What to do with kinked babies...

[jessmarie]

I recently just wholesaled the last of my healthy corn babies from this year. Now, I'm sitting here with all my keepers, a few that I couldn't wholesale, and about 4 kinked babies.

The 4 kinks are varied in their issues, but all of them are eating, pooping, shedding, etc. fine. In fact, these babies seem to be (mostly) thriving.
I can't bring myself to kill them off. Lol. But I also am not comfortable selling them as I cannot attest to the damage the kink can/will cause in the future.

2 of the kinks are at the base of their tails...one of those seems to have a stunted tail as well and is the more severe of the two kinks; the other you can barely tell the kink is there anymore...just kind of a harder spot.
Another kink is a slight dent mid back. This one I'm a little less worried about because it can't really affect breeding or pooping, but I don't know what it will do if/when she was ever gravid. The last kink isn't so much a kink as it is just a lumpy feeling snake...it's like you can feel some of his ribs poking out further than others.

In any case, these babies all hatched out June/July this year and have made it this far healthily. I've thought about offering them up for free on the local reptile pages, but wasn't sure what that said about me as a breeder. I know a lot of breeders will cull their less-than-perfect babies, but I just couldn't. I also don't keep any kings or other snake eaters to use them for. Though, to be honest, I had considered finding someone who had young kings to use for feeders.

So, do I post them for free as pets on the local pages and not worry about what it will say about me as a breeder?
Do I try and offer them as feeders for kings and, again, not worry about what it says about me?

I really don't want to have kinked pets in my collection since I breed. They'd just eat food and cause me to do more work without any gain from it. What do you all do with babies that have minor kinks that are thriving?

 

[MysticExotics]

Because I have seen people take free kinked babies, intended for pets, and grow them up and breed them anyways, I would feed them to a kingsnake before I would give them to someone.
As a breeder, my name is on every animal that leaves my home. I do not want to have someone selling babies from a kinked snake that came from me. If it ends up being genetic, that reflects poorly on my name.

Also, as you mentioned, you do not know if it will cause problems for them down the road. Yes, they are thriving now, but it doesn't always mean there isn't something wrong going on inside.

I have not had any with deformities so far (knock on wood), but that is what I would do if I did.

It is a difficult decision we have to make as breeders.

 

[jessmarie]

Because I have seen people take free kinked babies, intended for pets, and grow them up and breed them anyways, I would feed them to a kingsnake before I would give them to someone.
As a breeder, my name is on every animal that leaves my home. I do not want to have someone selling babies from a kinked snake that came from me. If it ends up being genetic, that reflects poorly on my name.

Also, as you mentioned, you do not know if it will cause problems for them down the road. Yes, they are thriving now, but it doesn't always mean there isn't something wrong going on inside.

Those are exactly my thoughts... So would you advertise them as snakes for feeders or would you just approach a king breeder and talk to them about it?

 

[daddio207]

This is one of those decisions that needs to be made before getting into breeding.
I would find good homes for them. You gave them life so give them a chance to live life and thrive with a new family. We can only speculate what might happen in their future but right now they are thriving and should be allowed to continue to do so.
It will say that you are a breeder that values all life that you produce. You are breeding for the love of the hobby and not for status or financial gain.

A difficult decision for sure.. Wish you the best with it

 

[Dragonling]

I have not had any with deformities so far (knock on wood), but that is what I would do if I did.

Oof, knock on wood indeed. You know how Murphy is with expensive morphs...

 

[jessmarie]

My intent was to deal with it as it came. Haha. Poor planning on my part. Initially, I didn't expect them to survive. I just don't want to sully my name as a breeder by being willing to give them to people as pets. But I also don't know what it says about me as a breeder to offer them as feeders. And I can't just kill them if they're able to survive. I'm really tempted to get ahold of a pair of young kings to offer them to. But I don't want the kings to be solely snake eaters.

 

[Zeina]

If I lived near you I would pick one up and take it home with me. I don't breed and don't plan on it, I just love my snake pets. I would be devastated to feed them to something, I couldn't do it lol that is such a tough decision!

