Wild Caught NE Alabama Corns !!

[Walter Smith]

Here are two more NE Alabama Corns that were found over the last couple weeks. I found one Mother's Day morning and just last weekend a friend found and brought me the other.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[SnakesRule1234]

Oh wow! I love their colour... so dark. Wish there were CB normals like this.

 

[Walter Smith]

Oh wow! I love their colour... so dark. Wish there were CB normals like this.

There will be if I could ever stumble across a female. I've found 3 so far and all males... what tha:shrugs:

I also did this breeding with one the wild caught males.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[mynamesrick]

Wow i wish there were wild corns way up here!

 

[TandJ]

Hey Walter..

Is that the same area as the Golden ?? I think you know what I am refering to with the golden reference.. But that back ground colour is so silver... I wonder what it would look like with the wash through it. Cool Bro...


Was thinking too... Is it possible that the females are in hiding? Would they be carrying eggies ( the locals )...???

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Nanci]

They are so metallic! I wonder why no females. My one WC is a male, too. I guess females stay home and mind their business, and males go out looking for love and get picked up.

 

[Walter Smith]

Hey Walter..

Is that the same area as the Golden ?? I think you know what I am refering to with the golden reference.. But that back ground colour is so silver... I wonder what it would look like with the wash through it. Cool Bro...


Was thinking too... Is it possible that the females are in hiding? Would they be carrying eggies ( the locals )...???

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Hey Tim,
Na, I'm quite a good ways from where the "Golden" was found, but I do love the "Butterscotch" coloration of these around here. I'm keeping my fingers crossed to find a female. I would love to reproduce a bunch of babies displaying this natural color then start adding other traits to it.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[TandJ]

You might be a distance away Walter, but those definantly show a lot of potential.. Sometimes I wish I was closer to corn habitat, sometimes it is much better that I am not.. I want to see some posted pics of the hatchlings..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Walter Smith]

I want to see some posted pics of the hatchlings..

You bettcha Tim.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[KJUN]

I've had WC corns from various localities ("including "Alabama Corns" but I never knew where with more specific details) over the past 15 or so years. I've bred them off and on, but , SADLY, the babies are always much brighter and "prettier" than the original WC ones. It seems that dark is , again SADLY, due to some flavor of phenotypic plasticity instead of genetics. ...but that's already been discussed in great detail on other threads.

The main thing is CONGRATS WALTER! All we find here are Kisatchie cornsnakes. Poor, poor us.......

 

[RavenSpirit360]

Very pretty snakes

 

[Walter Smith]

The main thing is CONGRATS WALTER! All we find here are Kisatchie cornsnakes. Poor, poor us.......

Thanks man.

I have a question for ya KJ.
I know you have done extensive research on Kisatchies and I was wondering, if the Kisatchies are a sub-species according to the taxa (Elaphe Guttatus Slowinskii) and are NOT (Pantherophis Guttatus), then they aren't cornsnakes at all right?

I know I've heard breeding any cornsnake (Pantherophis Guttatus) to a Kisatchie would result in Hybrid neonates, but the term Kisatchie CORNSNAKE is always used, as you did above.

Shouldn't they be considered Kisatchie Ratsnakes as are the Emoryi, another sub-species of the Cornsnake????

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[KJUN]

It's Elaphe slowinksii OR Elaphe guttata slowinskii depending on the citation you follow. Both use the common name "Slowinski's Cornsnake." (The older reference called them pure cornsnakes - not even a different subspecies.) They were called "Kisatchie" a decade or more before they were published under "Slowinski's" and I think Joe was too much of an careless dillweed to have anything named "in honor" of him.

Anyway, that's why I avoid using Slowinski's as much as I can, but the common names have ALWAYS been "something" cornsnake - at least since they stopped being called "intergrades with Emory ratsnakes." The approved common name is "Slowinski's cornsnake." Calling it a "Slowinski's ratsnake" would imply a completely different population of animals - like an imaginary Elaphe obsoleta slowinskii or something. I wish I could answer WHY they choose cornsnake over ratsnake, but they did. I assume it is because the type specimen is MUCH more similar to guttata than to emoryi. If the type specimen would have been from Texas instead of Louisiana, maybe it would have been officially named "Slowinskii's ratsnake." However, I doubt it. If anything, I suspect it SHOULD be the Emory ratsnake that is thought of as having been misnamed...and not the "Kisatchie" cornsnake by any of its nicknames. :shrugs: If you remember, "Western cornsnake" is an older name that is synonymous with "Emory ratsnake." By the way, Emory ratsnakes have been considered a different species since the 1970's. As much as I agree or disagree with that nomenclature - it has stood the test of time.

