Your Religious Views

[Paradox]

A point to make (Partly to revive the thread, as I find it interesting how close the Theist and Atheist votes in the poll are).

In my experience, Theism is much more widely accepted than Atheism. If you say you're religious, people will just nod and move on generally, as that's expected. But if you mention being atheist, you get a barrage of questions asking why and how and so on. And I'm happy to answer these, as I have as firm a belief in Atheism as many Theists do in Religion, although evidently for different reasons. But it sets me wondering, how long will it take these kinds of people to adapt to atheists?

Racism is becoming less of a problem now, although it is still there. Sexism is much less serious now than it was not long ago. But atheists seem not to have been integrated all that much really (Although I accept that the level of discrimination against us is comparatively fairly low). I'm thinking about trying to set up a society in our school for Agnostics and Atheists, as there is already a Christian group in the school. But I get the distinct impression that the answer will be no. The downside is that many schools over here are religiously based, mine included. Although thankfully evolution is taught, so at least people get a chance to think for themselves rather than having one option shoved down their throats.

I don't know, it just doesn't seem to ring true to me that simply because you don't share someone's beliefs your actions should be restricted... :shrugs:

 

[jazzgeek]

But it sets me wondering, how long will it take these kinds of people to adapt to atheists?

From the looks of it, it's going to be a while.

regards,
jazz

 

[Paradox]

Yes, I've seen that study. But I didn't see a mention of how many people were surveyed. I'd suspect it was a small group of people from one city, which wouldn't be overly reliable...but I could be wrong.

 

[tyflier]

Paradox-

In my experience, the problem most people have with atheists is a lack of understanding. It is the same problem people have with true Satanists, paganism, and even different theistic religions from their own. A fear of the unknown leads them to believe the worst of everyone different from themselves.

Since each major world religion claims for itself to be the only true religion, and all others are simply idoloters(sp?), it is nearly impossible to firmly believe in your own religion, and still be accepting of others as true, valid, and reasonable religions. Afterall...you are "right", and they are "wrong". Even if you are respectful towards them, most firm believers are at the very least dismissive of other religions and beliefs. "They'll find out on Judgement Day..." is the train of thought.

What you end up with is a blind belief in what you have been taught, and an off-hand dismissal of everything different from that. Atheism falls firmly in the category of "unknown", because most people simply don't understand what it is. Religous people expect atheism to be like christianity, in that there is a set doctrine, dogmatic practices, rituals, and a comprehensible and agreed upon system of beliefs. Since atheism in it's truest form fails to meet ANY these criteria, it is difficult to understand. True atheism is an internal belief. One which is not controlled nor dictated by anyone or anything other than one's own beliefs. It is NOT dependant upon what one DOES believe in, but rather what one DOESN'T believe in. Because of this complete reversal of the christian belief system, it is far more difficult to comprehend.

Even a devout Roman Catholic can comprehend the basics of Buddhism, Muslim, Taoism, Satanism, Wiccan, and most other religions, because they can hear and read about the dogmatic practices, and learn about the system of beliefs, and decide if they agree with it or not. With atheism, they are not going to be told what to believe in. They are not going to be told what NOT to believe in. Atheism demands that the individual make all conclusions, decisions, and beliefs of their own accord...and alot of people can't handle that kind of pressure. Too many people would rather be TOLD what to think, than actually come to those conclusions on their own. It is easier that way...

Another "problem" with the understanding of atheism, is the simple idea that it is usually a "transitional phase" from one system of beliefs to another. Alot(not all, but a goodly percentage) of atheists eventually discover something to believe in, or decide that even if they don't know what it is, there is something(true agnostic). Atheists usually transition from a belief that there is no deity or higher power, and that science is the be-all and end-all of comprehension, to a belief that science cannot answer everything, and therefore there must be another reason...one which cannot be defined nor placed under scientific scrutiny. This leaves atheists firmly in the grounds of agnosticism, rather than atheism. This causes problems with christians because it is a belief system that allows for changes, for discovery, and a quest for some other "truth". This changing belief system is the very antithesis of christianity and religion, and adds to both the confusion and systematic dismissal of atheism by religious people...