 

[MysticExotics]

This is one of those decisions that needs to be made before getting into breeding.
I would find good homes for them. You gave them life so give them a chance to live life and thrive with a new family. We can only speculate what might happen in their future but right now they are thriving and should be allowed to continue to do so.
It will say that you are a breeder that values all life that you produce. You are breeding for the love of the hobby and not for status or financial gain.

A difficult decision for sure.. Wish you the best with it

Choosing to cull kinked babies does not mean that their life is not valued. For one, no one knows the effect the kinks have on the snake, and whether or not the snake is suffering due to the deformities.

It also does not automatically mean that breeders that do so are only in it for status or financial gain.

There are breeders who wholesale their perfectly healthy babies to people who feed them off to other creatures.

There are breeders who produce clutches just to be feeders.

By choosing to breed, this is a decision that must be made. You are responsible for those babies. It's not a fun decision.

Giving them away to be pets is fine, but they don't always end up just as pets. There was a thread on her a few years back, where a gal had a kinked snake that was given to her because of the kinks. She ended up breeding that snake (actually, I think she had two, and bred both of them), and selling the babies.

As far as I know, no one has actually done any testing to try and decipher whether the kinks are genetic or incubation related. I believe both can be factors, but without testing, it is irresponsible to breed a kinked snake to sell the babies. That is someone who does not value their life and is in it for financial gain, IMO.

Two morphs that seem to have more kinking than others are Lavenders and (Pied) Bloodreds. Who knows if it is a genetic thing in the lines, or maybe they are more sensitive to incubation temps? Another possible factor is that many lines have so many generations of pairing siblings together, that it can weaken the line, and cause problems, sometimes kinked babies.

A breeder sells 1.1 pair of babies to someone, who in turn grows them up, pairs them, and sells 1.1 pairs of babies, etc, and the cycle continues.
I focus on outcrossed lines for this reason, in all of my species.

Will I pair related snakes together? Yes, but I make sure I know the background, and know that they do not have several generations of related pairings.

Jessmarie, it is up to you what you do with the babies. Being a responsible breeder sometimes means making difficult decisions.
This is not a topic that gets discussed publicly that often, but it should be discussed.

 

[daddio207]

Jessmarie, it is up to you what you do with the babies. Being a responsible breeder sometimes means making difficult decisions.
This is not a topic that gets discussed publicly that often, but it should be discussed.

My response was specific to her situation. Not a response in general as most of yours is.

She stated;

"I can't bring myself to kill them off."

"What do you all do with babies that have minor kinks that are thriving?"

"So, do I post them for free as pets on the local pages and not worry about what it will say about me as a breeder?"

What you highlighted in bold was also specific to her and not a general statement.

IN GENERALITY your response brings up good points for discussion most of which I don't disagree with.

 

[MysticExotics]

Thank you.
Some people get really sensitive about the idea of culling kinked babies.

I do not have a problem with offering them free as a pet, if you know the person will never breed the animal.
I would not offer them up to the general public, because some will take advantage of a free/cheap snake to use for breeding.

When I say that I do not want it to reflect poorly on my name, I mean that I do not want to have deformed animals going out, being bred, especially not knowing if it is genetic or not, and then that person selling them as from my line.

I focus on selling healthy animals, and while they might be surviving, I would not consider a deformed animal as "healthy", because I do not know what is going on inside.

Jessmarie has a valid concern, and neither answer is necessarily right or wrong.
My choice is to cull those animals, and I know some people are very much against that.

Sorry, Jessmarie, I missed your question about advertising them as feeders or finding someone that has kingsnakes.
I have kingsnakes, partially for this reason.

You probably do not want to advertise them as feeders, because some people are very sensitive about it, and you might get negative backlash about it.
I would ask around, quietly, who might have kingsnakes, or other creatures that eat snakes, and send them a private message to see if they would like them for feeders.
Your best bet is to find someone local, otherwise you'd have to ship them.

 

[MysticExotics]

Oof, knock on wood indeed. You know how Murphy is with expensive morphs...

