like minded people and people, like all of you, to have intelligent conversations with, I'd still be a floundering noob).
 
Wyldrose said:
^^^ Ditto.

The petshops here all say it's ok to cohabit snakes, why? Well they make more money if they sell you 2 snakes then if they sell you one.
Click to expand...
I'd say, looking at my local shops pricing for vivs and supplies, they can make an awful lot more from selling you multiple vivs than multiple snakes to put in 1! A corn would cost around £50, the set up runs to around £80 for a startup kit, £100 upwards for a decent adult sized vivarium......
 
This person really blows me away. I'm one of those that can accept a cohabbing practice done RIGHT. I don't like it by any means, but I won't automatically label a person as a bad snake keeper if they do it. However... This person is wholly and frustratingly ignorant. And arrogant!

As an advocate for proper animal care herself, I am incredibly disappointed that this person REFUSES to listen to any sort of rhyme or reason. And her arrogant refusal to consider that maybe she should seek the advice of keepers on a forum dedicated to this species absolutely blows me away! By the sounds of it, that is her entire PURPOSE for being on that ferret forum, and undoubtedly the purpose OF that ferret forum, yet here she is blowing off the corn snake version of her own domain because god forbid she admit she's wrong! UGH!

Maybe it's sleep deprivation talking (<3 insomnia.. not), but I'm so completely frustrated by this person's stupidity that I can hardly think straight. And, YES, I just called her stupid. Have you ever heard the saying, that the difference between ignorance and stupidity is a willingness and ability to learn? Well... She sure as heck doesn't seem to be displaying any kind of "willingness" to learn better for the sake of her snakes!

diamondlil said:
I'd say, looking at my local shops pricing for vivs and supplies, they can make an awful lot more from selling you multiple vivs than multiple snakes to put in 1! A corn would cost around £50, the set up runs to around £80 for a startup kit, £100 upwards for a decent adult sized vivarium......
Click to expand...

Ah, but it's a lot harder to get a person to buy both snakes when that also means 2 full set-ups. I guess, from a pet store point of view, it's better to go the "easy" way of just convincing a person they can house 2 snakes in the same enclosure (and get that extra $50 or whatever sale) than it is to risk them deciding to pass on getting that second snake at all when they find out that means a whole second setup because cohabbing is dangerous.

(If anything in this post doesn't make sense, I apologize. It's 4 am here and I haven't slept yet, so my mind is starting to go wacky. Even forgot how to spell "dangerous" for a few minutes!)
 
SnakeAround said:
I do think a snake is fine with being co-habbed as it does not change its behavior from when it was alone in a viv. If it keeps eating, shedding, pooping as before, stays shiney and there is no activities going on that indicate wrestlign, fighting or flighting, to me the snakes involved are just fine. It just needs experience and the means to separate them if it does look like a certain snake is not in optimal condition 'mentally' or physically when beign co-habbed.

I do know they do not cuddle up, but I also know that I have hardly seen ANY indication my co-habbed snakes are fighting for a certain spot. Most of them are together in one space a lot but do separate sometimes. Especially when not being fed on the same day, one might go digesting in a warm spot whilst the other stays where it was before the other one was being fed. I do not believe either that they are in the same spot a lot because that is THE place to be at that moment for both of them. I cannot believe that their internal clock and digestive track is synced that much. I do think that cuddling up might actually provide them with a sense of safety because it might feel a lot like they are in a very thight space, which we know they like. I find 2 juvenile corns completely cramped up in a coco nut shell all the time, even if another one is very nearby, they seem to like that a lot.

I have two female boa's together for a couple of months now, the oldest one really seems to 'enjoy' the company of the female I placed with her. I know they most probably are not even capable of that, but it is really hard to explain her behavior otherwise. She acts likes she is truly mesmerized by the younger one, staying at her side about 90% of the time, keeping an eye on her when she goes exploring. There are no signs of stress, both eat and shed as well as they did when they were living separated. They are calm and friendly as ever. I did have both probed to be sure they are both female, and they are.
Click to expand...

Plenty of snakes seem perfectly fine with each other, and are. Until one eats the other. Even if they're the same size. It's not unheard of, it's not even rare. :c
 
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