Your Religious Views

[Emanon]

This question also falls in step with who leans left or right...*LOL* I like to try and stay out these kinds of threads only because it gives me a little clearer definition of who and what I am dealing with.. *lol*

Regards.. Tim of T and J

I hear ya on that LOL!!!

 

[suecornish]

I don't see the point of having friends with whom one can't discuss religion and politics. I don't see the point of having friends with whom one can't safely get into HEATED discussions about religion and politics. Perhaps this is why I often have only a small number of friends . . .

I agree. I have only one friend, a good and true friend, that I can talk religion with (I'm not interested in politics) and have deep conversations. We don't attack each other because we do not believe the same way but I have had some co-workers who have overheard our discussions and have said some cutting remarks personally directed at me.

We shouldn't insult someone who doesn't believe as we do. So far this thread has been great because we have been able to discuss and not personally attack. So, that makes us unusual in that so many of us can have an intellegent conversation on such a touchy subject without becoming angry.

 

[diamondlil]

On average, I deal with a patient dying at least once a week at work. We have to respect whatever that person and their family's views are, so any fixed and exclusive set of beliefs from myself wouldn't be appropriate at all there. We've accommadated some pretty outlandish requests as well as the practices of many of the established religions.

 

[suecornish]

On average, I deal with a patient dying at least once a week at work. We have to respect whatever that person and their family's views are, so any fixed and exclusive set of beliefs from myself wouldn't be appropriate at all there. We've accommadated some pretty outlandish requests as well as the practices of many of the established religions.

Isn't it amazing how our brains can make us so diverse. We all are structured the same but we all think differently.

 

[tyflier]

I don't see the point of having friends with whom one can't discuss religion and politics. I don't see the point of having friends with whom one can't safely get into HEATED discussions about religion and politics. Perhaps this is why I often have only a small number of friends . . .

I agree whole-heartedly with this statement. I only have one really great friend...my current roomate, and 2 people could not possibly be further apart on views as related to religion and politics. We have very heated discussions about these 2 subjects all the time, but in the end, we respect each other, and our different opinions, and so we remain great friends...

 

[tom e]

I just wanted to say a couple of things...

First, I wanted to commend everyone for their respect and behavior throughout what can often turn into a deadly discussion. That's pretty cool...

Secondly, anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, should look into "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It's a very interesting way of looking at things, to say the least. It may not change your mind about anything, but at least it will encourage you to think about it from a different perspective. Here's a Wikipedia Link, with a pretty good entry on it.

You must spread some rep around blah blah...

GREAT BOOK tyflier..

All his books are great.

And the way I think Dawkins would answer the watch question: if the box of parts were shaken an infinate number of times, then yes, it would definately contain a complete watch at least one time..

 

[Paradox]

You must spread some rep around blah blah...

GREAT BOOK tyflier..

All his books are great.

And the way I think Dawkins would answer the watch question: if the box of parts were shaken an infinate number of times, then yes, it would definately contain a complete watch at least one time..

I concur; it's massively improbable, but in an infinite number of shakes it would, eventually, form a watch. Like Earth; an extraordinary coincidence, but a coincidence none the less, in my opinion.

Also, the thought occurs, you claim humans need a creator because they are so astoundingly complex - but that God doesn't need one. Hold on...for a being to be omnipresent and omnipotent, an incredibly complex bit of neural activity has to be going on there, as well as the capacity to channel energy to create the universe etc. That being would be infinatly more complex than any human...and yet when we HAVE to have a creator, he doesn't? God is like putting all the parts of a space shuttle in a (rather large) box and expecting them to form the finished product...even less probable than mankind and the earth being formed.

 

[tyflier]

...the thought occurs, you claim humans need a creator because they are so astoundingly complex - but that God doesn't need one. Hold on...for a being to be omnipresent and omnipotent, an incredibly complex bit of neural activity has to be going on there, as well as the capacity to channel energy to create the universe etc. That being would be infinatly more complex than any human...and yet when we HAVE to have a creator, he doesn't? God is like putting all the parts of a space shuttle in a (rather large) box and expecting them to form the finished product...even less probable than mankind and the earth being formed.

