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To cull or not to cull

texastailfeathers

texastailfeathers

New member
I got two ball python hatchlings about 6 weeks ago. The male has taken 6 or 7 meals with me and has grown from 67g to 89g. He has a killer feeding response. He is such an enthusiastic feeder that he even bit me once. He readily eats f/t or live, rats or mice, whatever I put in front of him.

The female, however, has never taken a meal with me. Temps and humidity are correct, cage arrangement is correct (two identical hides, water dish, lots of darkness, etc.). I don't really suspect husbandry because her brother is in an identical viv and is a healthy little chunk of a snake now. I'm doubtful of parasites because big bro should have them too.

I haven't even bothered to try f/t with this girl. I've offered live pinky mice and fuzzies, pinky rats, a spiny mouse weanling (smaller than the pinky rats), and a pinky hamster. I rubbed of the mouse pinkies with some really stinky gerbil bedding, and scented another with a lizard.

I've tried to feed her in her viv, in Gladware, in a pillowcase, in a closet...always a small, confined space in complete darkness, and I always leave the prey with her overnight. On Sunday I finally tried an assist feed at the urging of some BP breeders, and she spit it out TWICE. The first time I didn't get the prey deep enough into her mouth, but the second time I know I did. Then she curled up so tight I couldn't budge her.

She has lost 22g. She weighed 64g and now weighs 42g. Is it time to cull? :shrugs:
 
:[ If you want you could probably try a gerbil. Its kinda pricy but might be wort it if she eats it. Also she might not accept anything else but gerbils if she gets use to them (what ive read)
sorry im not much help :[

I hope things tirn around for you.
Oh another thing i noticed that works is different locations. Kade wont eat unless he is on my kitchen table with the far light on and the one above him off.
Its wierd lol
 
Nomed said:
:[ If you want you could probably try a gerbil. Its kinda pricy but might be wort it if she eats it. Also she might not accept anything else but gerbils if she gets use to them (what ive read)
sorry im not much help :[

I hope things tirn around for you.
Oh another thing i noticed that works is different locations. Kade wont eat unless he is on my kitchen table with the far light on and the one above him off.
Its wierd lol
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I can't find any baby gerbils around here at the moment. :( That's why I scented one of the pinky mice with gerbil bedding.

And I've tried as many different locations as prey items. I'm running out of options. I'm sure it sounds cruel to some, but I really think it's time to cull her. I'm running short on ideas.
 
:[ poor dear. I will speak for myself when I say I dont think its cruel to cull her. Its kind of a nice thing to do. If shes not eating at all theres only one direction she can go and its deffitnally not up. I would not be able to do it. I would feel so bad
 
Nomed said:
:[ poor dear. I will speak for myself when I say I dont think its cruel to cull her. Its kind of a nice thing to do. If shes not eating at all theres only one direction she can go and its deffitnally not up. I would not be able to do it. I would feel so bad
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I've culled before...just not snakes. I'm not against it in any way, but I just want to make sure I've taken the proper steps thus far.

I forgot to mention that I killed and slit one of the rat pinks. If the smell of warm blood can't get a snake to eat, then I don't know what else to do. :shrugs:
 
I've had baby ball pythons go three or so months with out eating. Have you tried a hopper mouse? Sometimes a slightly larger prey item will get the feeding response that you want. Also you could try soft furred rats if you can find them around your area.
 
westexherps said:
I've had baby ball pythons go three or so months with out eating. Have you tried a hopper mouse? Sometimes a slightly larger prey item will get the feeding response that you want. Also you could try soft furred rats if you can find them around your area.
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She is down to 42g. Could she even eat a hopper? That spiny mouse weanling was very squeaky and jumpy. I was surprised that didn't stir her. It made a nice meal for my yearling corn. :rolleyes:

I don't think she ever ate her first meal. I don't think she's eaten since she hatched (which is probably why I have her...long story).
 
Jenn, I'm no expert and I agree with you on culling. I guess I would ask if the snake is listless, is she drinking water. If for all purposes she seems fine just not eating I would give her a little longer. JMHO, susan
 
susang said:
Jenn, I'm no expert and I agree with you on culling. I guess I would ask if the snake is listless, is she drinking water. If for all purposes she seems fine just not eating I would give her a little longer. JMHO, susan
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I'm really leaning that way.

She was very active when we got her, constantly cruising the viv, but now she stays balled up in a warm, dark corner 24/7. She was strong enough to fight me when I tried to assist feed, but that's the only time I've seen her move in weeks and she didn't get aggressive with me...she just resisted. I also don't see any urine or urates in her tub, so I don't think she's drinking. I've put her in her water dish a few times, but I haven't wanted to stress her too much.

She's just sooooo skinny. She looks awful. Her brother looks fabulous, and is more than twice her size at the same age.
 
I'm sorry, I'm sure it has become such a hard decision for you. I hate to see any animal suffer, at the same time at some point one needs to give up. Just know there are many here supporting your decision. :cry: susan
 
susang said:
I'm sorry, I'm sure it has become such a hard decision for you. I hate to see any animal suffer, at the same time at some point one needs to give up. Just know there are many here supporting your decision. :cry: susan
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Thanks. Culling is never pleasant. I just culled a bird for another breeder because she couldn't do it herself. The bird had seizures and would have never been normal. Some people don't understand, but oh well. If nature doesn't have the opportunity to do it, then we have to take it upon ourselves.
 
