unknown genetics gripe & weird statistics

[cobained]

I'm getting frustrated with genetics and morph determinations already! I thought my current pippies proved that one of my clutches last year was fathered by the younger/first snake I bred her to (he was a yearling, only did it once, and no evidence, so i tried another male who bred several times), but then when I went to write that on my records realized it was the OTHER female who was bred to the little guy? So what are the chances of having 5 out of 5 amel stripe babies of my hypo lav x cream stripe last year, and ZERO out of 11 amel/amel stripe babies from the same hypo lav x snow stripe female this year? I learned my lesson last year about using multiple males EVER and about starting with what i thought were known genetics, but find myself in just as much confusion this year!

 

[ceduke]

http://www.corncalc.com/

 

[cobained]

http://www.corncalc.com/

Thanks...I know how to calculate the genetics, I just don't know how you get 100% pass down of amel and stripe genes one year, and 0% the next. Or why I get all hypo/ghost (ultramel/ultramel anery?) babies from a snow.

 

[Pasodama]

I just don't know how you get 100% pass down of amel and stripe genes one year, and 0% the next. Or why I get all hypo/ghost (ultramel/ultramel anery?) babies from a snow.

When dealing with hets, it is luck of the draw. Each ~individual~ baby has a 50/50 chance of inheriting the gene that a parent is het for.
That means you can get a clutch with all homzygous babies, a clutch with no homozygous babies, or a mixed clutch (in any number of ratios) of homozygous and het babies... just depends on the roulette wheel of chance.

 

[bitsy]

Yup. Stats are just the theory. Nature plays it's own tricks on us.

 

[SnakeAround]

When dealing with hets, it is luck of the draw. Each ~individual~ baby has a 50/50 chance of inheriting the gene that a parent is het for.
That means you can get a clutch with all homzygous babies, a clutch with no homozygous babies, or a mixed clutch (in any number of ratios) of homozygous and het babies... just depends on the roulette wheel of chance.

Though the extremes, like all homo or none homo, have less chance of occuring. The closer towards the 50/50 ratio, the more chance it actually occurs.

 

[Pasodama]

Though the extremes, like all homo or none homo, have less chance of occuring. The closer towards the 50/50 ratio, the more chance it actually occurs.

Each het gene, individually, has a 50/50 chance of being passed along ... and each individual baby has a 50/50 chance of inheriting each/any individual het gene.
Homozygous genes, of course, are passed along 100% of the time.

 

[SnakeAround]

I meant that getting all homo for the morp or alll not carrying the morph when you breed hetro x hetro, is way less likely to happen statistically then a 50/50 ratio. Why? Because 'none at all' and 'all' can occur both only in one 'configuration', where as 50/50 can occur in many, many 'configurations'.

 

[cobained]

i understand each allele has a 50/50 chance of being passed down from each parent for each individual hatchling and I know nature does crazy things, but I'm tempted to say I somehow messed something up last year and those aren't his babies either. i would feel pretty comfortable with 11 babies out of a homozygous female to say the male is NOT het for either trait. and on the flip side, the babies are 50% anery, so he passed down his anery gene in exactly the expected frequency.

 

[Susan]

Let me get this straight, you bred a hypo lav with a cream stripe and got 5 amel stripes. Therefore, you must assume the hypo lav is het amel stripe and Lady Luck was madly in love with you. Then you bred the same hypo lav "het amel stripe" to a snow stripe and not a single amel or stripe was produced out of 11 hatchlings. Therefore not only had Lady Luck forsaken you, but has also pissed on your pillow.

While the above scenario is possible, I would more than likely say that the hypo lav is not the parent of the 5 amel stipes from last year (I am assuming it is the father, not the mother) but another amel stripe, and this year, since the hypo lav is NOT het amel or stripe, you would not get any of those offspring in the clutch from the snow stripe.

You mentioned that last year, another male was involved. What morph was that male? And where did you get the cream stripe and could she have retained sperm from the prevous year or even a prior mating last year?

 

[cobained]

Let me get this straight, you bred a hypo lav with a cream stripe and got 5 amel stripes. Therefore, you must assume the hypo lav is het amel stripe and Lady Luck was madly in love with you. Then you bred the same hypo lav "het amel stripe" to a snow stripe and not a single amel or stripe was produced out of 11 hatchlings. Therefore not only had Lady Luck forsaken you, but has also pissed on your pillow.

While the above scenario is possible, I would more than likely say that the hypo lav is not the parent of the 5 amel stipes from last year (I am assuming it is the father, not the mother) but another amel stripe, and this year, since the hypo lav is NOT het amel or stripe, you would not get any of those offspring in the clutch from the snow stripe.

You mentioned that last year, another male was involved. What morph was that male? And where did you get the cream stripe and could she have retained sperm from the prevous year or even a prior mating last year?