Wait a minute...I'm not even a theist of any sort, and I can't agree with your argument...

You are thinking of "God" in human terms. IF "God" exists, in the Christian sense of the word, than He would be so far beyond our comprehension and understanding, that trying to decipher how and why He came to be would be a practice in the art of futility. We cannot comprehend who he is, and you're trying to argue against HOW he is?

There is NO WAY an argument against the existence of an omnipresent and intangible being can be convincingly done by using human terms of creation. A god of such a nature would be well beyond the needs of human creation to exist. Simple as that, and you don't need ANY holy book to figure that out. Whatever deity you choose to worship is supposed to be utterly beyond our comprehension...that includes how "he" came to be...

Your argument can't hold water. It's an "apples and oranges" comparison...

 

[Shade]

I've found that since I fell from christianity and became an Atheist, things make a lot more sense and I am less often stressed out. God is just completely illogical when there are so many other possible explanations that make more sense.

 

[Marcel Poots]

I think religion is a bad recipy for hate. I am an obvious non believer. My fiance is Muslim. I respect the fact she is. But I really don't like things like that she does not believe in Darwins evolution theory and so fort.

 

[Shade]

I think religion is a bad recipy for hate. I am an obvious non believer. My fiance is Muslim. I respect the fact she is. But I really don't like things like that she does not believe in Darwins evolution theory and so fort.

I know what that's like. I've been with a devout catholic/christian (she can't seem to decide which denomination to belong to.) for 3 years. Leads to a lot of heated arguments, to say the least.

 

[Paradox]

Wait a minute...I'm not even a theist of any sort, and I can't agree with your argument...

You are thinking of "God" in human terms. IF "God" exists, in the Christian sense of the word, than He would be so far beyond our comprehension and understanding, that trying to decipher how and why He came to be would be a practice in the art of futility. We cannot comprehend who he is, and you're trying to argue against HOW he is?

There is NO WAY an argument against the existence of an omnipresent and intangible being can be convincingly done by using human terms of creation. A god of such a nature would be well beyond the needs of human creation to exist. Simple as that, and you don't need ANY holy book to figure that out. Whatever deity you choose to worship is supposed to be utterly beyond our comprehension...that includes how "he" came to be...

Your argument can't hold water. It's an "apples and oranges" comparison...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyflier again.

Valid point.

And yes, I'm in the same boat as Shade and Marcel (Though not for as long) - for about 9 months I've been with a devout Christian, it's sprung a couple of difficulties, but you can muddle through that kind of thing.

 

[tom e]

I think this is an amazing time in history in regards to this conversation. I'm not a scientist and don't understand everything Dawkins says in his books, but what got me most excited about the recent Ancestors Tale, was where he was talking about the "missing links" in fossil records.

According to him, where missing links occur in that record, they do NOT occur in the genetics we all carry. He predicts that it won't be long till we can see the whole history of life in DNA..

What will religion do when things become that clear? I'm not a buddhist any more than I am a christian, but I really like what the Dhali Lama has said in that regard. He was asked what sort of changes would happen with Tibetan Buddhist doctrine if something within it was proven untrue. And his answer was that even if it was some core tenet like reincarnation, he would like to see it dropped from religious doctrine.

Here's an interesting question for christians...

How much would it really change your faith, if the concensus was made similarly in your religion.

Christ still died on the cross to redeem your sins, you still have to accept him to go to heaven, but the earth wasn't made in seven days, and evolution is real?

 

[Nanci]

I don't think I could have a serious relationship with someone who didn't acknowledge the truth of evolution.

Tom E- that wouldn't effect my faith at all.

I was trying to find a quote. It's kind of how I've come to think of religious writings and tomes.

What is hurtful to yourself do not to your
fellow man. That is the whole of the Torah
and the remainder is but commentary.

Nanci

 

[Emanon]

Hey Marcel, why does it bug you so much that she does not believe in Darwin's theory?

 

[tyflier]

I don't think I could have a serious relationship with someone who didn't acknowledge the truth of evolution.

Tom E- that wouldn't effect my faith at all.

I was trying to find a quote. It's kind of how I've come to think of religious writings and tomes.

