What is my Peach?

[Josua]

Hi everyone,
a couple years ago I read on this forum about the "mystery peach" corns and I thought they looked awesome. I am a great fan of caramels and lavenders, so what better than to start my own "little" project.
I read in an other topic about the peach corn listed on Ian's Vivarium, which is a snake of mine. I thought I had everything figured out, but this year I start scratching my head again..... It is going to be a lot of boring text, but I will try to be as detailed as possible in the hopes someone here can help me figure this out.

I will start at the beginning.
My project started in 2007 with a male "hypo lavender" which was bred my Rich Z and got indirectly to me. I just bought it without any background info, but he later turned out to be het. anery A.
The female I used was a Motley het. caramel and amel (unknown breeder) and proved out in 2011 to be a genetic motley striped.
I kept back 2.2 'Normals' which looked the nicest *almost hypo-ish*
2.1 looked more yellow (by the poss. het. caramel maybe) and female number 2 looked less yellow.
Here are recent pics of Female number 1:

In 2009 I put pair 1 and pair 2 together and got babys from both of them.
Pair 2 did produce hypos / lavender / motleys and combos, but no caramels.
From pair 1 I did get caramels, next to all the other combos, and I also bred a baby I thougt to be a Hypo lavender caramel motley, which I called the Peach Motley since I had read that name on this forum. No one in my country produced this, so again I had no comparisson, but this male was way to colorfull to be just a hypo lavender motley.
Here he is now (I can't find any baby pics he was a lot brighter as baby and a yearling off course)

I also kept 0.2 "caramel motleys", one really light almost looking like an amber motley but different and one really dark brownish female.
Both of them were nothing like any caramel motleys I had seen, and in the hope that they were het. lavender, I kept them *thank god*
The dark one today:

The ligther one:

 

[Josua]

Togehter:

In 2010 I repeated the same breedings with the 2007 adult normals.
I thought about changing males, but I really wanted to make another peach, so I made the same pairs.
Again, pair 2 did not produce any caramels, but I did get a nice male 'hypo lavender motley poss. het. caramel' which was pretty colorfull. Almost like a pale version of the 2009 peach motley male, so I kept it thinking the color would be the visual het. caramel.
Here he is today:

From pair 1 I was lucky again, because I got a peach female (the one on Ians Vivarium). That was all I kept, but earlier this year I had a chance to get 0.1 lavender which is a lot darker and has thicker borders.
Here is she as a baby, really pink / orange, next to an amber sibling, before the first shed:

And next to a Hypo Motley:

And at about 6 months old:

And today:

 

[Josua]

And here is her sister, a lavender female:

And together. (even with the size difference, you can see the smaller female being a lot darker and with thicker borders around the sadles):

This year in 2011 I did 2 breedings.
I took the male from pair 1 with the female from pair 2.
Again no caramels, so the female proved to me not to be het. caramel.
I did get a strange looking motley in this clutch. Both color and pattern are different. Maybe a strawberry motley???

The other 2011 breeding was the 2009 'peach motley' male to his 2007 normal mother, in the hopes to produce more peach motleys.
I got 2 nice surprises. Both parents turned out to be het. amel and I got striped babys, so the original motley het. butter female (which I don't have anymore) turned out to be a genetic motley striped. Nice!
The strange thing is that I did not get 1 caramel or caramel combo. With over 20 eggs, the chance of that is very small if they both were to be het. caramels....
I did get a lot of nice morphs though, including a VERY colorfull 'lavender' male.

Next to a 'normal' lavender female sibling:

And some other siblings.
Male opal / hypo:

Male opal hypo motley thingy:

(hypo) lavender motley:

And last a hypo striped I think:

I was hoping to prove the peach motley genetics (hypo and caramel) out with an unrelated amber motley female also, but she did not gave me any eggs.

So, what is going on here (or did you guys fall a sleep already )
I read in a peach topic from Walter that he and Rich brainstormed about the idea that Strawberry was playing a part in the extreme rich colors in lavenders which create the orangy peach look.
That could be very possible, the only downside is I have no proven strawberrys to test my animals (Strawberry is not really known here).
I do have a lot of snakes from this project, but it is hard to figure out what to breed to what to test everything out.

Does anyone have some thoughts?
Or maybe some pictures of morphs like "strawberry lavender" and "Strawberry caramels" to compare to mine snakes?

Thanks all,
Josua Hannink from www.Future-Morphs.com

 

[Walter Smith]

Joshua,
From what I gather by reading your post here, the Caramel trait has nothing to do with the Peach Corns you have produced correct???

