Some People... (rant!)

[kathylove]

"...Actually, that isn't necessarily so. I've known LPN and RN (I'll leave out the joke of what those stand for since you would likely take it as an offense if I'm reading your tones in the other posts correctly) that couldn't do basic math with fractions..."

Haha! That would have been me! I was terrible in math, but did brush up enough to learn to figure medicine dosages and to pass the LPN exam (with high marks, I might add!) But I only stayed in the career long enough to start my reptile business on its way.

I have studied a bit of nutrition because I have always been interested in it. I think that newer studies are finding that a lot of the phytochemicals found in dark or brightly colored fruits and veggies are way more important than realized in the past. I think future researchers will find more and more important components in fresh produce that they never knew existed, or thought made any difference. I never studied chemistry, so bogged down in some of the more technical aspects, but I try to eat as much colorful plant material as I can, although I am not a great veggie lover. I think I will get a lot of anti-inflammatory compounds, along with other stuff at least as important as "plain ol' vitamins" by doing so. All meat eaters can do the same - IF THEY CHOOSE.

I also am about the same weight as when in high school. Unfortunately, I was a fat teenager, lol! I have been good at losing - and gaining - weight all my life. Probably why I have always been interested in nutrition.

Anyway, I don't see the opposite sides here so far off. It almost seems to be semantics. Seems like the argument is that vegans have to be really good planners and well educated to stay healthy on that diet. AND that most "average" people are neither. Unfortunately, that is also true of meat eaters. That is why so many of us omnivores are seriously overweight - we may or may not be educated about what, and how much, to eat. BUT - we don't follow through even if we do know. I have met some vegans who are sugarholics - just like me, an omnivore. BUT - the problem with so many on the Standard American Diet (SAD) is that we don't eat nearly enough fresh produce, probably because it is not as tasty as meat and junk food.

Did anyone see the mini series with Dr. Oz last year? He did several actual experiments just to see what would happen. The first one took several middle aged people with the usual problems of high blood pressure, overweight, high cholesterol, etc. For best effect, he had them camp out at a zoo, near the primate house, and share the same fresh, raw, vegan diet for only 12 DAYS!! Then measured all of the same stats again. ALL of the participants were MUCH closer to healthy numbers in blood pressure, blood tests, etc, than just 12 days previously. That is not to say that we MUST become raw vegans to achieve that. But OTOH, it shows that our typical SAD diet enjoyed by most as "normal", definitely needs a LOT of improvement!

Dinah - glad to see you here, and in Florida, no less! You are new, so don't become intimidated by what seem like overzealous, argumentative debates. They DO get out of hand at times. But for the most part, we all love each other here, and love our debates over almost anything (wait until we get to religion and politics!!). And the pandas always come out eventually, and then we share a virtual beer, lol!

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

"...Actually, that isn't necessarily so. I've known LPN and RN (I'll leave out the joke of what those stand for since you would likely take it as an offense if I'm reading your tones in the other posts correctly) that couldn't do basic math with fractions..."

Haha! That would have been me! I was terrible in math, but did brush up enough to learn to figure medicine dosages and to pass the LPN exam (with high marks, I might add!) But I only stayed in the career long enough to start my reptile business on its way.

I have studied a bit of nutrition because I have always been interested in it. I think that newer studies are finding that a lot of the phytochemicals found in dark or brightly colored fruits and veggies are way more important than realized in the past. I think future researchers will find more and more important components in fresh produce that they never knew existed, or thought made any difference. I never studied chemistry, so bogged down in some of the more technical aspects, but I try to eat as much colorful plant material as I can, although I am not a great veggie lover. I think I will get a lot of anti-inflammatory compounds, along with other stuff at least as important as "plain ol' vitamins" by doing so. All meat eaters can do the same - IF THEY CHOOSE.

I also am about the same weight as when in high school. Unfortunately, I was a fat teenager, lol! I have been good at losing - and gaining - weight all my life. Probably why I have always been interested in nutrition.

Anyway, I don't see the opposite sides here so far off. It almost seems to be semantics. Seems like the argument is that vegans have to be really good planners and well educated to stay healthy on that diet. AND that most "average" people are neither. Unfortunately, that is also true of meat eaters. That is why so many of us omnivores are seriously overweight - we may or may not be educated about what, and how much, to eat. BUT - we don't follow through even if we do know. I have met some vegans who are sugarholics - just like me, an omnivore. BUT - the problem with so many on the Standard American Diet (SAD) is that we don't eat nearly enough fresh produce, probably because it is not as tasty as meat and junk food.