Yes, Murphy can be cruel.

My intent was to deal with it as it came. Haha. Poor planning on my part. Initially, I didn't expect them to survive. I just don't want to sully my name as a breeder by being willing to give them to people as pets. But I also don't know what it says about me as a breeder to offer them as feeders. And I can't just kill them if they're able to survive. I'm really tempted to get ahold of a pair of young kings to offer them to. But I don't want the kings to be solely snake eaters.

I don't think it would look bad if you gave them to someone you know would not breed them, to be pets.
Offering them as feeders, like I mentioned earlier, is done all the time, just not publicly. And it is not just deformed animals. Some animals are snake eaters, and they have to get their food somewhere.

I raise adorable fancy mice for mine, mostly to have the day old pinkies for my new hatchlings. Yes, it sucks to feed them off, but they are a food source for my snakes.

My Kings (MBK's) are not solely snake eaters. They primarily eat f/t mice, but I will feed them hatchlings if needed. So far, it has only been D.I.E. babies, or an occasional baby that I cannot get to eat, that starts deteriorating, but if I ended up with deformed babies, they would get those as well.

I had one MBK that knew when it was hatchling season, and he would get anxious when they would start hatching. (He came to me as having been fed non surviving hatchlings).
I remember one year, I didn't have any hatchlings, and he seemed upset about that.

If you are going to breed, it might not be a bad idea to pick up a Kingsnake or two.

 

[Nanci]

I do various things. If a baby is severely kinked, fused to itself even, or has a head deformity, I feed it to a king snake. It's over SOOO incredibly fast. This has only happened to me a couple times. (I don't believe freezing is humane, but don't want to get into that argument again...) I have found pet homes with friends (usually for their kids) for otherwise healthy babies with minor kinks. I have kept one badly kinked snake, Krinkle, who lived a couple years.

A kingsnake is also nice to have around to eat infertile eggs. Mine love them.

There was a post a while ago looking for culled hatchlings to feed baby cobras. You could probably find it if you dig around.

 

[dave partington]

The 4 kinks are varied in their issues, but all of them are eating, pooping, shedding, etc. fine. In fact, these babies seem to be (mostly) thriving.
I can't bring myself to kill them off. Lol. But I also am not comfortable selling them as I cannot attest to the damage the kink can/will cause in the future.

[omitted the rest of your post]

I really don't want to have kinked pets in my collection since I breed. They'd just eat food and cause me to do more work without any gain from it. What do you all do with babies that have minor kinks that are thriving?

As others have suggested, kingsnake food. Kingsnakes will also take care of uneaten prey/refused meals of your breeder stock, heck, they'll even down a pile of pinkies. handy dispos-alls they are. Nice pets too. As are milksnakes.

I've held back some kinked babies over the years, because they were the target morph from programs aka breeding projects, but dangitall they had some kinks. Kinked males, well, if it's the target, keep it if its feeding, wrap that project up to completion in 18 months with the right feeding regeime. Kinked females is a different matter. It really depends on how much severity of kinking is present. If its just a couple of kinks, then she may be worth power feeding or munson plan feeding or whatever you call that, to get her up to the SIZE (tossing out the 3/3/3 rule) where she can pass rat Weanlings several times to make sure she's all stretchy down there, so she can pass a messload of eggs.

But what causes the kinking to begin with? And there are numerous reasons for this, genetics, a random convergence of uncompatible genes colliding together?
In a hurry to get the babies out of the egg as soon as possible resulting in malformation from incubating too high/fast? In a rush?
Eggs laid in the aspen and dried out and rehydrated and then hurried along?
Other factors? Not a law against going slow unless you're on a highway.

And to that end, I have had kinked adult females which I waited until they were 420 grams to breed, passing weaned rats several times, which went on to pump out 28+ fertile eggs with no problem.

So IMHO I say this, take a look and consider it all before making any brash decisions. There are persons who like having a pet with disabilities. I have always given away mine for the cost of shipping, or directly for free, when they were feeding fine and did not fit into the direction I was headed

 

[nancyg]

Wasn't there a thread a while back about a zoo needing food for baby cobras? the idea was that it would be a good way to put babies from Stargazer test breedings to good use. Or any hatchling that would be culled.

