Vermiculite is BAD

[Sasheena]

Next year I'm probably going to give my snakes the option of sphagnum moss, or sphagnum PEAT moss (like dirt). This year I gave them vermiculite. Aphrodite, my beautiful normal corn, finished laying but had some vermiculite in her mouth, now I'm dealing with a case of mouth rot. Calypso, my "maybe gravid, maybe not" snake was in her laying box and I pulled her out when I saw she had some vermiculite in her mouth. I left her half in the box, but was trying to swab out the vermiculite, frightened she would get sick too. Of course I wasn't even sure she was gravid, but as soon as I finished swabbing out her mouth, I saw she'd laid a fertile egg! I feel twice as bad as before... bad that I gave her a laying substrate that could cause her illness, WORSE that I was messing with her while she was trying to lay eggs. Hubby's going to the store and when he gets back I'm removing the laying boxes I have left that have vermiculite in them, and will replace them with the peat moss. It's dirty stuff, but it was fine last year for one of my kings as a laying substrate. After the eggs are laid I'll just move them to the vermiculite, which is fine for incubating eggs.

Anyway, thought I would vent to the people who care. *sigh* I feel so bad for Calypso. Rather than continue to move her around, I've just left her on my computer desk, as I would have to move her physically to put her and the egg laying box back in her enclosure (she's half laying on the lid and half laying inside the box, the lid is open, so it's just an impossible situation.

I guess the good news is... she's laying her eggs! 9 days after shedding. 39 days after her first breeding.

 

[Arson]

I thought most people used vermiculite for incubation only...?

 

[Marcel Poots]

I also use moss. I do have some eggs on vermiculite though.. But I have to admit the eggs on moss seem to do better. What is better would you ask? Well, I do not need to rehydrate the substate. With vermiculite I need to add water every few weeks.. Vermiculite is terrible stuff to brake down.. It takes many years. So ingestion is terrible for the snake I think. I hope your snake recovers quickly from mouthrot.

 

[Sasheena]

Well on this thread: Poll 44% of those asked used Vermiculite in their egg laying boxes. So I thought that it was just fine to do. In any case, now I know that it is just not worth the risks. AS far as using moss for the incubation medium, it's so arid here in arizona that there isn't a substrate available that would hold the humidity for 60 days. The vermiculite is available. The Sphagnum I can get my hands on is dirty and comes out smelling very moldy straight out of the bag. I would rather not use it for the eggs.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. She's just beginning to lay her 5th egg. I guess 39 days is all it takes from first introduction to egg laying.

 

[Rich Z]

I always use sphagnum peat moss for the egg laying containers for the females. Once they lay the eggs, the eggs are then transferred over to egg incubating containers filled with dampened vermiculite.

I used to use shoe boxes for the egg incubating containers that had 1/8th inch holes drilled into the lids for some airflow. I did have some problems with the vermiculite drying out when the containers were on the upper shelves and towards the ends of the rows. Those are the areas where it would be warmest and the most airflow around the containers to speed up evaporation.

Well, last year I ran out of boxes with drilled lids and HAD to go to undrilled lids. I figured this would be a grand experiment to see what happened, hoping I wouldn't lose any eggs from lack of airflow. Well, they all hatched out just fine, so apparently the air flow just doesn't matter. And the good news is that NONE of those containers had any problems with the vermiculite drying out. Matter of fact, I am cleaning out those containers to use this year and some of them are STILL damp to the touch, nearly 1 year later.

Live and learn, I guess..... Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

But THIS year I am using ALL containers with undrilled lids. Just one less thing I need to worry about until hatching time arrives....

Oh, one other thing.... try not to breathe the vermiculite dust. It is supposed to be bad stuff when it gets into your lungs.

 

[CornCrazy]

I did not use vermiculite for egg laying containers. I had some of my eggs incubating in it and I HATED IT! I switched all of the eggs (except for 1 cutch) back to sphagnum moss. I will never use vermiculite again!

I hope you snake recovers quickly, Sasheena!

 

[Sasheena]

Thanks for the words of wisdom. Calypso is STILL laying eggs on the top of my desk. She just passed egg #16. all of them look fertile. Pretty good for a snake I didn't think was gravid, or if so, gravid with a bunch of slugs. I am guessing she still has between 4 and 8 more eggs left in her. I haven' wanted to disturb her, since I disturbed her so much at the beginning, so she's been hanging out with me all day. Doesn't seem to really notice or mind, every twenty or thirty minutes there is a new egg.

Thanks again for everyone for "being there". It's been an interesting Mother's day.... watching Calypso laying her eggs. With Athena's 6 and Aphrodite's ten, it's quite a lot of eggs! All laid in the last four days.

 

[kathylove]

I tried vermiculite in the nest boxes a few years ago...

what a mess! They didn't have any health problems, but the females had "beautiful" gold metallic flecks mixed with muddy stuff all over them! Yuck! I didn't use it again after that, at least for nest boxes.

Sphagnum moss has really gone up in price the last few years, so I now use coarse vermiculite for an inch or two on the bottom of the incubation boxes, and cover the eggs with a blanket of moss, instead of using the moss both above and below like I used to. But I really like the fluffy sphagnum for the nest boxes, and the females seem to like it too!

 

[Sasheena]

Thanks Kathy, I won't be using vermiculite in the laying boxes again. I might go back to sphagnum peat moss which I used last year, or see if I can get some decent sphagnum moss for the laying boxes next year. I had a cal king I was convinced wouldn't lay until I gave her the same substrate as last year, so hubby went and got me my Mother's Day present (a big bag of sphagnum PEAT moss). As soon as he got home I put a bunch in her cage, and she immediately started laying... in the vermiculite. I told him it was necessary to get her laying. AFTER she finished the twelve huge eggs, she wallowed in the "dirt" and in her water dish. I've cleaned her water dish twice since then.