I've, of course, ignored the whole genera argument of Elaphe versus Pantherophis versus Pituophis since it is not relevant here and now. I didn't do that to confuse any third party readers.

So, the BRIEF answer is, "Well, it just is called a cornsnake whether it seems to make any sense or not. Approved common names don't HAVE to make sense and follow orderly rules the way scientific names do." ...and yep, those babies resulting from the cross of a guttata X slownskii are still hybrids regardless of the common name or taxonomic tag you put on it. :sidestep:

KJ

Thanks man.

I have a question for ya KJ.
I know you have done extensive research on Kisatchies and I was wondering, if the Kisatchies are a sub-species according to the taxa (Elaphe Guttatus Slowinskii) and are NOT (Pantherophis Guttatus), then they aren't cornsnakes at all right?

I know I've heard breeding any cornsnake (Pantherophis Guttatus) to a Kisatchie would result in Hybrid neonates, but the term Kisatchie CORNSNAKE is always used, as you did above.

Shouldn't they be considered Kisatchie Ratsnakes as are the Emoryi, another sub-species of the Cornsnake????

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

It's Elaphe slowinksii OR Elaphe guttata slowinskii depending on the citation you follow. Both use the common name "Slowinski's Cornsnake." (The older reference called them pure cornsnakes - not even a different subspecies.) They were called "Kisatchie" a decade or more before they were published under "Slowinski's" and I think Joe was too much of an careless dillweed to have anything named "in honor" of him.

Anyway, that's why I avoid using Slowinski's as much as I can, but the common names have ALWAYS been "something" cornsnake - at least since they stopped being called "intergrades with Emory ratsnakes." The approved common name is "Slowinski's cornsnake." Calling it a "Slowinski's ratsnake" would imply a completely different population of animals - like an imaginary Elaphe obsoleta slowinskii or something. I wish I could answer WHY they choose cornsnake over ratsnake, but they did. I assume it is because the type specimen is MUCH more similar to guttata than to emoryi. If the type specimen would have been from Texas instead of Louisiana, maybe it would have been officially named "Slowinskii's ratsnake." However, I doubt it. If anything, I suspect it SHOULD be the Emory ratsnake that is thought of as having been misnamed...and not the "Kisatchie" cornsnake by any of its nicknames. :shrugs: If you remember, "Western cornsnake" is an older name that is synonymous with "Emory ratsnake." By the way, Emory ratsnakes have been considered a different species since the 1970's. As much as I agree or disagree with that nomenclature - it has stood the test of time.

I've, of course, ignored the whole genera argument of Elaphe versus Pantherophis versus Pituophis since it is not relevant here and now. I didn't do that to confuse any third party readers.

So, the BRIEF answer is, "Well, it just is called a cornsnake whether it seems to make any sense or not. Approved common names don't HAVE to make sense and follow orderly rules the way scientific names do." ...and yep, those babies resulting from the cross of a guttata X slownskii are still hybrids regardless of the common name or taxonomic tag you put on it. :sidestep:

KJ

I kinda see what you are saying in that if it were a ratsnake it should have the taxa, Obsoleta............but it dose not AND it's NOT a cornsnake, seeing how Guttata X Slowinskii neonates are considered hybrids.................so what is it actually???:shrugs:

Just a bit confused.
It just seems to me since it's so MUCH more closer to a Cornsnake vs. Emory as you mentioned above, it should have just been classified as Pantherophis Guttata or Elaphe Guttata, which ever was being used at the time of it's classification.