You might try contacting a local zoo and offering them as feeders - this does not reflect poorly on you as a breeder - It will say that you are a "Herp enthusiast who is concerned with education and care regarding all herps."(tm) And you can say that you donate to the zoo/herp education. (now who's looking good, eh?)
You didn't intentionally produce these guys, but it's a way to make sure they go to a good cause, and you can ask the zoo to not give out your name. Snakes in general do not have a good rep so I bet the herp keepers will understand and be glad of all the support they can get.

Schools or educational (museums?) programs might take a healthy but kinked snake.

Given the amount of inbreeding that happens with corns (certain genes originated with one snake - the Palmetto is a recent example ) I think selection against the possibility of genetic problems is pretty important. - I think I would consider giving a kinked baby to someone I knew (not random person) But that trick only works once or twice, and then you have to find new friends that don't have snakes yet.

Too bad there isn't a way to spay/neuter tiny hatchlings - though I did find out from my vet that you can spay lizards (usually the treatment for an egg bound animal) he's really neat.

Regarding the source of kinks... I recall there was a discussion here a while back regarding incubation temperatures and the possibility that higher temps might be causing kinks - (particularly in Lavenders?? not sure?) I think some people were going to see how temps affected possible kinking in clutches from the same pairings.

Nancy

 

[jessmarie]

So. I'm considering offering them for free. ..would it be wrong or overly cautious of me to have the new owner sign something in regards to either agreeing not to breed or at least documenting my advice against it? Kind of like a liability waiver?

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[Jereme]

So. I'm considering offering them for free. ..would it be wrong or overly cautious of me to have the new owner sign something in regards to either agreeing not to breed or at least documenting my advice against it? Kind of like a liability waiver?

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The only thing about a document is it is only worth the honor the 2 signing it. I used to breed show chihuahua, yes I handle them in the ring and everything. All my dogs were AKC, and the puppies of any puppy I sold could only be AKC registered if I sign a special box. On more then 1 occasions i sold puppies as pet only and found that person selling puppies from those puppies they got from me as CKC registered. Point is Signing a paper only holds value that the two parties give it.

I think the zoo thing is a great idea. The babies I got from gazer testing all went a king breeder. On that note my gazer tester male has 2 minor kinks he fathered 46 babies and in month that they were with me I never found any kinks on them.

Wish you well! Never easy to make such decisions.

 

[jessmarie]

I don't care that they breed the kinked babies...that's their prerogative. But. I don't want them coming back to me 4 years from now and complaining that I gave them a flawed snake and that it caused issues with their breeding. The document would simply serve to basically save my reputation if a time like that ever came. So that if they did complain, privately or publically, I could reference that document and save my name.

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[Jereme]

There you go that's going be the trick. That more like a disclaimer, but that works and probly never come back if you have them sign that, well not to complain at least.

 

[jessmarie]

There you go that's going be the trick. That more like a disclaimer, but that works and probly never come back if you have them sign that, well not to complain at least.

That's kind of what I'm thinking.

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[dave partington]

Given the amount of inbreeding that happens with corns (certain genes originated with one snake - the Palmetto is a recent example ) I think selection against the possibility of genetic problems is pretty important.

Too bad there isn't a way to spay/neuter tiny hatchlings - though I did find out from my vet that you can spay lizards (usually the treatment for an egg bound animal) he's really neat.

Regarding the source of kinks... I recall there was a discussion here a while back regarding incubation temperatures and the possibility that higher temps might be causing kinks - (particularly in Lavenders?? not sure?) I think some people were going to see how temps affected possible kinking in clutches from the same pairings.

Nancy

Without inbreeding, there would be no morphs, no Localities, no species, no AKC breeds, & so forth, of both plants and animals. The reason any of these look the way they do is inbreeding. Trying to blame a single surface color gene for babies being kinked seems a little far fetched.