 

[tom e]

I've heard them say, "There are no atheists in the foxholes"... I was happy to disprove that! Only I guess they might miss the point purposely and say- "Actually you were an Atheist against a sandy berm.." to which I would have to agree.

As for the count on the poll here, I'm tempted to count the Agnostics as Atheists, LOL. I mean what the heck is an agnostic anyway? I'm curious how someone comes to that determination though without going the rest of the way.

Are they looking for proof that there is no god? I'd think a lack of proof of gods existence should be sufficient to make an one an atheist, since it would tend to be the default position.. :shrugs:

 

[texastailfeathers]

I understand that everybody wants their beliefs to be accepted, but what's the point in having certain beliefs if you can't defend those beliefs and stand by them? :shrugs: If you accept everyone else's beliefs as equal and true, then there's really no point in having your own.

People are forgetting that it is entirely possible to accept a person without accepting everything they believe in. That's the point of individuality, isn't it?

 

[snakewispera snr]

In my experience it's easy to be an atheist when your fit, young and healthy.
I've spent over 30years in heavy engineering, steelworks, mines,bridges etc.
During that time I've been at the sharp end of some really bad accidents.
And unless they're unconscious, even the biggest hardest rough arsed bastard calls on god, some cry and most prey.
Suddenly atheism doesn't have the attraction, for them, it once did.
Just an interesting point
MIKE

 

[tom e]

I understand that everybody wants their beliefs to be accepted, but what's the point in having certain beliefs if you can't defend those beliefs and stand by them? :shrugs: If you accept everyone else's beliefs as equal and true, then there's really no point in having your own.

People are forgetting that it is entirely possible to accept a person without accepting everything they believe in. That's the point of individuality, isn't it?

What are you referring to? Who would you like to see defend their beliefs better?

I fully agree with accepting the people! I accept all of them.. You wouldn't expect me to just say I agree with them would you?

 

[snakewispera snr]

I mean what the heck is an agnostic anyway? I'm curious how someone comes to that determination though without going the rest of the way.

Are they looking for proof that there is no god? :shrugs:

My friend is a dyslexic insomniac agnostic
And he sits up all night wondering if theres a dog

 

[tom e]

In my experience it's easy to be an atheist when your fit, young and healthy.
I've spent over 30years in heavy engineering, steelworks, mines,bridges etc.
During that time I've been at the sharp end of some really bad accidents.
And unless they're unconscious, even the biggest hardest rough arsed bastard calls on god, some cry and most prey.
Suddenly atheism doesn't have the attraction, for them, it once did.
Just an interesting point
MIKE

I've stubbed my toe before and said, "JESUS!".. Hopefully that wasn't a conversion though Mike.. :grin01:

But I'm somewhat young, somewhat fit, and pretty healthy yeah. I've seen guys horribly injured and killed in war. I kinda' know what you are saying. But we'll agree to disagree on that.

 

[snakewispera snr]

I've stubbed my toe before and said, "JESUS!".. Hopefully that wasn't a conversion though Mike.. :grin01:

But I'm somewhat young, somewhat fit, and pretty healthy yeah. I've seen guys horribly injured and killed in war. I kinda' know what you are saying. But we'll agree to disagree on that.

Yea we all do that, but when please is added to the front of the blasphemy it make you wonder how we see things when you look the reaper in the face.
I ain't been that close,only watched people on that journey.

 

[texastailfeathers]

What are you referring to? Who would you like to see defend their beliefs better?

I was referring to the messages in which people have said they didn't understand why people wouldn't accept their beliefs...or wondered when their particular belief system would finally be accepted. I think people are confusing "acceptance" with "agreement". If you're an atheist/agnostic/wiccan/whatever, I can accept that. I don't agree with those beliefs and I don't adopt them as my own, but I do accept you as a person and I accept your beliefs as valid and valuable. [Validity and value have nothing to do with right/wrong or good/bad, by the way.]

I personally prefer to put more time and effort into finding and working on my own beliefs than rejecting other people's beliefs.