Maybe somewhere down the line the classification will change AGAIN, just as the Rosy Rat did, which is now classified AS a Keys CORNSNAKE.
If that were to happen, then those "Hybrids" would magically change into Cornsnakes overnight :laugh01:

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[KJUN]

Well, I think the confusion is that you think the common name means something....lol. It actually means nothing. Call it a "kern snake" like those LA rednecks do, and it would be no less accurate taxonomically. LOL. (I remember I heard the first guy from near Alexanderia talk about a kernsnake - it took me 3 weeks to figure out what he meant.....lol.) Don't let the common name confuse you. If a silverFISH can be an insect instead of a fish, then anything they want - from boa to Elaphe - can be called a kingsnake, right? Heck, the scarlet kingsnake/ Louisiana milksnake misnomer is worse.....lol. All I can say is talk to Burbrink and ask him why he choose cornsnake instead of ratsnake. I'd bet it was because it was more similar to corns than Emory's....and "how cares about common names?"

You could still call them a hybrid, if you wanted to, since all that term means is a cross between unlike parents. Since these things from central LA are "unlike" the things from Florida, then the offspring CAN be technically called a hybrid regardless of taxa names. Of course, even though that is technically correct, it would be misleading to hobbyists since that isn't what they typically mean by the term. "Hybrid" is even used to describe the offspring of two inbred strains of rodents. Obviously, this is not what "snake breeders" mean by the term, but that's usually just because they tend to think of the definition of that particular word in a very limited fashion.

I doubt slowinskii will be made synonymous with guttata any time soon, but I believe the subspecies of guttata classification WILL stick after all the mud us done being flung around. Time will tell.....

Besides, cornsnakes are the dumping ground for everything anyway. Think about all the cornsnake hybrids! You don't have Jungle KINGS or Turbo PINES or ...... et cetera..... you get the picture. Make a hybrid with any amount of corn in it at all, and it is called a corn - not the other things. I'm sure there are exception, but you get my point. Who cares if it is Slowinskii's Cornsnake or Slowinskii's ratsnake or Slowinskii's "kernsnake." The common name doesn't mean anything. Whatever tha ttag on the type specimen says - THAT is what matters after all. Of course, that tag can change.

I kinda see what you are saying in that if it were a ratsnake it should have the taxa, Obsoleta............but it dose not AND it's NOT a cornsnake, seeing how Guttata X Slowinskii neonates are considered hybrids.................so what is it actually???:shrugs:

Just a bit confused.
It just seems to me since it's so MUCH more closer to a Cornsnake vs. Emory as you mentioned above, it should have just been classified as Pantherophis Guttata or Elaphe Guttata, which ever was being used at the time of it's classification.

Maybe somewhere down the line the classification will change AGAIN, just as the Rosy Rat did, which is now classified AS a Keys CORNSNAKE.
If that were to happen, then those "Hybrids" would magically change into Cornsnakes overnight :laugh01:

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[Walter Smith]

Well, I think the confusion is that you think the common name means something....lol. It actually means nothing. Call it a "kern snake" like those LA rednecks do, and it would be no less accurate taxonomically. LOL. (I remember I heard the first guy from near Alexanderia talk about a kernsnake - it took me 3 weeks to figure out what he meant.....lol.) Don't let the common name confuse you. If a silverFISH can be an insect instead of a fish, then anything they want - from boa to Elaphe - can be called a kingsnake, right?

So, when I hatch out the F2's from the Coral Snow Corn X Kisatchie breeding that I did this year, I can lable them as:

Snow Kisatchie Corns
Anery Kisatchie Corns
Amel Kisatchie Corns
Hypo Kisatchie Corns

seeing how the common name just dosen't matter......:shrugs:
Got it.

Thanks for the info KJ.

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[KJUN]

So, when I hatch out the F2's from the Coral Snow Corn X Kisatchie breeding that I did this year, I can lable them as:

Snow Kisatchie Corns
Anery Kisatchie Corns
Amel Kisatchie Corns
Hypo Kisatchie Corns

seeing how the common name just dosen't matter......:shrugs:
Got it.

Why not? uke02: If you did it, too, then you'd just be one more of the guys selling hybrids as pure snakes, eh? Sadly, when someone does that, they wont be the first...or even the second....that I know of that were doing such a disreputable thing. Seriously, I hope you know what I meant and how much you had to twist things around to make that bad of a joke....lol. I'm actually impressed. - that takes talent I lack We both should know that this would be as dishonest as calling a Texas ratsnake a "Kisatchie cornsnake" - and that your original confusion was reading too much into the establishment of a common name. To me, "why is it a Kisatchie cornsnake instead of a Kisatchie ratsnake" is equivalent to asking "Why is it a mountain lion instead of a cougar?" Well, because THAT is the name that is approved. Cougar IS a common name, but not the "right" (i.e., approved) one. Calling a bobcat a "mountain line" is wrong in the same way calling a hybrid by the name of a different animal I, well, as you know, wrong.