Ok so the full story:

Last year i bred 2 females...a virgin creamsicle stripe no known hets I bought as a 10g hatchling, and a proven breeder sold to me as an ultramel anery (but questioned). I wanted to test the ultramel by breeding her with a homo amel snake, and only had a yearling butter stripe male. I witnessed one hookup, with no evidence, and then he could never do it again. I gave up on him, figured he didn't/couldn't do the job and bred her to the hypo lav (they bred several times). Those eggs were laid in a time frame that made either father a possible, and those babies looked JUST like the hypo lavs babies from this year (ultramels/ultramel aneries or hypos/ghosts??). The second female, the cream stripe, was a virgin. After seeing the hypo lavs babies from this year, I assumed he was NOT the father of the amel stripes, but when I went to put that in my notes for last year, realized she was not the female that was bred to the butter stripe too. So while I won't say I never put a different male in with the cream stripe, I only used observed, short period matings and the hypo lav is the only one who bred her (though I'll probably wind up writing this off to i messed up somewhere since the stats are way too off). So this year, thinking the hypo lav was the father of ALL the babies last year, I bred him to a snow stripe (his "proven hets" from 2010), and am only getting what i must presume are ghosts and hypos, in even numbers. So he's definitely het anery, and I find it easier to reconcile the snow stripe being homo hypo than the hypo lav being an ultra lav (though there's been some question to that as well).

And I guess I should also mention that the snow stripe was a virgin I've raised from a hatchling, and due to learning from last year's mistakes, will never put a second male with a female.

(attached pics of last year's babies that look pretty much identical to this years, and a pic of the hypo lav...not a very good pic but i've since sold him and don't have any better ones).

 

[Susan]

Ok so the full story:

Last year i bred 2 females...a virgin creamsicle stripe no known hets I bought as a 10g hatchling, and a proven breeder sold to me as an ultramel anery (but questioned). I wanted to test the ultramel by breeding her with a homo amel snake, and only had a yearling butter stripe male. I witnessed one hookup, with no evidence, and then he could never do it again. I gave up on him, figured he didn't/couldn't do the job and bred her to the hypo lav (they bred several times). Those eggs were laid in a time frame that made either father a possible, and those babies looked JUST like the hypo lavs babies from this year (ultramels/ultramel aneries or hypos/ghosts??). The second female, the cream stripe, was a virgin. After seeing the hypo lavs babies from this year, I assumed he was NOT the father of the amel stripes, but when I went to put that in my notes for last year, realized she was not the female that was bred to the butter stripe too. So while I won't say I never put a different male in with the cream stripe, I only used observed, short period matings and the hypo lav is the only one who bred her (though I'll probably wind up writing this off to i messed up somewhere since the stats are way too off). So this year, thinking the hypo lav was the father of ALL the babies last year, I bred him to a snow stripe (his "proven hets" from 2010), and am only getting what i must presume are ghosts and hypos, in even numbers. So he's definitely het anery, and I find it easier to reconcile the snow stripe being homo hypo than the hypo lav being an ultra lav (though there's been some question to that as well).

And I guess I should also mention that the snow stripe was a virgin I've raised from a hatchling, and due to learning from last year's mistakes, will never put a second male with a female.

(attached pics of last year's babies that look pretty much identical to this years, and a pic of the hypo lav...not a very good pic but i've since sold him and don't have any better ones).

I'm trying to get this straight...

Female cream stripe X ??? produced amel stripes (you don't say what you bred this female to)

Female ultramel anery X male butter stripe and hypo lav produced " babies looked JUST like the hypo lavs babies from this year (ultramels/ultramel aneries or hypos/ghosts??)"

It's most likely the fact that it is early and the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but could you please briefly explain who was bred by who, when and what was produced as I am still confused at to what you paired and what you got from the pairing.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I'm trying to get this straight...

Female cream stripe X ??? produced amel stripes (you don't say what you bred this female to)

Female ultramel anery X male butter stripe and hypo lav produced " babies looked JUST like the hypo lavs babies from this year (ultramels/ultramel aneries or hypos/ghosts??)"

It's most likely the fact that it is early and the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but could you please briefly explain who was bred by who, when and what was produced as I am still confused at to what you paired and what you got from the pairing.

I"m confused as well. I don't see an ultramel anery in the photo's provided.

 

[cobained]

I'm trying to get this straight...

Female cream stripe X ??? produced amel stripes (you don't say what you bred this female to)

Female ultramel anery X male butter stripe and hypo lav produced " babies looked JUST like the hypo lavs babies from this year (ultramels/ultramel aneries or hypos/ghosts??)"

It's most likely the fact that it is early and the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but could you please briefly explain who was bred by who, when and what was produced as I am still confused at to what you paired and what you got from the pairing.

Sorry...it's just confusing all around.