In any case, I'm very happy with the results. Calypso's mouth was well cleaned out before she started laying eggs, Aphrodite is responding to treatment, even though I hate to bother her while she is blue, and Athena, the smallest one, is doing very good.

All the corns laid their eggs around 9 days after shedding. Aphrodite laid 10 fertile eggs, no slugs
Athena laid 1 slug early, then 6 apparently fertile eggs and five other slugs. Of those slugs, two looked possibly good, so I incubated them and one is definately bad, and one has veins. Of the six good eggs, all but one now is showing veins.
Calypso laid 21 fertile eggs! A huge number. (for me anyway).

37 to 38 fertile corn eggs this year.

 

[kathylove]

Wal Mart garden centers have med bags...

of the fluffy sphagnum (for $4 something, I think). It should be enough for just a few clutches, but not nearly enough for larger breeders. I order mine in bales from a local nursery ($32 per bale).

 

[Sasheena]

Good News!

Aphrodite Shed last night. Every day I've been swabbing her mouth out (best I could) with some diluted hydrogen peroxide before giving her some diluted pedialyte. I couldn't get to a vet, and this was the best I could do in the way of home remedies for her "mouth rot". Last night she seemed no better and no worse (every day before she looked worse), and this morning the big swelling seemed to have come off with her shed skin. She's been "perkier" and "perkier" every day since she laid her eggs, but this morning she was seemingly back to her old self. I offered her a mouse but it was too large. When I get home from work I'll offer her a rat pinkie, or a few mouse fuzzies for a small meal. I'm so glad that she appears so much better. It's been a real bummer to treat her, not wanting to hurt her, but still wanting to be able to help her to feel better. But she's doing great.

I've candled two clutches of eggs, Aphrodites and Athenas... Aphrodite's ten are all full of veins, Athena's 5 best looking eggs are full of veins. One of the two slugs I kept due to being "maybe good" seemed to develop veins, but then quickly went bad. Another of the "good" eggs has still not developed veins, but I've heard it can take up to a week so I haven't given up yet. The 21 eggs that Calypso laid haven't been candled but they look great still!

I love when snakeys hatch, but it's sometimes nerve wracking getting up to that point. (and after too).

Anyway, thought I would share my good news.

 

[mike panic]

I use Spagnum moss in my egg laying containers and straight perlite in my incubating shoe boxes. I did the vermiculite thing for a few years but the eggs were always moldy in the boxes. Since I switched over to perlite, my hatch rate shot way up and I rarely lose a good egg. I use dampened paper towel lightly draped over the clutch. The second I see any sign of mold, I dust the eggs using anti fungal foot powder. I have been doing this preventively with no ill effects for years and it is a good way of controlling mold. Best of luck to you.

BTW, I use a very fine makeup brush to dust the eggs. VERY LIGHTLY

 

[kathylove]

I don't use Perlite. I have heard reports of people leaving hatchlings in the hatch box a few days and finding them dead. They suspected the Perlite causing a problem with the babies.

Have you left babies on the Perlite for at leat a few days (how long?) and have you had any problems?

Thanks!

 

[mike panic]

Hi Kathy. When I was poking around asking about perlite, I heard and was told the same thing. I have left them in there for a few days(three or four maybe) and have never seen a single scratch on any of them. Although I usually take them out immediately and transfer them into a pre shed box. They stay there until they shed. I like it. It has FAR better air flow under the eggs, its way cleaner and visibility is good as well. Thanks

 

[Sasheena]

Well I've continued to have some interesting experiences with vermiculite this year.

At the moment I have 5 boxes of eggs. One is only temporary, as it doesn't really close too well. My results in each:

Box #1: 10 Corn eggs, all in good shape, no collapsing eggs except the one on the top of the small cluster of four eggs. That one has a slight dimple, but otherwise they're great. Removed a piece of moss that was getting hairy (it was a vermiculite/sphagnum lay box). All ten show veins when candled.

Box #2: 6 good Corn eggs, two slugs thrown out that looked like they MIGHT be good. All 6 eggs, while half the size of the ones in box #2 are mostly showing good veins. One still hasn't shown any veins)

Box #3: 6 good corn eggs, looking great. All have veins.

Box #4: 15 good corn eggs, all showing veins. This is the box that doesn't close properly and that will be replaced in a week or so. The vermiculite in this box is the driest of all the boxes, but the eggs in this box seem to be the plumpest of all, and show the strongest veins. *shrug*. My guess is that teh humidity is fine if they don't show signs of collapsing. AGain, these will go into a more secure egg box once I'm sure that one of my females isn't going to lay any eggs. Or I might make a new box.

Box #5: 12 kingsnake eggs (the size of chicken eggs). This is the most moist box, and also the one with the most collapsed eggs. I was worried about the collapsing egg on the top of the pile of eggs, so I increased the moisture, but then some of the eggs on the bottom of the pile seemed to be getting too moist, so I left the lid off to dry it up some. Today I left a damp paper towel over the top of the clutch to see if I could re-hydrate that top egg, but I'm afraid it might be a goner. The rest of the eggs need to be less moist, the top one more. **FRUSTRATION**. The most frustrating thing is that the egg that is collapsed DOES show red veins when candled. I just hope I can save the little one inside.

Last year I got a little bit of mold on one of my kingsnake eggs, so I sprayed some anti-fungal spray powder on my hands, rubbed them together so there wasn't much left, and then carefully rubbed the moldy spot on the egg with my finger, trusting/hoping that there was enough stuff on my finger to battle the fungus, but not enough to penetrate the egg shell. That spot lost the mold and turned dark brown. When the baby snake hatched, there was a double layer of shell in that location, which was either the cause of the mold, or a result of it.