The leads me up to one of my pet peeves. Time to climb on the soapbox and start rambling....since you started it.
Not everyone with a bow can become a good bowhunter. Not everyone with a shotgun can become a successful professional skeet shooter. Not everyone with a paint brush can make a Mona Lisa. ........and not everyone with a a few snakes can become a herpetologist. I know I am WAY :-offtopic , but it puzzles me that so many snake hobbyists know that they can't understand electrical blueprints because they "don't speak the language," but they believe they can follow scientific articles without any need of learning to the that language. Heck, I've read about people arguing the merit of a nomenclature name change, and they didn't even even know what "bootstrapping" was! The funny thing was that it was the main method in the paper. (I'm ignoring the fact that they don't even understand the idea that systematics is never anything but a HYPOTHESIS of relationship...and never anything more!) Aw, heck. That's like me arguing with an electrician if I didn't know the difference between AC/DC current or positive/negative poles!

 

[Walter Smith]

Why not? uke02: If you did it, too, then you'd just be one more of the guys selling hybrids as pure snakes, eh?

Hold up man, don't get your panties in a bunch.
Who said that was going to sell hybrids as pure. Everyone out there who knows me in this hobby knows I'm a very reputible and honest person, including you KJ.

I just said that I could lable them as such. What else would they be lable as???......seeing how everyone who sell Kisatchies has them labled as CORNS when they ARE NOT corns. Sounds to me like someone selling a snake as a CORN when it's not.............no difference..........just a lable right?

Anyone who would want to purchase any of these would for surely get the info FROM ME PERSONALLY that they were produced from a cross of a Coral Snow Corn & Kisatchie Corn.

It then would be their decision to make the purchase.
Hell, pretty much everyone and their uncle knows what a Creamsicle CORN is and just by that LABLE, they know it is a hybrid, but yet it's labled as a CORN.

I don't see the problem that if I lable a snake that is the result of a Snow Corn X Kisatchie Corn, a Snow Kisatchie Corn, especially if it really dose not mean anything that the Kisatchie is called a Corn, when it's not.

I think you have read into something I wrote the wrong way man. I was just trying to figure out what to lable these as when the time comes and figured the best way to do that is find out a bit more about the KISATCHIE CORN from someone who has done research on them.
That person told me that it means nothing that they are called CORNS even though they aren't....................so I figured if it dosen't matter:shrugs::shrugs:

Walter,
:crazy02: BOUT' CORNS !!

 

[KJUN]

> Hold up man, don't get your panties in a bunch.

Dood, I took it as a jest at me. No bunched panties. Consider my typing as "going commando" they are so un-bunched. I don't see where the confusion originates, but nothing has me upset at you. YES, I'm upset at the ones I alluded to that DID misrepresent them, but that has nothing to do with any member I've ever seen post on this website. Promise.

> I just said that I could lable them as such. What else would they be lable as???......seeing how everyone who sell Kisatchies has them labled as CORNS when they ARE NOT corns. Sounds to me like someone selling a snake as a CORN when it's not.............no difference..........just a lable right?

I don't see where we are off-kilter from each other. Is a mountain lion a lion? No. Is a silverfish a fish? Nah. Cornsnake is a COMMON name. There are Kisatchie cornsnakes and Eastern/red cornsnakes. Both have the common name of "something" cornsnake, but are taxonomically different. Why should this ever be confusing? There are Baird's ratsnakes and Texas ratsnakes - both in Texas, called ratsnakes, and different taxa - but that isn't confusing? What's the problem?

> Hell, pretty much everyone and their uncle knows what a Creamsicle CORN is and just by that LABLE, they know it is a hybrid, but yet it's labled as a CORN.

I made that point with the "Turbo corn" and "jungle corn," too. Heck, Walter, I don't know WHAT to call them. I hate the cross, so I never thought about it. I don't see it as much different from a "rootbeer" corn to be completely honest.