What is hurtful to yourself do not to your
fellow man. That is the whole of the Torah
and the remainder is but commentary.

Nanci

More wars have been fought on the grounds of religious belief(notice I didn't say "christianity"), than any other reason in the history of mankind.

Ironically enough, all theistic religions have one theme in common...The Golden Rule..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It is this basic love and respect that can be found at the foundation of all modern religions from Muslim to Buddhist, Christian to Pagan.

If everyone just followed that basic, human guideline...what else would we need to believe in?

 

[suecornish]

More wars have been fought on the grounds of religious belief(notice I didn't say "christianity"), than any other reason in the history of mankind.

Ironically enough, all theistic religions have one theme in common...The Golden Rule..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It is this basic love and respect that can be found at the foundation of all modern religions from Muslim to Buddhist, Christian to Pagan.

If everyone just followed that basic, human guideline...what else would we need to believe in?

I think that humans (not all) need to believe in some higher power. If only to absolve themselves of responsibility. Things go wrong and it's God's will; natural events take human lives and it's God's will; a loved one dies and it's God's will; people get fired and wonder why God is against them - it is easier to place blame/responsibility onto someone else, something who has greater power than we do. If a toddler drowns while the parents are preoccupied-it is easier to say it's God's Will than for the parents to accept responsibility and say they should have kept a closer watch on their child. God is a scapegoat.

 

[Paradox]

Dumping responsibility rather than coming to terms with mistakes is not a good thing IMO though...It just gives people an excuse. Do we let of a murderer because it was Gods will he killed? No? I don't see why it should apply to other deaths either. :shrugs:

 

[tyflier]

I think that humans (not all) need to believe in some higher power. If only to absolve themselves of responsibility. Things go wrong and it's God's will; natural events take human lives and it's God's will; a loved one dies and it's God's will; people get fired and wonder why God is against them - it is easier to place blame/responsibility onto someone else, something who has greater power than we do. If a toddler drowns while the parents are preoccupied-it is easier to say it's God's Will than for the parents to accept responsibility and say they should have kept a closer watch on their child. God is a scapegoat.

{emphasis mine}
Selfish humans, maybe...

Anyone that is unwilling to accept responsibility for their own action(or inaction, as the case may be), doesn't deserve to be loved unconditionally by an Eternal Savior.

I have also never agreed with absolution. I refuse to believe that any right and just god would forgive and forget, with the same uncondtitional love, one who cheats on their college entrance exams and one who has raped and killed many other humans. And that IS the Christian God, as told by the Bible. I cannot believe that. I cannot believe that I could go on a murder spree tonight, and wake up and go to church in the morning, and "hand over my sins to God", and all is forgiven. That is a cop out...plain and simple.

I do, however, agree that some people need to believe in something, and others need to believe in ANYthing. It's really too bad they can't simply believe in themselves, and their own inherent righteousness. We ALL have the propensity for both good and evil. Unfortunately...evil is easier. Even more unfortunate...the Church makes evil that much easier with bi-weekly absolution available to anyone willing to ask for it... uke01:

And just as a point of clarification, simply because it has bothered me since this topic was started, Atheism is NOT the same thing as "not religous". Religion actually has very little to do with believing in a higher power. Religion is a business, especially organized religion. It is entirely possible for a person to be a firm believer in God and the Holy Trinity, and to worship daily in their own way, and live their entire lives according to the Laws of God...and never once set foot in a church or participate in a religous gathering. In fact...there are many believers that are not religous. Being religous is not a pre-requisite for believing in a higher power...As well...devout Atheism can become a religion...

 

[suecornish]

I agree religion is a business. We have a church in town that spent $25 million to build a new church. What gets me is that less than a mile away is a dirt road with about 20-25 homes that have no water hook-up because the owners of these homes are dirt poor and can not afford to put in the necessary pipes. Would it not have been more "Christian" to use some of the $25 million to help these people out and build a less grand church.

Hum, guess not - these people are not members of the church. How Christian is that.

Faith comes from within the heart. Most times there is no thinking about it. You don't KNOW that it's right, you feel that it is right. Faith and religion are not the same. Faith is the apples on the trees and religion is the store that cashes in on it.