Did anyone see the mini series with Dr. Oz last year? He did several actual experiments just to see what would happen. The first one took several middle aged people with the usual problems of high blood pressure, overweight, high cholesterol, etc. For best effect, he had them camp out at a zoo, near the primate house, and share the same fresh, raw, vegan diet for only 12 DAYS!! Then measured all of the same stats again. ALL of the participants were MUCH closer to healthy numbers in blood pressure, blood tests, etc, than just 12 days previously. That is not to say that we MUST become raw vegans to achieve that. But OTOH, it shows that our typical SAD diet enjoyed by most as "normal", definitely needs a LOT of improvement!

Dinah - glad to see you here, and in Florida, no less! You are new, so don't become intimidated by what seem like overzealous, argumentative debates. They DO get out of hand at times. But for the most part, we all love each other here, and love our debates over almost anything (wait until we get to religion and politics!!). And the pandas always come out eventually, and then we share a virtual beer, lol!

The most admiral woman states the studies Ihave read. Ty,Kathy Love. I love dR. Oz

 

[kathylove]

Wow! People were typing like mad while I wrote out my "book", haha!

Please note that when I wrote:

"That is why so many of us omnivores are seriously overweight - we may or may not be educated about what, and how much, to eat. BUT - we don't follow through even if we do know. I have met some vegans who are sugarholics - just like me, an omnivore. BUT - the problem with so many on the Standard American Diet (SAD) is that we don't eat nearly enough fresh produce, probably because it is not as tasty as meat and junk food."

I definitely don't mean ALL meat eaters, of course! Just way too many of us!

 

[danielle]

Kathy I did see that it wa hilarious to see these people look at a vegetable like foreign dangerous object. They also did one with truckers where they made them eat healthy on the road and calculated how much food was absorbed on their greasy high fat diet and then on a helthy diet- very interesting stuff

 

[tyflier]

Thats alot of poop right there

And to whoever said you have to supplement when being vegan is uneducated. The only pill I take is birth control and all of my levels (blood test yearly) is perfect

Now, see...what yuo have here, YBH, is a direct insult. Calling me, a person you know nothing about, uneducated is crossing the line.

Go back and read what Dinah posted. It will tell you how often and under what circumstances(and there are many of them) supplements are needed as a vegetarian.

BVTW...do you eat tofu regularly? Tofu is a supplement that is processed from a bean that if eaten raw could be very unhealthy and even highly toxic. What about vgitamins? You take daily vitamin tablets? Iron supplements? Anything like that at all Even herbal remedy mixtures that contain "vital nutrients"? All of those are supplements, and would be included in a vegan diet being supplemented. I just thought you should know that...

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

Now, see...what yuo have here, YBH, is a direct insult. Calling me, a person you know nothing about, uneducated is crossing the line.

Go back and read what Dinah posted. It will tell you how often and under what circumstances(and there are many of them) supplements are needed as a vegetarian.

BVTW...do you eat tofu regularly? Tofu is a supplement that is processed from a bean that if eaten raw could be very unhealthy and even highly toxic. What about vgitamins? You take daily vitamin tablets? Iron supplements? Anything like that at all Even herbal remedy mixtures that contain "vital nutrients"? All of those are supplements, and would be included in a vegan diet being supplemented. I just thought you should know that...

Don't take anything but birth control. I get blood tests every year. Again, my doc has quote said"if only more people would go vegan" Annnd, my blood tests check out perfect every year

 

[tyflier]

Don't take anything but birth control. I get blood tests every year. Again, my doc has quote said"if only more people would go vegan" Annnd, my blood tests check out perfect every year

That's great. You obvisouly know how to lead a very healthy lifestyle. My guess is that you would be incredibly vigilante and healthy regardless of the diet you choose, with or without meat. That's excellent. I also imagine your children will grow with the same dietary vigilance regardless of whether or not they choose to maintain a vegan lifestyle into adulthood. That's even better. Kudos for that.

In my experience only, the vegans and vegetarians I know and have met in my life have never been as vigilant about their health as you seem to be. And I said a long, long, long time ago...my perception of a vegan may very well be skewed because of my personal experiences. Truth is, I know just as many unhealthy meat-eaters as vegans. The only difference is that I do know healthy meat eaters, and I don't know any healthy vegans that do not take any supplements. And really...that's what I said initially. I don't know any. And since we don't know each other...:sidestep:

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

That's great. You obvisouly know how to lead a very healthy lifestyle. My guess is that you would be incredibly vigilante and healthy regardless of the diet you choose, with or without meat. That's excellent. I also imagine your children will grow with the same dietary vigilance regardless of whether or not they choose to maintain a vegan lifestyle into adulthood. That's even better. Kudos for that.

In my experience only, the vegans and vegetarians I know and have met in my life have never been as vigilant about their health as you seem to be. And I said a long, long, long time ago...my perception of a vegan may very well be skewed because of my personal experiences. Truth is, I know just as many unhealthy meat-eaters as vegans. The only difference is that I do know healthy meat eaters, and I don't know any healthy vegans that do not take any supplements. And really...that's what I said initially. I don't know any. And since we don't know each other...:sidestep:

Nice to meet you.
Love,
healthy vegan Tara

 

[dave partington]

What about vgitamins? You take daily vitamin tablets? Iron supplements? Anything like that at all Even herbal remedy mixtures that contain "vital nutrients"? All of those are supplements, and would be included in a vegan diet being supplemented. I just thought you should know that...

Do you mean those manmade synthesized vitamins? Like they put in bleached flour, to make it 'enriched'? Yhat always made a lot of sense, to bleach out the natural goodness, and replace it with synthetics which aren't as easily digested nor absorbed.

Anyone care for a weiner?

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

Do you mean those manmade synthesized vitamins? Like they put in bleached flour, to make it 'enriched'? Yhat always made a lot of sense, to bleach out the natural goodness, and replace it with synthetics which aren't as easily digested nor absorbed.

Anyone care for a weiner?

My point exactly.

 

[kathylove]

Haha! Whenever I think of "enriched" bread (or other similar products), I always think of a little story about white bread that I read many years ago in a nutrition book. It said something like:

"If Dracula flew in your window, drank a bunch of your blood, and then gave you a vitamin shot, would you feel enriched?"

It always stuck in my memory. I try to avoid white bread whenever possible.

 

[Dinah]

Go back and read what Dinah posted. It will tell you how often and under what circumstances(and there are many of them) supplements are needed as a vegetarian.

BVTW...do you eat tofu regularly? Tofu is a supplement that is processed from a bean that if eaten raw could be very unhealthy and even highly toxic. What about vgitamins? You take daily vitamin tablets? Iron supplements? Anything like that at all Even herbal remedy mixtures that contain "vital nutrients"? All of those are supplements, and would be included in a vegan diet being supplemented. I just thought you should know that...

Since I was mistaken and it turns out a Mod was not asking us to stop, I feel like it is ok to respond here. Because this is exactly my point. I make a statement and the it is changed into something else.

Please if you want to use the info I provided as evidence go ahead but quote me right and don't twist the info.

I listed very few examples of when supplements might be needed and I said that most of those times supplements would be recommended across the board not just to a vegetarian or vegan.

And Ty Supplements are in practically everything. Breakfast cereal, bread, rice, almost all grain/cereal/bread products are enriched as is cow milk and almost all processed foods. This was started by congress in the 1940's, and it is done because the processing of the foods destroys a lot of the natural nutrients that would have been in the food normally. So if by merely consuming something that is supplemented is some sort of evidence of dietary deficiencies, then everyone single one of us omnivores included would be caught up in your supplements argument.

 

[dave partington]

TyFlier, YBH, I dont know about your experiences with those "natural supplements", herbals, etc. I started taking some of those products, first day was okay, second day felt great. Day three I was bouncing off the walls with too much energy, going crazy, even by my standards (big room for debate there!)-

I'd always done the synthesized stuff until a vegan friend of mine decided to fix me. Sweet Jesus, if your body isnt accustomed to the 'real real thing', it can be dangerous. I always believed what I'd read/been told- about your body just flushes out the excess...maybe if your body is accustomed to it. Mine sure wasn't used to them. Now I only do them every other or third day, but still have to be careful not to down too much chia with it.