> a Snow Kisatchie Corn, especially if it really dose not mean anything that the Kisatchie is called a Corn, when it's not.

BUT IT IS. The approved common name has "cornsnake" in it. This is silly. It's a cornsnake in ever meaning of the word. I just don't think you know what "cornsnake" means. It used to apply to one and only one taxa. Now, it does NOT. Ratsnakes, pinesnakes, gophersnakes, foxsnakes, milksnakes....etc....are all in the SAME situation. If you bred an albino TX rat to a Baird's rat, the babies couldn't be called an "albino baird's ratsnake." DITTO WITH KISATCHIE CORNS. The cases are pretty much identical. Both have similar common names (ratsnakes versus cornsnakes), both were in the same species at one time, both are now in separate species, both occasionally breed in the wild (rare), and both breed somewhat readily in captivity.

What would you call a baird's x Texas ratsnake hybrid? You wouldn't call it a Baird's OR a Texas ratsnake, right? You's make up a name or PUT hybrid in the name. "Pastel King" is a GOOD example of a new, made up name for a subset of hybrids. Why not wait and see what they look like and give them a NEW name based on those looks a la rootbeer and creamsicle?

The BIG problem is that we already HAVE anerythristic Kisatchie cornsnakes - and they aren't the results of hybridization. What happens when we get an albino and can (one day, I hope) make PURE "snow" Kisatchie cornsnakes? Want to use that name NOW for a hybrid and steal it from future gens? That's not right on any level.

I've sold those pure anerythristic Kisatchie cornsnakes. If you use the same name for the hybrids, can't you see why that's a problem EVEN though you try to represented them correctly? Creamsicles weren't called "albino corns" for the same reason you shouldn't use the term "albino" Kisatchie for just another mutt cross.

Why not make up a new name like it warrants? That's separate the pure anerythristic Kisatchie - like myself, Don, Rob, etc. have - from the hybrids. People know rootbeer, pearl, creamsicle, etc. means hybrid. Kisatchie doesn't, so why potentially sully the name like that? Just give it a NEW name - like the other hybridizers who wanted to REDUCE confusion have in the past.

> That person told me that it means nothing that they are called CORNS even though they aren't....................so I figured if it dosen't matter:

We aren't speaking the same language, Walter. Is it Full Metal Jacket that said "What we have here is a failure to communicate!" That's what I feel like. Think of "Kisatchie/Slowinski's cornsnake" like "mountain lion." It's just a name, but it is THE APPROVED CORRECT name. Whether is is REALLY a cornsnake or not (or a lion or not) doesn't matter. But breeding two taxa together is STILL a hybrid and using the name of one of the pure taxa definitely confusing and (in my opinion) unethical. If you bred a mountain lion to a panther, you wouldn't call the babies Mountain lions. Ditto for the Kisatchie hybrids.

Remember that Rosy ratsnakes were a guttata subspecies...back when cornsnakes were "red ratsnakes." Your hybrids are NOT Kisatchie cornsnakes - why would you want to call them by a name that MEANS pure to everyone? Just make up a new name that ISN'T confusing and go with it. Call them rootbeers as far as I care. Hybrids are hybrids - and they'll look a LOT like rootbeers.

I don't want to put his name here, but there was a Texas guy selling "Kisatchies het albino" which were really hybrids. Today people STILL argue with me that albino Kisatchies exist. He did it on accident because he assumed everyone would KNOW they were hybrids, but I still get a couple emails a year about them. It's a mess. BAD mess. Please don't make that worse. Make up a new name. "Kisatchie" should ONLY be used for pure - and never attached to hybrid - Slowinskii's cornsnakes! That's my firm hope & belief.

Final word I'll say, why call them "snow Kisatchies"? Why not
snow cornsnakes" - since they have JUST as much eastern cornsnake blood in them as Kisatchie cornsnake blood! I'm still thinking you were jesting with me. Either way, we are down to repeating the same thing in a new color (pun intended), so I'll bow out. I hope you choose a name to MINIMIZE possible confusion - like rootbeer does - and not one that will be misleading and easily confused with the PURE Kisatchie morphs that WILL eventually turn up...if we wait long enough.

KJ

 

[dpreston66]

Awesome snakes. :crazy02:Great finds!