The reason I ask is, and the reason for my post in my personal forum was, ALOT of people thought/think Peach Corns are the combination of Hypo + Lavender + Caramel and this is not the case.

Rich Hume has found in his line, this holds to be true, that something else is causing the PEACH coloration in his line and is NOT linked to Caramel at all. I do not believe the term PEACH should be linked to animals that are homo for the Hypo + Lavender + Caramel traits for this reason.

As mentioned in my peach discussion on my personal forum, I have bred a Hypo het Lavender Caramel Bloodred X (Rich Hume) Hypo Lavender het Caramel for two years running and have NEVER produced a snake that even resembles what we have seen as labled PEACH.

My breedings of these do produce Hypo Lavenders, Ambers & Lavender Ambers........period. Nothing at all the coloration of a Peach as you can see in the image.........Lavender Amber

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Susan]

I agree with Walter, that the "Peach" lavenders have absolutely nothing to do with the caramel gene. I've seen and produced both highly orange colored lavenders and more "typical" lavenders from parents known to not carry the caramel gene. What causes this still needs to be determined. Strawberry may be the answer for some, red factor/red coat may be another answer, or something totally unknown. I'm still not sure why snows and ghosts vary from one extreme to another. And from what I understand, no one else is 100% sure yet either. It might be interesting to breed a coral ghost or a salmon snow to a lavender and see what turns up down the road.

 

[Rich Z]

Heck, I used to get that kind of variation (and MUCH MUCH more) in the Lavender projects I was doing quite often, but never did nail down what was going on. When I specifically bred Caramel and Lavender together, the resulting offspring later on down the road just muddied up the waters even more. And it didn't help matters much that Anerythrism was thrown into the mix as well.

I never did get a handle on that ruby red eye trait, neither. First time I ever saw it was in the Lavenders, but over time it seemed to spread to other lines, yet I could never produce them by TRYING specifically to get that trait. I remember breeding Ghosts that had ruby red eyes as youngsters together and NONE of the offspring had that trait. So obviously there was another controlling factor I hadn't isolated.

Yeah, sometimes I miss the challenges of this stuff. But honestly, I take a whole lot less Excedrin than I used to do because of the headaches it gave me.

 

[NiklasTyreso]

Does anyone have some thoughts?

You do have some rocking colourful lavender combinations!

If I were you I’d breed the best to the best for a couple of generations to se if the results become predictable.
If that is the case you could outbreed to totally unrelated animals and use those offspring’s to prove or disprove a single genetic cause.

It might be a trait that have to be bred selectively, not as a single recessive. The peach colour might depend of a whole bunch of genes. Also, even if there is one gene giving peach colour, then there might be several other genes that reduce peach colour that might destroy attempts to breed it as a single recessive. Then selective breeding is the only option.

A grandfather to one of my anerys was hatched as a normal anery aztec but developed a whole lot of beige colour over the grey ground colour, making most of the adult snake beige. I have never seen or heard of that trait again.

Niklas
Sweden

 

[Josua]

Joshua,
From what I gather by reading your post here, the Caramel trait has nothing to do with the Peach Corns you have produced correct???

Well, the 2009 'peach motley' seemed to have no caramel in it, but I still want to breed it to an unrelated caramel morph to see what happens.
The 2010 'peach' female is not bred off course, but she will be ready in 2012.

ALOT of people thought/think Peach Corns are the combination of Hypo + Lavender + Caramel and this is not the case.

I was one of those people

Rich Hume has found in his line, this holds to be true, that something else is causing the PEACH coloration in his line and is NOT linked to Caramel at all.

That is probally right, now I just have to figure out what is that cause.
Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Josua]

I've seen and produced both highly orange colored lavenders and more "typical" lavenders from parents known to not carry the caramel gene. What causes this still needs to be determined.

When I look back, I also used my 'original' Hypo lavender het. anery (which started my project) to breed to Hypo het. lavender and Lavender het. hypo in I think 2007 and 2008 or so.
Back then there were not a lot of Hypo Lavenders here, but mine usually stood out of the rest. I just thought I was lucky, but who knows something else was going on.

 

[Josua]

You do have some rocking colourful lavender combinations!

If I were you I’d breed the best to the best for a couple of generations to se if the results become predictable.
If that is the case you could outbreed to totally unrelated animals and use those offspring’s to prove or disprove a single genetic cause.

Niklas
Sweden

Thanks Niklas.
I am planning to do a lot of selectieve breedings with both "peach" animals and other morphs from this linage.
But I also want to cross the Peach motley to other unrelated animals to see what happens and off course to see if the peach color is transferred in one generation.