You say that she isn't drinking, could she not be eating because she is too weak and dehydrated? Have you tried putting her in an inch or two of 91-93 degree water and letting her soak. I know thats what I did with my BCI and it helped immensly. She may just need the oppurtunity to get some water in her. I know how hard it is, and I'm sort of regretting not culling my Viper Boa recently, but I just cant give up on a snake. I tried tube feeding and tube hydrating up until he died. Its always a sad thing to happen and Like susan said....we're all here for you and we all support your decision. :cry:
 
Pruddock said:
You say that she isn't drinking, could she not be eating because she is too weak and dehydrated? Have you tried putting her in an inch or two of 91-93 degree water and letting her soak. I know thats what I did with my BCI and it helped immensly. She may just need the oppurtunity to get some water in her. I know how hard it is, and I'm sort of regretting not culling my Viper Boa recently, but I just cant give up on a snake. I tried tube feeding and tube hydrating up until he died. Its always a sad thing to happen and Like susan said....we're all here for you and we all support your decision. :cry:
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I will put her in a dish of warmish water tonight. The worst she can do is crawl out, right? :shrugs: She used to drink and I did see urates for the first few weeks (sorry I didn't clarify earlier), but not lately. I don't think she ever leaves that dark corner.

I don't know how effective tube feeding would be with a BP. She certainly seems to have her mind set to starve. I've heard so many breeders say they tube fed their snakes for months, only to have them continue to refuse to eat on their own. At that point, what purpose does the snake serve? I don't want to keep her alive just so I can feel good about myself for "saving" an animal. (Just thinking "out loud" here...not talking about anyone in particular. Everyone's situation is different, and I completely understand that we all have different motives. :) )

I'd rather cull a little too early (to some) than watch an animal waste away to nothing. And she has lost over 20g in six weeks...........

Argh...decisions...
 
I don't know squat about BPs, Jennifer. But if you haven't done so already, I'd go poking around cs.com's sister site, faunaclassifieds.com. There are a lot of dedicated BP people there, and you may find more ideas on getting this girl going. Best of luck.
 
Roy Munson said:
I don't know squat about BPs, Jennifer. But if you haven't done so already, I'd go poking around cs.com's sister site, faunaclassifieds.com. There are a lot of dedicated BP people there, and you may find more ideas on getting this girl going. Best of luck.
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Hmm...haven't looked there. I have been lurking around ball-pythons.net though, and I've done everything they suggested. The fact that I have this little girl's clutchmate brother in identical conditions and he's twice her size really leads me to believe that there's no hope for her. It's not like she's an established eater that's just taking a break...I really don't think she's ever eaten since hatching. If she were a bird (which obviously she's not), I'd have culled her weeks ago.

I'll try fauna. Thanks Dean. :cheers:
 
Hmmm...I'm no BP expert...I'm learning as I go along, too. But if she has lost nearly a third of her body weight in just 6 weeks, I would think there is something beyond being "picky" going on here...

I can't tell you if I would or would not cull her, as I am not in your situation. I can tell you that I would support your decision, and would feel easy in knowing you tried everything you could.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make...
 
tyflier said:
Hmmm...I'm no BP expert...I'm learning as I go along, too. But if she has lost nearly a third of her body weight in just 6 weeks, I would think there is something beyond being "picky" going on here...

I can't tell you if I would or would not cull her, as I am not in your situation. I can tell you that I would support your decision, and would feel easy in knowing you tried everything you could.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make...
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I think dehydration is playing a big part in the body weight issue. I would imagine that she'll gain quite a few grams if I force her to soak and get a few good drinks.

If all she had been living on since hatching were her yolk sac and body fat, I don't think a 30% weight loss seems all that odd.

Still just thinking it through...troubleshooting and all that good stuff. Oh, and learning as I go along as well...what a fun crash course in BP husbandry this has been. :rolleyes: At least I still have her happy chunk of a brother.
 
I know you said earlier that "the worst she could do was crawl out" what I did was used a little tub with a lid (airholes too obviously) and put her in that with the lid closed so that she would have to soak and not try to avoid it. She'd freak for about 5 seconds then calm down and blow some bubbles lol she was really cute. Now she loves to bask :grin01: It was like teaching a 2 year old that the water wouldnt hurt him, and then he falls in love with it :grin01:
 
I have to say I agree with the others Jen. I'm sure you know the situation best..
Have you considered or would you consider tube feeding the snake? Admittedly I know nothing about that but maybe that or a grown mouses tail might give her a little something to go with till she gets hungry? :shrugs:
 
texastailfeathers said:
Hmm...haven't looked there. I have been lurking around ball-pythons.net though, and I've done everything they suggested. The fact that I have this little girl's clutchmate brother in identical conditions and he's twice her size really leads me to believe that there's no hope for her. It's not like she's an established eater that's just taking a break...I really don't think she's ever eaten since hatching. If she were a bird (which obviously she's not), I'd have culled her weeks ago.

I'll try fauna. Thanks Dean. :cheers:
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You're welcome. :) But I wouldn't draw the assumptions you do about these snakes based on the fact that they are clutchmates. I've had corn clutches where some took f/t immediately, others took them gradually, some required live, some required scenting, and some refused everything-- all in the same clutch. I'm guessing that this could happen with BPs too. :shrugs:
 
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