Last year:
cream stripe female x hypo lavender male = amel stripes
"ultramel anery" female x butter stripe= 1 breeding, didn't think it took, so followed by "ultramel anery" female x hypo lavender stripe = babies in the photos in previous post.

This year:
snow stripe female x hypo lavender male=babies in photos below. pics before shedding, first in natual light close up and second is pair of babies in crappy room lighting. I've posted these pics elsewhere on the forum and most people have said ultramel/ultramel anery, but there were not a lot of responses to the thread.

And, hey, thanks for your help guys!

 

[Pasodama]

I meant that getting all homo for the morp or alll not carrying the morph when you breed hetro x hetro, is way less likely to happen statistically then a 50/50 ratio. Why? Because 'none at all' and 'all' can occur both only in one 'configuration', where as 50/50 can occur in many, many 'configurations'.

I see what you mean. You are right.
Just one story ...
There was someone who had bred a female to test her for Amel. When the clutch hatched, there wasn't a single Amel hatchling. So, it was assumed that she was not het Amel. The following year, it was decided to include this female in some breeding plans and, when the clutch hatched, the breeder was surprised to find Amels in the clutch (since he figured she wasn't het Amel due to prior year's breeding. LoL

 

[bitsy]

cream stripe female x hypo lavender male = amel stripes

Minor slightly OT gripe - the Amel-looking offspring of a Creamsicle, would be Creamsicles not Amels. You can't produce a Corn morph from a hybrid.

/PEDANT!

 

[Pasodama]

Since you seem to have some confusion, with the breedings that took place (w/re. to Butter Stripe, etc.), here is a likely scenario:

Creamsicle Stripe female was bred to the Butter Stripe and to the Hypo Lavender. Resulting Hatchlings were Amel Stripes.
Thus, it was the Butter Stripe who was the father, of those hatchlings, and the Hypo Lavender male, who was also bred to her, just missed the window of fertilizing any eggs.
That means that the Hypo Lavender could not have been proven to be het Stripe and would explain why there weren't any Striped hatchlings, this year, when the Snow Stripe female was bred to the Hypo Lavender.

With the male Hypo Lavender not being het Stripe (but proven to be het Anery), you produced hatchlings (last year & this year) of a morph that would be expected...
Hypo Lavender het Anery x Ultramel(?) Anery = Hypo type and Hypo type Anery hatchlings.
Hypo Lavender het Anery x Snow Stripe (homo Hypo?) = Hypo type and Hypo type Anery hatchlings (which are het Stripe).

 

[cobained]

Minor slightly OT gripe - the Amel-looking offspring of a Creamsicle, would be Creamsicles not Amels. You can't produce a Corn morph from a hybrid.

/PEDANT!

Yes, I know they were hybrids, but they are still amelanistic (no black). If I had sold any they would have been marked as cream stripes/hybrids, but alas they were very poor doers with coneheads and didn't make it.

 

[cobained]

Since you seem to have some confusion, with the breedings that took place (w/re. to Butter Stripe, etc.), here is a likely scenario:

Creamsicle Stripe female was bred to the Butter Stripe and to the Hypo Lavender. Resulting Hatchlings were Amel Stripes.
Thus, it was the Butter Stripe who was the father, of those hatchlings, and the Hypo Lavender male, who was also bred to her, just missed the window of fertilizing any eggs.
That means that the Hypo Lavender could not have been proven to be het Stripe and would explain why there weren't any Striped hatchlings, this year, when the Snow Stripe female was bred to the Hypo Lavender.

With the male Hypo Lavender not being het Stripe (but proven to be het Anery), you produced hatchlings (last year & this year) of a morph that would be expected...
Hypo Lavender het Anery x Ultramel(?) Anery = Hypo type and Hypo type Anery hatchlings.
Hypo Lavender het Anery x Snow Stripe (homo Hypo?) = Hypo type and Hypo type Anery hatchlings (which are het Stripe).

I am going to have to agree with this take as the most likely scenario, since it makes the most sense possible with the least amount of weirdness. And I'm can even pretty much convince myself that the ultramel anery female is indeed a ghost, which makes all the babies both years perfectly expected (other than not knowing the snow was carrying hypo, but she is pretty pink!). I just have to say I'm an EXCELLENT record keeper, in fact probably obsessive about it, and have a binder with all my feeding/shed/breeding/acquisition info in it, and it clearly (along with pics i have on my computer) shows the butter only hooked up with the ultramel anery, and was never bred with the cream.

 

[Pasodama]

I just have to say I'm an EXCELLENT record keeper, in fact probably obsessive about it

I can relate.
No human is perfect though and, even with the best (with whatever they are best at), can make mistakes.

However, if you have photos of the Butter Stripe hooked up with the Ultramel(?) Anery (and you are 100% positive he was never with the Cream) ... I'd have to do more thinking since what I outlined made the most sense to me.:shrugs: