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WOOOT BARRACK OBAMA

I and (I think) others believe in the "hard line"/pro-active approach. "Look, let's be civil... let's be friends. However, if you cross this line (wherever it may be), we will be forced to respond."
This " approach" is what I'm having a hard time with. Where exactly has this gotten us so far? Vietnam, Iraq... When has this approach ever worked in our favor? Maybe we would've gotten bin Laden by now if we weren't bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire, and yes we drew a line and yes Saddam crossed it, big suprise, we knew he would. Granted we needed to be in Afganistan but, the last truly just war I believe we were involved in was WWII and it took Pearl Harbor to foment our resolve. We don't need to be policing the WORLD! Don't you think we have enough domestic issues to keep us busy without looking outside our borders for more? Shouldn't diplomacy be the ultimate goal of all nations? Irregardless of how I or you feel about NATO, isn't that where we should be looking to solve international issues that do NOT directly afffect our security. We need a president willing to push that agenda, we've had enough fat-rich WarHawks ready to sacrifice others. I personally would feel uncomfortable demanding that other Americans go off to fight wars and DIE, while I sit here comfortably at home...bemoaning the president elect whom hasn't even been given a chance and I'm going to say it: Because I honestly believe that the VAST majority of the most vocal naysayers( not all mind you and none specifically on this site) but the vast majority are disgusting racists whether admitted or not.
 
Originally Posted by The_Thunderer
...The US is committed to Israel and Barack chooses Rahm Emanuel - a person who is very anti-Israel - as his Chief of Staff...

This is the kind of mis-information that spreads like a plague and the people who really want to believe this type of nonsense grasp it and write bulk emails backing this stuff up!
 
When in doubt

This is the kind of mis-information that spreads like a plague and the people who really want to believe this type of nonsense grasp it and write bulk emails backing this stuff up!
Well, not being altogether positive, I went to good ol' google, and good ol' wikipedia. Like I often do for lots of things. Very colorful and patriotic judaic background of the Emanuel née Auerbach family.
I would like to think that people think and research info. before it gets to the "bulk email" stage.
 
I would like to think that people think and research info. before it gets to the "bulk email" stage.
They Don't! How about an even more depressing current example of intentional misinformation:
Do you actually think for one second that McCain or even Palin for that matter, actually believed that Obama was a super secret member of Ayers's Weather Underground terrorist organization?
Didn't stop them from spreading that intentional mis-information did it?
 
Just personal opinion, I view ideological hatred as being more calculated and thought driven and religious and ethnic hatred as being more emotional driven. Not making one any deeper than the other but one may be less stable than the other.
I thought Emanuel was Jewish?
Some more info about the man... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahm_Emanuel
He went to summer camp in Israel. When his family lived in Chicago, he attended Bernard Zell Anshe Emet Day School, a Jewish day school.
People just like to speculate.
This is the kind of mis-information that spreads like a plague and the people who really want to believe this type of nonsense grasp it and write bulk emails backing this stuff up!
I will admit, I am at fault here and will remove that part of what I posted earlier. I mis-spoke about Mr. Rahm Emanuel bein anti-Israel and ask that, after I have removed it, I would be forgiven for having committed such a grave error. Mea culpa.
 
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Fred, no problem, just out of curiosity, How did you come to that initial conclusion?

Sorry just got this rep PM from you ( hope you don't mind me posting it)

Thank you for pointing out my error. I mis-spoke and removed that from my post. It was - plain and simple - an error. I hope to NOT make one again.
Well, I can assure you of one thing, I'm certain that I will make errors and mis-speak in the future. The important thing is that I would hope to retract my errors as succinctly and with as much humility as you.
 
Just personal opinion, I view ideological hatred as being more calculated and thought driven and religious and ethnic hatred as being more emotional driven. Not making one any deeper than the other but one may be less stable than the other.

Perhaps.

Although, how many ideological wars has the US been in as opposed to religious ones?
 
Fred, no problem, just out of curiosity, How did you come to that initial conclusion?

Sorry just got this rep PM from you ( hope you don't mind me posting it)

Well, I can assure you of one thing, I'm certain that I will make errors and mis-speak in the future. The important thing is that I would hope to retract my errors as succinctly and with as much humility as you.

LOL. I can't remember where I "heard" it... but obviously, I should have done more research before "spouting off at the mouth". LOL.

Thanks... Perhaps this is a lesson to myself... "Just avoid the political threads". LOL.
 
Please Fred, don't avoid political threads... It is always fascinating to hear other people's opinions when they are so different than mine.

A simple slip of the tongue is a common error. E.g. Joe Biden. :)

Besides, I love to prove other people wrong. If everyone agrees in everything, this forum would be much more boring. :roflmao:
 
Please Fred, don't avoid political threads... It is always fascinating to hear other people's opinions when they are so different than mine.

A simple slip of the tongue is a common error. E.g. Joe Biden. :)

Besides, I love to prove other people wrong. If everyone agrees in everything, this forum would be much more boring. :roflmao:
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
After 8 years of warrantless wire-tapping, habeas corpus suspensions, intelligence manipulation, war profiteering, and lies, I have no problem giving Obama the benefit of the doubt as far as trust goes. He'd have to screw up pretty badly to come anywhere near the utter failure of the Dubya administration.

Yes and yes.
 
I will admit, I am at fault here and will remove that part of what I posted earlier. I mis-spoke about Mr. Rahm Emanuel bein anti-Israel and ask that, after I have removed it, I would be forgiven for having committed such a grave error. Mea culpa.
No problem Thunderer. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't thinking wrong about him.
 
Perhaps.

Although, how many ideological wars has the US been in as opposed to religious ones?
Point taken. Suicide bombers would be an example I think of as an emotional/religious/ethnic act. Its one thing to risk ones life in war like most soldiers do but a bit of another to intentionally blow yourself up to get 72 virgins. :shrugs:
 
Point taken. Suicide bombers would be an example I think of as an emotional/religious/ethnic act. Its one thing to risk ones life in war like most soldiers do but a bit of another to intentionally blow yourself up to get 72 virgins. :shrugs:

Two sides of the same coin. Look at all the horror stories that came out of Vietnam. Suicide bombers definitely see themselves as soldiers and soldiers are capable of committing atrocities just like the rest of us.

People using God or Country to justify their actions are doing the same thing. If you can rationalize your behavior as being for the 'greater good', whatever that good may be, then you're willing to do just about anything.
 
True, it is a matter of degree, mostly. Some people can get highly emotional about political / ideological ideas, too. And mob psychology can work to get a bunch of people worked up over just about ANYTHING! But my point is that it is a lot easier to get a lot more people emotionally charged up about core issues such as religion, than politics.

I have no doubt that atrocities can be committed in any war or similar setting. I think it is that mob psychology, with a good dose of adrenalin, that would allow otherwise normal people, to do such things.

My point was just that the hostilities between these middle eastern countries are caused by such core issues as religion and ethnicity, and very long standing animosity between the populations, rather than just between the governments. And that the actual population likely has a lower tolerance and flash point because of the deep seated nature of these ongoing problems. Although some Americans and some Russians are probably emotional about politics, probably not as many would be willing to sacrifice themselves for politics as they would for something like religion (if it is important to them) or some other closely held belief.

Think of people who really hate snakes. They might give a reason - venomous, dangerous, slimy, etc. If their hatred was logical, then they would be fine with them once they found out how few were dangerous, their benefits to ecology, not slimy, etc. But that rarely happens because their fear / hatred is too emotionally charged - they learned from parents and grandparents as children, and it will be difficult or impossible to change their minds. It is not IMPOSSIBLE to change, just very difficult when the subject has a lot of emotional baggage. Emotion trumps logic for most people, unfortunately.

True that it IS just two sides of the same coin. But I see the nuances in degree as having very real possible differences in the outcome between populations of different sets of countries. Sorry if I am not explaining my feelings of these nuances very well - hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say.
 
Actually, Kathy, I understand what you're saying exactly. And it is a very good point. However, I'd like to point you to all the people who said they were moving to Canada as a result of the election to show how emotionally people react to ideology. There is no logic or knowledge driving that decision because the Democrats are less socialist than Canada's most conservative official party, but because of the fear of socialism and communism that still exists as a result of the cold war, people react emotionally.

You don't have to look very far to find extremists in the US who are ideological zealots just like their religious counterparts.

I think the one assumption you're making, however, that is likely wrong is that the entire nations of Iran and Israel feel the same as the outward appearance of their governments. Ahmadinejad has found some very strong opposition to his hard line stances from Iran's clergy in recent months. As you said, the cold war was suspicion between governments, but the conflict between Iran and Israel, is, by definition, between the governments of those nations as well.
 
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