And also...since religion (or lack thereof) is based on faith (again, or lack thereof), and NO belief system is "unique" (there's always somebody that believed it before us) then aren't we all following "blindly" to some degree? :shrugs:

 

[tom e]

So let's say that you and I were hanging out Mike, and I was hit by a car crossing the street.
Right in front of you if I said "Please God help me!" before the ambulance arrived that would help to confirm your belief that god existed?
And if later after my recovery, you reminded me of what I said, my response would most likely be, "Yeah, I thought I was going to die and I was thinking all kinds of crazy stuff, but no Mike I'm still an atheist."

I guess I feel that situations like these make a different point to me than they do to you. I see it more as a very emotional state, and the things people say at such times shouldn't be held against them.. I saw my uncle fall off a ladder once and all he kept talking about was how he wasn't going anywhere until someone turned off the water in the bathroom sink. Which wasn't running. I don't make that out to be anything more than what it is..

 

[tom e]

I was referring to the messages in which people have said they didn't understand why people wouldn't accept their beliefs...or wondered when their particular belief system would finally be accepted. I think people are confusing "acceptance" with "agreement". If you're an atheist/agnostic/wiccan/whatever, I can accept that. I don't agree with those beliefs and I don't adopt them as my own, but I do accept you as a person and I accept your beliefs as valid and valuable. [Validity and value have nothing to do with right/wrong or good/bad, by the way.]

I personally prefer to put more time and effort into finding and working on my own beliefs than rejecting other people's beliefs.

And also...since religion (or lack thereof) is based on faith (again, or lack thereof), and NO belief system is "unique" (there's always somebody that believed it before us) then aren't we all following "blindly" to some degree? :shrugs:

Ok, I see.
But can you explain how you feel Atheism is based on faith?

 

[jazzgeek]

As for the count on the poll here, I'm tempted to count the Agnostics as Atheists, LOL. I mean what the heck is an agnostic anyway?

Not to sound like Cliff Claven here, but the etymology of "agnostic" translates to "without knowledge"; that is, someone who believes that there isn't enough "knowledge" out there to neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God.

One of my favorite quote regarding agnosticism is from Bertrand Russell, the mathemetician, philosopher, and social critic of a century ago. When asked how, once he died, he would respond to God "at the Pearly Gates", Russell immediately retorted "I'd look him in the eye and tell him, 'Sir, we just didn't enough information down there.' "

regards,
jazz

 

[jazzgeek]

Not to sound like Cliff Claven here, but the etymology of "agnostic" translates to "without knowledge"; that is, someone who believes that there isn't enough "knowledge" out there to neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God.

One of my favorite quote regarding agnosticism is from Bertrand Russell, the mathemetician, philosopher, and social critic of a century ago. When asked how, once he died, he would respond to God "at the Pearly Gates", Russell immediately retorted "I'd look him in the eye and tell him, 'Sir, we just didn't enough information down there.' "

regards,
jazz

GAHHHHH. I should revisit that "read before you click submit" policy again.

"One of my favorite quotes"....

"Sir, we just didn't have enough information down there."

OK. I'm better now.

regards,
jazz

 

[tom e]

I don't think I need to even attempt to disprove god's existence to be an Atheist.

Can anyone disprove this guy? http://www.venganza.org/
And if not do we have to say we're agnostic about him?

 

[snakewispera snr]

i have to play the devils advocate, It's my job.LOL

 

[jazzgeek]

I don't think I need to even attempt to disprove god's existence to be an Atheist.

Well, words have meanings. Similarly to a-gnostic, a-theist is one who denies or disbelieves the existence of a Deity.

I guess I'm old school. If I believe in something, disbelieve in something, assert something, or deny something, I'd better have an argument, proof, syllogistic conclusion, or reason, based on information and/or logic, to prove my claim.

I'm weird that way.

Can anyone disprove this guy? http://www.venganza.org/

Nope, nobody can.....and RAMEN!, btw.

And if not do we have to say we're agnostic about him?

If and ONLY IF you believe that you don't have (must I repeat myself here?) enough information to prove OR disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

regards,
jazz

 

[snakewispera snr]

I don't think I need to even attempt to disprove god's existence to be an Atheist.

I thought atheists didn't believe in the existence of god.
So how can you need to disprove if you don't believe.