 

[kathylove]

"...I was bouncing off the walls with too much energy, going crazy..."

I want some - I want some! What is it?? Could really use it on feeding and cleaning days!

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

"...I was bouncing off the walls with too much energy, going crazy..."

I want some - I want some! What is it?? Could really use it on feeding and cleaning days!

green tea extract,hot pepper, licorice, milk thistle and yerba mate.

 

[kathylove]

I drink a lot of green tea already. I used a hot pepper supplement for a while as a cardiovascular tonic - but that was a long time ago. But probably haven't used the others. Do they come all together in a supplement? Or do you just take some of each?

 

[yellowbellyhippy]

all are supplements alone. Yerba mate I drink, cayenne I take orally (you have to work your way up.( excellent for weight loss and blood pressure) milk thistle I take orally, if you have questions about herbal mixes,,,,Im not an expert but can tell you what I know.

 

[tyflier]

Since I was mistaken and it turns out a Mod was not asking us to stop, I feel like it is ok to respond here. Because this is exactly my point. I make a statement and the it is changed into something else.

Please feel welcome to respond. As long as we are respectful, nobody is going to ask us to stop. You don't insult me, I won't insult you. Deal?

Please if you want to use the info I provided as evidence go ahead but quote me right and don't twist the info.

Honestly I have not intentionally twisted anything you have said. I fully admit I did not read every word of your citations. No doubt I scanned them looking for mention of supplements and situations where additional nutritional supplements were recommended or advised. IMHO, it is very boring stuff to read through, and I admit I don't care enough to read through it all word for word. I did, however, read several different scenarios and situations wherein supplementation was recommended.

I also took your advice and went to google and read some other stuff. Truth is, I don't care enough to offer citations. As I told you earlier, I fully admit and accept that my use of the word "majority" was skewed by personal experience. I also accept what you say as true. I don't think it matters to you, nor do I think it SHOULD matter to you. But FWIW, I believe you...

I listed very few examples of when supplements might be needed and I said that most of those times supplements would be recommended across the board not just to a vegetarian or vegan.

Well, like I said above, I scanned, and I found them. The fact that I fouind them at all in your citations actually shocked me. I didn't expect to find a single referance or recommendation for supplementation, since that is the argument that the work was used to support.

And as I said above, I did look elsewhere. Not deeply, and not for long, but long enough to fully admit and accept that I was wrong to say "majority", but not wrong in that supplementation is a widely practiced habit among healthy vegans.

And Ty Supplements are in practically everything. Breakfast cereal, bread, rice, almost all grain/cereal/bread products are enriched as is cow milk and almost all processed foods. This was started by congress in the 1940's, and it is done because the processing of the foods destroys a lot of the natural nutrients that would have been in the food normally. So if by merely consuming something that is supplemented is some sort of evidence of dietary deficiencies, then everyone single one of us omnivores included would be caught up in your supplements argument.

Yea...I realize that. That this is not the type of "supplements" I am talking about, and I honestly thought you realized that. I am referring to a morning ritual of waking up and popping 2, 3, 4, 5, 6....whatever..."herbal supplement" pills, and a couple "daily vitamins", and calling it "more healthy" than a nutritionaly balanced omnivorous diet, meat and all.

And just for the record...my daughter doesn't know what white bread is, either. I know I am not the healthiest person on the planet. Forget that I smoke too many cigarettes, drink too much coffee, and enjoy good beer. I'm a reasonably healthy individual. I can hike with the best of 'em, and fairly keep up. I just don't run...unless I'm being chased...

Ultimately, Dinah, I honestly have never intentionally misquoted or misrepresented your words. I told you that I accepted your cites the very first time you posted them. And EVERY time you posted them. I never said you were "wrong" about anything...

 

[Dinah]

drink too much coffee, and enjoy good beer.

Me too! Ao after this discussion we should go have some, but really well have to decide on one or the other because I don't really like them together. I try to be moderate and limit myself to one vice at a time

 

[Dinah]

And for what it is worth, I post very specific info, so scanning through is bound to cause some havoc. Especially since nutriton in the clinical sense is complex and multifaceted. It doesn't at all help that I am a stickler for accuracy and specificity. Before I had kids and decided to stay home, I was an accountant (read that as OCD, and anal retentive)....no offense to any accountants out there but being in charge of the amount of money I was in charge of had that effect on me personally.